Wagoner's Lost Ledge

[cuzimloony]

If you saw the video, this little furry guy was mentioned:

And this is the water at (well, kinda at) Whiskey Spring. Looking at the pic, the water actually looks quite clear........strange what being tired and winded does to perception.

 

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[cuzimloony]

If you watch the end of the video, Im 2/3 the way out of that Whiskey Valley area (headed toward Miners Needle). Im like 1, maybe 2, ridges away from Miners Needle at that point and you STILL can't see it.

 

[SPARTANOC]

If you watch the end of the video, Im 2/3 the way out of that Whiskey Valley area (headed toward Miners Needle). Im like 1, maybe 2, ridges away from Miners Needle at that point and you STILL can't see it.

With regards to the Wagoner's details - didn't the story (at least the one that Jim posted), state that Miner's needle should be at your South AND Weaver's Needle to kept at a 3 mile distance? The story never mentions that you MUST be able to SEE them both at the same time, in the area of the Wagoner's spot. It just states those two points as reference - not that they MUST be seen simultaneously. Right?

What I DO know is, that the Jacob Waltz story - regarding Weaver's Needle and the 3 Peaks seen as one, must be seen at the same time - at the correct location. Meaning while at the correct spot, if you look to the North - you'll see 3 Peaks as one, and looking to the South - you'll see Weaver's Needle.

Am I correct in my perspective regarding the differences of said stories?

-SpartanOC

 

[cuzimloony]

With regards to the Wagoner's details - didn't the story (at least the one that Jim posted), state that Miner's needle should be at your South AND Weaver's Needle to kept at a 3 mile distance? The story never mentions that you MUST be able to SEE them both at the same time, in the area of the Wagoner's spot. It just states those two points as reference - not that they MUST be seen simultaneously. Right?

What I DO know is, that the Jacob Waltz story - regarding Weaver's Needle and the 3 Peaks seen as one, must be seen at the same time - at the correct location. Meaning while at the correct spot, if you look to the North - you'll see 3 Peaks as one, and looking to the South - you'll see Weaver's Needle.

Am I correct in my perspective regarding the differences of said stories?

-SpartanOC

I think you are correct. My mistake. But didn't the Wagoner's story also say a sick old man with breathing problems hiked this area with only a canteen and a suitcase (or rucksack depending on who's telling the yarn)....? ...and that this same man walked south to north completely through the Sups to Goldfield in what..... three days? Which part of the story should I take seriously and which part is made up? Surely the location described must be real.........

 

[SPARTANOC]

I think you are correct. My mistake. But didn't the Wagoner's story also say a sick old man with breathing problems hiked this area with only a canteen and a suitcase (or rucksack depending on who's telling the yarn)....? ...and that this same man walked south to north completely through the Sups to Goldfield in what..... three days? I guess we choose what we believe.

It did mention that he supposedly walked through the Supes to get to the Southern most part of the area just to reach Florence. I don't believe for one moment - that he walked THROUGH the entire Supes. No one in their right mind would do that. It would be much easier to just walk in a Southern path, along the Western side of the Supes. This way - he would have made better time in his journey.

There's just no way he walked through it in 3 days with what supplies he supposedly had (one canteen). I'll go through 3 litters of water before the days ended as an example.

-SpartanOC

 

[markmar]

Marius, I would say that the only conspiracy here is that Barry Storm consistently misdirected people. After all these years I'm still convinced that John G. Climenson changed his name to Barry Storm so his initials would be B.S.

That Storm could be a bull$hit artist is well-known and demonstrated. I don't hold it against him: Who in their right mind would write a book, sending the masses right to a treasure that the author was actually looking for?

If one believes that these old legends are going to lead to a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, all I can say is get in line...join the masses of the excited TH'ers that run off into the desert with their dog-eared treasure book and associated maps. The excitement eventually wears off...some realize they've been had, while a few never give up their belief in their "bible". To each his own.

But there are also those that try to find the wheat in all the chaff. No harm in that either.

Jim, I totally agree with you. Climenson wrote a lot of BS, trying to make a treasure story to looks like a drama movie. He didn't understand how sometimes he had contradicted himself , comparing the clues/evidences he had in regards to the stories with what he wrote down on the paper.
One example is the Wagoner story: he had the map which shows clearly the route Wagoner hiked from Randolf Canyon until he found the ledge, and he wrote Wagoner make a whole tour of the Superstitions in regards to find the gold ledge. The Wagoner's map describes the route Wagoner hiked the first time he found the gold ledge and not the route he used to follow every time he was going there.
The only truth written by BS in this story, is a hidden clue/meaning in his text, which I believe he didn't understand by himself but speaks a lot about the region the Wagoner's gold mine/prospect is located.

 

[cuzimloony]

It did mention that he supposedly walked through the Supes to get to the Southern most part of the area just to reach Florence. I don't believe for one moment - that he walked THROUGH the entire Supes. No one in their right mind would do that. It would be much easier to just walk in a Southern path, along the Western side of the Supes. This way - he would have made better time in his journey.

There's just no way he walked through it in 3 days with what supplies he supposedly had (one canteen). I'll go through 3 litters of water before the days ended as an example.

-SpartanOC

It did mention that he supposedly walked through the Supes to get to the Southern most part of the area just to reach Florence. I don't believe for one moment - that he walked THROUGH the entire Supes. No one in their right mind would do that. It would be much easier to just walk in a Southern path, along the Western side of the Supes. This way - he would have made better time in his journey.

There's just no way he walked through it in 3 days with what supplies he supposedly had (one canteen). I'll go through 3 litters of water before the days ended as an example.

-SpartanOC

On my in-and-out at Whisky Springs, I drank 5 liters of water and I ran out about a mile from the TH on my way out.

 

[cuzimloony]

On my in-and-out at Whisky Springs, I drank 5 liters of water and I ran out about a mile from the TH.

Jim, I totally agree with you. Climenson wrote a lot of BS, trying to make a treasure story to looks like a drama movie. He didn't understand how sometimes he had contradicted himself , comparing the clues/evidences he had in regards to the stories with what he wrote down on the paper.
One example is the Wagoner story: he had the map which shows clearly the route Wagoner hiked from Randolf Canyon until he found the ledge, and he wrote Wagoner make a whole tour of the Superstitions in regards to find the gold ledge. The Wagoner's map describes the route Wagoner hiked the first time he found the gold ledge and not the route he used to follow every time he was going there.
The only truth written by BS in this story, is a hidden clue/meaning in his text, which I believe he didn't understand by himself but speaks a lot about the region the Wagoner's gold mine/prospect is located.

Ok....... markmar, please correct me where I'm wrong. I was under the impression that the initial Wagoner trip was supposed to be from the north, stopping around trap springs area (presumably) and then headed south through (possibly) Whiskey Springs. Then, his return trips were via Red Tanks trail, around Picacho Butte and then up (possibly) Whiskey Springs. Am I wrong about that or am I just not understanding what you are saying. Im not being confrontational. It's a genuine question.

 

[markmar]

Ok....... markmar, please correct me where I'm wrong. I was under the impression that the initial Wagoner trip was supposed to be from the north, stopping around trap springs area (presumably) and then headed south through (possibly) Whiskey Springs. Then, his return trips were via Red Tanks trail, around Picacho Butte and then up (possibly) Whiskey Springs. Am I wrong about that or am I just not understanding what you are saying. Im not being confrontational. It's a genuine question.

Genuine answer to a genuine question: Wagoner was never hiking the same route with that in the map after the gold has been found.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Some more food for thought:

Anyone ever wonder why BS never mentions Whiskey Springs Canyon in his map or in his story? It sure strikes me as a glaring omission, especially on his map.

Arizona went dry as of 01 January 1915. Years before national prohibition was passed.

The locals named that canyon "Whiskey Springs Canyon", because everyone knew that moonshiners had a permanent operation there. Because there was, at the time, a good supply of the cold water needed to condense the squeezins from the numerous stills there. Some think the reason the cave up in LaBarge is known as "Hermans Cave", is because he provided an "overwatch" of the area from there. It's right between the only two escape routes. Regardless of which direction law enforcement may be approaching from, they could be seen from above there. The cave was a well-known logistics area supporting the distilling operation.

So if everyone called the area "Whiskey Springs", why didn't BS know what it was called, and even could be accused of not knowing it was even there (based on the fact he left it off his map)?

BS was not a local. Back when BS wrote his story, there was only one map of the area widely available. CIL, take a look at your Florence Quadrangle. There were two versions, one from 1900 and one from 1902, IIRC.

You will see that there is no name for Whiskey Springs Canyon. It just looks like a little creek with no name. This is because the map was made before AZ prohibition and it had not yet been named by the locals due to the moonshining that took place there.

The next widely available map of the area wouldn't become available until 1966. This map is the Weavers Needle quad, and it shows Whiskey Springs Canyon, so named. This was long after BS wrote his book and articles on Wagoners Lost Ledge.

BS liked to think the ledge was located in that area because he found out that this was the location Howland found two pieces of rich gold in quartz float. These are the "X's" on Storm's map. Storm says the float was found in 1933, but his memory or story is off...Howland found the two rich pieces of ore in 1927.

I think BS made the map and story up as he went, basing the story on others he'd heard.

Tom K talks about 7 mine shafts in his version. Many know where these shafts are. They're not up by Miner's Needle. The guy who showed them to me had cleaned out a few, and he was of the opinion that they were prospect holes dug by prospectors in the 1870's.

 

[cuzimloony]

Genuine answer to a genuine question: Wagoner was never hiking the same route with that in the map after the gold has been found.

If the gold was in Whisky Springs area, there is only 2 ways in, from the north or from the south. You can get to the north via LaBarge and Red Tanks, you can get to the south via Lost Dutchman trail to Whiskey Springs trail. Those are really the only options IF Whiskey Springs is the target area. Do you know which way he hiked, or do you only know that he didn't hike what is on the map?

 

[cuzimloony]

Some more food for thought:

Anyone ever wonder why BS never mentions Whiskey Springs Canyon in his map or in his story? It sure strikes me as a glaring omission, especially on his map.

Arizona went dry as of 01 January 1915. Years before national prohibition was passed.

The locals named that canyon "Whiskey Springs Canyon", because everyone knew that moonshiners had a permanent operation there. Because there was, at the time, a good supply of the cold water needed to condense the squeezins from the numerous stills there. Some think the reason the cave up in LaBarge is known as "Hermans Cave", is because he provided an "overwatch" of the area from there. It's right between the only two escape routes. Regardless of which direction law enforcement may be approaching from, they could be seen from above there. The cave was a well-known logistics area supporting the distilling operation.

So if everyone called the area "Whiskey Springs", why didn't BS know what it was called, and even could be accused of not knowing it was even there (based on the fact he left it off his map)?

BS was not a local. Back when BS wrote his story, there was only one map of the area widely available. CIL, take a look at your Florence Quadrangle. There were two versions, one from 1900 and one from 1902, IIRC.

You will see that there is no name for Whiskey Springs Canyon. It just looks like a little creek with no name. This is because the map was made before AZ prohibition and it had not yet been named by the locals due to the moonshining that took place there.

The next widely available map of the area wouldn't become available until 1966. This map is the Weavers Needle quad, and it shows Whiskey Springs Canyon, so named. This was long after BS wrote his book and articles on Wagoners Lost Ledge.

BS liked to think the ledge was located in that area because he found out that this was the location Howland found two pieces of rich gold in quartz float. These are the "X's" on Storm's map. Storm says the float was found in 1933, but his memory or story is off...Howland found the two rich pieces of ore in 1927.

I think BS made the map and story up as he went, basing the story on others he'd heard.

Tom K talks about 7 mine shafts in his version. Many know where these shafts are. They're not up by Miner's Needle. The guy who showed them to me had cleaned out a few, and he was of the opinion that they were prospect holes dug by prospectors in the 1870's.

Excellent post! I just looked at my quadrangle...... no Whiskey Springs. Very very good points. Now you have me interested in Herman's cave. I must have been within walking distance of it, but I still haven't worked out exactly where it is yet. I just know it' in the area. I wonder where Howland found that quarts and I'm wondering even more where those shafts are..... Looks like another trip is in order. Thank you sir!

 

[markmar]

If the gold was in Whisky Springs area, there is only 2 ways in, from the north or from the south. You can get to the north via LaBarge and Red Tanks, you can get to the south via Lost Dutchman trail to Whiskey Springs trail. Those are really the only options IF Whiskey Springs is the target area. Do you know which way he hiked, or do you only know that he didn't hike what is on the map?

Find the "hidden" clue and you will find the mine. There are more options in reality than you believe.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Those seven shafts are on a hill overlooking Millsite IIRC. I know we went up Millsite to get to them.

 

[cuzimloony]

Find the "hidden" clue and you will find the mine. There are more options in reality than you believe.

Oh that's helpful. I saw about 6 mines out there. Which one was it?

 

[cuzimloony]

Those seven shafts are on a hill overlooking Millsite IIRC. I know we went up Millsite to get to them.

OF COURSE THEY ARE!

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Those seven shafts are on a hill overlooking Millsite IIRC. I know we went up Millsite to get to them.

These "shafts" were publicized by Henry Bruderlin. He thought they were Spanish mines. Jessie Mullins, who I mentioned earlier, was reportedly of the opinion that this was where "Wagoner" got his gold.

That's why Tom inserted that paragraph on the seven mines in his version of Wagoners Lost Ledge. He was aware that Jessie, the son of Fred Mullins in the stories, had told Bruderlin the Wagoner story and thought Bruderlin had found the location where Wagoner got his gold.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Cuzimloony

In my assessment from some of the research I've done (and its minimal at this point), there's a very good chance that Storm's tales are exaggerated a tad. That being said; I'm also in the camp of believing many who spin a yarn or two - exaggerate on purpose, as their intentions are being closely guarded - not allowing certain details to be revealed. In what I've gathered - many Hunters will reluctantly give a story if pressed upon and in doing so - reveal ONLY what is gleaned on the surface of said story. It's either a reason of personal protection of an area that is still in the works - OR - it's been recovered, but decided to keep the 'find" hidden, as to keep the story alive. Which ever it is, this can be frustrating for many.

Regardless of which story one decides to pursue - each and every yarn has it's morsels of truth and a whole lot of garbage, all mixed in - just to make things seem just out of reach.

What I will say about both the Wagoner's tale AND the Jacob Waltz legend - is that in both scenarios, I don't believe either man walked very far into those Supes. From what I've experienced back in there, at 110° myself, is that one is not going to get very far in or out easily - all while trying to escape the intense weather. Though I understand that people back then, were a heck of a lot tougher than we are today in modern times; it's almost impossible for an 81 year old carrying any type of suitcase full of Ore - nor can I imagine Waltz doing something similar at his age and the distance many think the LDM is located at. All of this tells me, that the desired locations of both stories are closer than anyone has thought it to be. I can't be definitive with the Wagoner's tale - but with all the research I've done on good old Jacob, I am convinced HIS location is where many believe there is no gold - and it's closer than anyone has ever thought. I believe THIS is why the LDM hasn't been relocated in at least the last 100 years or so. I have a feeling that there's been a relocating of the LDM (or a Peralta Mine), since Jacob's time - but in that finding whomever it was, kept things covered for whatever personal reasons.

I guess a bigger question with regards to Jacob, would be; who made the Waltz Map?

-SpartanOC

​

Skyhawk1251

Good to see you back no TN. You've been quiet lately....

...any new adventures to share with the "class"?

-SpartanOC