WARD BASED HIS STORY ON ORIGINAL "THE BEALE PAPERS" PUBLISHED 1850

[Rebel - KGC]

I wonder how many people would have paid 50 cents for that pamphlet? It would be like spending $13.00 today for that item.

INDEED!

 

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[ECS]

"Thomas J. Beale." The man who held romantic duel with old man Risque? Hmmmm.......
Perhaps there is more to the story then "you want" to believe?

Was it a "romantic" duel?
Not much romance in taking a round.
...but that's my opinion, I could be wrong, because it hurts like....
not my concept of romance.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

"Thomas J. Beale." The man who held romantic duel with old man Risque? Hmmmm.......
Perhaps there is more to the story then "you want" to believe?

NAW... it was Thomas Beale, Sr. who had THE DUEL", in Fincastle, Va. (North of Roanoke, Va.).

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Was it a "romantic" duel?
Not much romance in taking a round.
...but that's my opinion, I could be wrong, because it hurts like....
not my concept of romance.

"Romantic"...? As if over "SWEET Judy" Hancock...? NOPE! FAMILY HONOR! Judy was "kin" to JOHN HANCOCK (DOI), and KIN to MRS. JB Risque. Before marrying Risque, SHE was a HANCOCK! R & I on THIS! So NOW, we KNOW... JOHN HANCOCK (DOI) to MRS. JB Risque, on down the "FAMILY LINE" to JB Ward, the Hutter BROS.; take it from there. AND! Thomas Beale, Sr. was NOT married, living with the woman, had a SON (Thomas Beale, Jr.), then abandoned the two, after "THE DUEL".... AND! Skedaddled on down to New Orleans!

 

[bigscoop]

NAW... it was Thomas Beale, Sr. who had THE DUEL", in Fincastle, Va. (North of Roanoke, Va.).

That was my point, it was not a TJB that had duel with Risque, it was a TB. The main character in the Beale Papers was a TJB, not a TB.

 

[ECS]

That was my point, it was not a TJB that had duel with Risque, it was a TB. The main character in the Beale Papers was a TJB, not a TB.

Why then, does everyone consider Thomas Beale of New Orleans the "Beale" of the story?

 

[bigscoop]

Why then, does everyone consider Thomas Beale of New Orleans the "Beale" of the story?

Good question. Perhaps it's due to all the local romance and lore that has become attached to the local TB who went to New Orleans. In New Orleans we find this TB and others, some of them even being captains. But not a single TJB in the bunch. The author has made clear that nobody in the local area apparently knew TJB upon his arrival and the Harts have, for some unexplained reason, surmised TJB to carry the identity of Thomas Jefferson Beale. How the Harts arrived at this is anyone's guess but very clearly TJB is not the same identity as TB and just because the story's TJB was an elected captain is not to say that he was also a captain of anything else at any other time. So, "Why then, does everyone consider Thomas Beale of New Orleans the "Beale" of the story?" Good question. As the evidence stands now it could very easily be that TJB never even visited New Orleans as there is absolutely nothing of record to support that a TJB did.

Also, in regards to the local TB, there is absolutely no record of this Thomas Beale ever using just his initials upon any documents and certainly not TJB, or any use of the middle initial "J" for that matter. So why only the "TJB" on the alleged letters? Clearly, all of the evidence points to a different man/identity.

 

[bigscoop]

Look, I have said many times in these forums that the fiction theory is a very strong “theory”. However, it certainly faces its own set of problems, and they are:

We do have, as a matter of record, a TJB that existed in Richmond, Virginia, and he was still there in 1884, just one year prior to the pamphlet's publication. This being the same city that our unknown author claimed to have had important business affairs.

We have an unknown author who used real identities in a story that he claims to contain authentic statements regarding a potentially illegal enterprise, this bringing into play some very real liability concerns for an author who has determined to remain anonymous, and perhaps with good reason.

And last, we have a highly respected local researcher, Innis, who has confirmed the existence of the iron box and contents.

So can it be positively established that the story is just a work of simple fiction? No. As of today, as long as these three issues remain on the table any fiction conclusion will fail to hold water, regardless how well it may appear to be arranged.

 

[ECS]

How did the Otey family come into possession of the iron box that Pauline Innis observed?
Where is that iron box today?
What about the iron box and DOI found in an old stove by Justintime?
Two iron boxes with different contents that have been claimed to be related to the Beale story.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

That was my point, it was not a TJB that had duel with Risque, it was a TB. The main character in the Beale Papers was a TJB, not a TB.

Yes... Thomas J. Beale.

 

[bigscoop]

How did the Otey family come into possession of the iron box that Pauline Innis observed?
Where is that iron box today?

All good questions that have no apparent answers? According to Innis, and this is from memory so give me some latitude, she claimed that the Oteys still possessed the iron box and she was allowed to examine it and the contents. How the Oteys came into possession of the box I don't recall if she said or not? But apparently the Oteys and Innis felt it was the correct box. Franklin has said that the iron box still exist in a private estate somewhere but nobody has ever gained access to it or seen it so who can really say? Personally, I doubt the box exist, but I could also be wrong, so.....

 

[ECS]

Franklin also mentioned that George Hart directed Pauline Innis to the Oteys as having the box.
In the HART PAPERS, there is no mention of an iron box- which makes one wonder how he knew about the Oteys possession of this iron box and its contents.
Is it possible that the cipher copies Innis observed where some of the copies Clayton Hart made for Hazelwood?
Clayton was, after all, married to an Otey.

 

[bigscoop]

Franklin also mentioned that George Hart directed Pauline Innis to the Oteys as having the box.
In the HART PAPERS, there is no mention of an iron box- which makes one wonder how he knew about the Oteys possession of this iron box and its contents.
Is it possible that the cipher copies Innis observed where some of the copies Clayton Hart made for Hazelwood?
Clayton was, after all, married to an Otey.

Hard to say. All we know is that Pauline Innis confirmed the existence of the iron box and contents, as apparently did George Hart, and I guess, the Oteys as well. So now there are three sources confirming the existence of the iron box. What stands out in all of this is Innis, a respected local researcher who built her reputation around the Beale mystery. This is why I ask, "Did she really see the iron box and contents?" And if not, ""Why did she say that she had?" As it is, and given her background and reputation, we just about have to accept that possibly she did.

 

[bigscoop]

We do have, as a matter of record, a TJB that existed in Richmond, Virginia, and he was still there in 1884, just one year prior to the pamphlet's publication. This being the same city that our unknown author claimed to have had important business affairs.

We have an unknown author who used real identities in a story that he claims to contain authentic statements regarding a potentially illegal enterprise, this bringing into play some very real liability concerns for an author who has determined to remain anonymous, and perhaps with good reason.

And last, we have a highly respected local researcher/author, Innis, who has confirmed the existence of the iron box and contents.

Pauline Innis, the Harts & Oteys, confirmed the existence of the iron box, however unlikely it might seem. And, the existence of a TJB is also confirmed as are the potential liability concerns. Now we can proceed to assume whatever we want/need to assume in regards to all of these issues but it won't make those assumptions fact. So the burning unkowns are;

Is this Richmond TJB part of the story in some way?
Why did the author really hide his identity?
Did Innis, Oteys, Harts actually possess/examine the real iron box?
Provided conclusive answers to all of these questions and win the grand prize, an iron box full of fresh Twinkies.

 

[ECS]

Hard to say. All we know is that Pauline Innis confirmed the existence of the iron box and contents, as apparently did George Hart, and I guess, the Oteys as well. So now there are three sources confirming the existence of the iron box. What stands out in all of this is Innis, a respected local researcher who built her reputation around the Beale mystery. This is why I ask, "Did she really see the iron box and contents?" And if not, ""Why did she say that she had?" As it is, and given her background and reputation, we just about have to accept that possibly she did.

Pauline Innis was not a "local researcher", but a Washington DC socialite who built her reputation on a government protocol and etiquet handbook, not the Beale mystery.
In the Hart Papers, an iron box is never mentioned.
If this iron box was it possession of the Oteys, Clayton Hart's inlaws, why was it never mentioned as part of their search for the Beale treasure in the Hart Papers?
Could the contents of the Otey box have been copies that Clayton made for Hazelwood, that began the Hart's search?
Peter Viemeister, who did intensive research on the Beale story, never mentioned a Thomas J Beale of Jackson Ward, Richmond, as being the Beale of the Beale Papers. Did he look int thi man, then dismiss this Beale as being involved with the Beale story?

 

[bigscoop]

Pauline Innis was not a "local researcher", but a Washington DC socialite who built her reputation on a government protocol and etiquet handbook, not the Beale mystery.
In the Hart Papers, an iron box is never mentioned.
If this iron box was it possession of the Oteys, Clayton Hart's inlaws, why was it never mentioned as part of their search for the Beale treasure in the Hart Papers?
Could the contents of the Otey box have been copies that Clayton made for Hazelwood, that began the Hart's search?
Peter Viemeister, who did intensive research on the Beale story, never mentioned a Thomas J Beale of Jackson Ward, Richmond, as being the Beale of the Beale Papers. Did he look int thi man, then dismiss this Beale as being involved with the Beale story?

In defense of your fiction theory you are "assuming" a great deal. First, PV was a local researcher and most of his research was confined to that arena so likely he never even discovered the TJB of Richmond. Second, regardless of your personal opinion of Innis, Oteys, Harts, the claim that the iron box existed still stands unless you can prove otherwise. In our heads we can manufacture all of the "possibilities" we want but this doesn't mean they disprove anything or that they should be considered to be fact. Did Pauline, Oteys, Harts manufacture the iron box in some way? Could be, who knows, but their word says otherwise and there has been presented no reason to discredit any of them or their claims. You even bulked at discrediting their word when you have everything to gain by discrediting those claims. I think this speaks volumes.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Good question. Perhaps it's due to all the local romance and lore that has become attached to the local TB who went to New Orleans. In New Orleans we find this TB and others, some of them even being captains. But not a single TJB in the bunch. The author has made clear that nobody in the local area apparently knew TJB upon his arrival and the Harts have, for some unexplained reason, surmised TJB to carry the identity of Thomas Jefferson Beale. How the Harts arrived at this is anyone's guess but very clearly TJB is not the same identity as TB and just because the story's TJB was an elected captain is not to say that he was also a captain of anything else at any other time. So, "Why then, does everyone consider Thomas Beale of New Orleans the "Beale" of the story?" Good question. As the evidence stands now it could very easily be that TJB never even visited New Orleans as there is absolutely nothing of record to support that a TJB did.

Also, in regards to the local TB, there is absolutely no record of this Thomas Beale ever using just his initials upon any documents and certainly not TJB, or any use of the middle initial "J" for that matter. So why only the "TJB" on the alleged letters? Clearly, all of the evidence points to a different man/identity.

HOWEVER! One researcher indicated that the name, "THOMAS BEALE" was ONLY used as a "literary device" for "Thomas J. Beale" in the BP Pamphlet... NOT for an ACTUAL "Person". NOT Thomas Beale, Sr., NOT Thomas Beale, Jr.; NOR, a REAL... Thomas Jefferson Beale. From several sources; will try to find "NET" source, so ALL can see it & "PONDER". Java Zone will soon be OPEN!

 

[ECS]

It was the Harts that "created" the Thomas "JEFFERSON" Beale, which Pauline Innis incorporated into her book.

 

[ECS]

... regardless of your personal opinion of Innis, Oteys, Harts, the claim that the iron box existed still stands unless you can prove otherwise... You even bulked at discrediting their word when you have everything to gain by discrediting those claims...

One can not discredit that which can not be confirmed or denied.

 

[bigscoop]

One can not discredit that which can not be confirmed or denied.

Exactly. All we can do is form opinions, and you know what they say about those.....everybody has one.