WARD BASED HIS STORY ON ORIGINAL "THE BEALE PAPERS" PUBLISHED 1850

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ECS said:
It all goes back to the Hutters,Ward,and Sherman,a western/treasure dime novel writer-no Bonaparte,Galveston,Olive & Vine,LaFitte are mentioned or refered to in the 1885 Beale Papers.
All other outside inference is made by those seeking to prove the Beale story really happened,because if the story is suspect,the two unsolved ciphers are suspect,and the existence of the treasure is suspect.
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Title leads to suspicion of its origin/meaning as more is read ,an example being swarthy.Debate can arise over nationality of origin of name too.
Jefferson's efforts of cultivating grapes led to French being only survivors at his site.Consultation with french arborists not out of realm of possibility.Despite not applauding their efforts here.While much business conducted quietly it takes little to arouse speculation and add intrigue to boring days with an international flair,a novel worth more than a dime if a novel.Title taken as French all it takes to look for such,same with English setting reader on multiple paths early.Multiplicity follows in number of ciphers making more challenge to sort. Once focus reveals goose tracks, interest wanes except (my) speculation its to great a scheme of hidden secrets by mysterious factions as seems intended.
 

Old Bookaroo said:
bigscoop:

Sherlock Holmes said: "Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth."

and

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo
Click to expand...

Well said, and if we apply this same logic to the Ward, Sherman, Hutter, Fiction theory then there is absolutely no evidence to support any of it. You guys can continue to keep beating the same old "fiction/dime novel/Sherlock" drums until the cows come home, but the bottom lines is that, "None of it can be proven to make it established fact." Suggesting the fiction/dime novel theory is one thing, but to make the claim as if fact is quite another indeed. "Best speculative guess"....that's all it amounts to, nothing more.

"Eliminate all other factors, and the one that remains must be the truth." So you're saying that you have indeed conclusively eliminated all these other possible factors with clear and concise evidence? Then please present the information you have that "eliminates" my own possible theory. I'd sure like to see those records or documents so I could quit looking for them. You see, I'm constantly keeping an eye out for those records or documents that disprove my current path and I have yet to uncover them. So please, feel free to share. Here's your chance to do as Sherlock said, "Eliminate all the other possible factors."

Start here. Eliminate these facts:

In The Beale Pamphlet Morriss claims that Beale’s two visits at his hotel took place on January 1820 and January
1822. Both of these dates fall only eleven months behind the dates of the signing and the ratification of the Adams Onis
Treaty.

Treaty signing date: February 1819
Beale’s first visit: January 1820
11 months
Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
Beale’s second visit: January 1822
11 months

Going a step further it’s interesting to note that both deposit dates fall closely in order between the dates in the above
table, nine and ten months respectively.

Treaty signing date: February 1819
(9 months)
First Deposit date: November 1819
(2 months)
Beale’s first visit: January 1820
11 months
Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
(10 months)
Second Deposit date: December 1821
(1 month)
Beale’s second visit: January 1822
11 months
 

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bigscoop said:
... I love the way you so hardily defend your own highly speculative theory with such conclusive appeal and concealed uncertainty. If you really believed in what you preach to be fact you wouldn't keep investigating all these other claims as you frequently do. But that's ok, nothing wrong with keeping the door of uncertainty ajar just in case... And the Hutters and Sherman are mentioned in the Beale Pamphlet where, exactly? And I'm quoting you here, "All other outside inference is made by those seeking to prove the Beale story is".....is, fiction?
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As creators of the 1885 Beale Papers,the Hutters and Sherman would be included in the pamphlet.Why would they?
As for "outside inference",is that not an example of what you imply with Adama Onis Treaty,LaFitte,Bonaparte,Girard,Lallemand,and Patterson?None of this is mentioned in the 1885 Beale Papers.
As for Beale's visit to Morriss,which Beale was it? Thomas Beale Sr died in New Orleans,Sept 1820,Thomas Beale Jr died in New Orleans,Oct 1823.
As I have mentioned,if the story is suspect and you do seem to agree on this point,it is very possible that the dates, places, and names contained in Beale 1885,were used as a historical literary device in a work of fiction.
As hard as one tries to piece events and people during the timeline in Beale 1885,it is all speculation because of the lack of any hard solid evidence that there is any connection contained in the Beale story of the pamphlet.
 

Robert MORRISS didn't have a Hotel; 1823 was the WASHINGTON Hotel. Robert MORRIS did PROBABLY "board" TJB in 1820 & 1822...in his HOME! MAJOR "confusion" Robert MORRISS vs Robert MORRIS, Mayor of Lynchburg, Va. in 1813; on MANY "Town Committees"... not MORRISS!
 

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ECS said:
As creators of the 1885 Beale Papers,the Hutters and Sherman would be included in the pamphlet.Why would they?
As for "outside inference",is that not an example of what you imply with Adama Onis Treaty,LaFitte,Bonaparte,Girard,Lallemand,and Patterson?None of this is mentioned in the 1885 Beale Papers.
As for Beale's visit to Morriss,which Beale was it? Thomas Beale Sr died in New Orleans,Sept 1820,Thomas Beale Jr died in New Orleans,Oct 1823.
As I have mentioned,if the story is suspect and you do seem to agree on this point,it is very possible that the dates, places, and names contained in Beale 1885,were used as a historical literary device in a work of fiction.
As hard as one tries to piece events and people during the timeline in Beale 1885,it is all speculation because of the lack of any hard solid evidence that there is any connection contained in the Beale story of the pamphlet.
Click to expand...

"As creators of the 1885 Beale Papers,the Hutters and Sherman would be included in the pamphlet.Why would they?
As for "outside inference",is that not an example of what you imply with Adama Onis Treaty,LaFitte,Bonaparte,Girard,Lallemand,and Patterson?None of this is mentioned in the 1885 Beale Papers."

Accepted, and applying this same exact logic nor is Sherman or Hutter mentioned in the pamphlet. And your point? As this was exactly mine. Since some of you want to keep referencing the brilliant mind and practices of the created fictional character, Sherlock Holmes, let me introduce Dr. Spock, "Your application of this fictional logic is illogical since it is fictional, and also because you refuse to apply it but only where it suits you." Your choice of factors is also suspect in the same manner, as it seems you want to be able to pick and choose which outside factors can be included and which ones cannot? i.e., Hutter and Sherman can be included even thought there is absolutely no mention of them in the pamphlet and absolutely no evidence to even suggest that they had anything at all to do with it, or that they even liked Ward or spent any amount of time associating with him. Interesting, but I think I'll just stay on the current path.
 

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Old Bookaroo said:
bigscoop:

Was there a hotel to stay in in 1820? Or 1822?

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo
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Sure. Which city? Lynchburg, Richmond? There were also many, I guess you could call them Bed & Breakfast in the region. But I'm sure you already know all this. Look, like I said before, you can keep beating the same fiction/dime novel drums and while I certainly keep the door open to that very possibility I require proof, something documented or recorded somewhere, such as in a letter, a personal diary, etc. And so I'll keep looking for that conclusive proof one way or the other, until then the door will remain open, just as it is for you, which, whether you admit it or not, is why you're still actively involved in the mystery and these debates. Otherwise you wouldn't be wasting your time here. I know I certainly wouldn't be.
 

Very first REAL Hotel in OLD Lynchburg, VIRGINIA was the FRANKLIN HOTEL... 1817, near the riverfront. First BRICK hotel...
by Mr. Brown (Brick-mason), who ALSO did OLD UVA for Thomas Jefferson (Academical Village). It was one mile from Court Square in Charlottesville, VIRGINIA; @ 2 miles from Little Mountain (Monticello). "Google" Franklin Hotel, 1817... Lynchburg, VIRGINIA. It was on the corner of Main Street & 11th Street; TODAY... a Mexican Restaurant & parking lot.
 

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bigscoop said:
... Look, like I said before, you can keep beating the same fiction/dime novel drums and while I certainly keep the door open to that very possibility I require proof, something documented or recorded somewhere, such as in a letter, a personal diary, etc. And so I'll keep looking for that conclusive proof one way or the other...
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That's why the Beale treasure story endures-THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF THAT THE STORY IS REAL...Drum roll-fiction western/treasure dime novel of 1885.
 

ECS said:
That's why the Beale treasure story endures-THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF THAT THE STORY IS REAL...Drum roll-fiction western/treasure dime novel of 1885.
Click to expand...

If you could produce any measure of proof supporting that conclusive claim I'd be fine with it, but you can't. Look, the fiction claim presents some strong supporting evidence, this is readily accepted, I've even made that statement many times in the past. But you guys are simply missing the point, "the evidence cannot be presented with conclusive proof backing that evidence." i.e., If Hutter is to be party to the creating of that pamphlet then you must be able to establish his involvement with some means of proof to that claim. At this point, you can't even establish that Ward, Sherman, Hutter were even on speaking terms. Granted, they probably were, but you can't even establish that much. You're just assuming they were. Here is the big difference in what we each accept as evidence and proof. You readily accept that the lack of proof means it can't be so, and yet you have even allowed your own assumptions to stop your search for that proof. So keep digging, you may just find a way to establish that Ward, Sherman, and Hutter did associate and that they did indeed collaborate on the pamphlet. Establish those things and you have your provenance. Without it you have zero. This is exactly why myself and others keep looking for that conclusive proof.

So let us end these foolish debates now as they serve no purpose towards the progress of establishing the truth. :thumbsup:
 

CORRECT, "MORRISS" was confused. PROBABLY meant Robert MORRIS boarding TJB in his BIG old house/home... MAY have called it WASHINGTON INN. Robert MORRIS was wealthy, former MAYOR of Lynchburg, VIRGINIA in 1813; on MANY committees having to do with OLD Lynchburg, VIRGINIA... HISTORY! WASHINGTON HOTEL... 1823.
 

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And so with LaFitte's memoirs,a Bonaparte involvement,Girard and Patterson,Lallemand,and now Cochrane has been added to the tale-what do you accept as evidence and proof? Where is the provenance that connects these people to the Beale story and treasure?
The "foolish debates" continue because you offer slim evidence and proof on a French/Bonaparte,and now a Greek connection in Lynchburg,but lack the provenance to support such claims.,which serve no purpose towards the progress of establishing the truth.Present something solid,please.
 

bigscoop said:
Well said, and if we apply this same logic to the Ward, Sherman, Hutter, Fiction theory then there is absolutely no evidence to support any of it. You guys can continue to keep beating the same old "fiction/dime novel/Sherlock" drums until the cows come home, but the bottom lines is that, "None of it can be proven to make it established fact." Suggesting the fiction/dime novel theory is one thing, but to make the claim as if fact is quite another indeed. "Best speculative guess"....that's all it amounts to, nothing more.

"Eliminate all other factors, and the one that remains must be the truth." So you're saying that you have indeed conclusively eliminated all these other possible factors with clear and concise evidence? Then please present the information you have that "eliminates" my own possible theory. I'd sure like to see those records or documents so I could quit looking for them. You see, I'm constantly keeping an eye out for those records or documents that disprove my current path and I have yet to uncover them. So please, feel free to share. Here's your chance to do as Sherlock said, "Eliminate all the other possible factors."

Start here. Eliminate these facts:

In The Beale Pamphlet Morriss claims that Beale’s two visits at his hotel took place on January 1820 and January
1822. Both of these dates fall only eleven months behind the dates of the signing and the ratification of the Adams Onis
Treaty.

Treaty signing date: February 1819
Beale’s first visit: January 1820
11 months
Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
Beale’s second visit: January 1822
11 months

Going a step further it’s interesting to note that both deposit dates fall closely in order between the dates in the above
table, nine and ten months respectively.

Treaty signing date: February 1819
(9 months)
First Deposit date: November 1819
(2 months)
Beale’s first visit: January 1820
11 months
Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
(10 months)
Second Deposit date: December 1821
(1 month)
Beale’s second visit: January 1822
11 months
Click to expand...

I don,t doubt its been checked into ,times of year during visits being "winter" months, all.
 

ECS said:
And so with LaFitte's memoirs,a Bonaparte involvement,Girard and Patterson,Lallemand,and now Cochrane has been added to the tale-what do you accept as evidence and proof? Where is the provenance that connects these people to the Beale story and treasure?
The "foolish debates" continue because you offer slim evidence and proof on a French/Bonaparte,and now a Greek connection in Lynchburg,but lack the provenance to support such claims.,which serve no purpose towards the progress of establishing the truth.Present something solid,please.
Click to expand...

One theory IS that the "swarthy one" was Jean or Pierre Lafitte, or was the "mysterious boarder" with Robert MORRISS...
 

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