Wagoner's Lost Ledge

[markmar]

Tonto National Forest - Special Places

Tonto National Forest - Special Places

www.fs.usda.gov

Would you advise bringing a detector in there without a proper written and approved "plan?"

Seems though, and there are a number of reasons people other than prospectors would do this, that someone IS out there exploring around. I found their water stash hidden a little off trail in LaBarge Canyon headed towards Whisky Spring from Trap Canyon area. View attachment 2179154View attachment 2179155
As you can see from the height of the desert brush in this area. Going off trail is quite a challange. Especially for an old man with a suitcase full of rocks, who had to move out west due to breathing problems........just saying.

IMHO, Wagoner was not in that region with the suitcase full of rocks/ore. Wagoner drew his map using imagination, not surveying skills. There is another prominent landmark which he could use for another map , with an easiest approach, but he choose his route of the first time find, for the point where the route in the map turns south after passing by Picacho Butte.

 

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[cuzimloony]

As long as you do not disturb the soil - a metal detector is Okay to use....so use it wisely. You can't dig per say - but uncovering (moving rocks about) isn't.
I believe with regards to that area, that you don't need a metal detector to find something to be honest. It can help, but not necessary.

-SpartanOC

...and following advice found here on another thread. "They're poop holes officer!"
Yeah Ill be back. I just read the story of the girl with the miners who Jacob Waltz killed and she gave this as the route taken by the dutchman too, but Im sure you guys already knew that.
Im learning......

 

[cuzimloony]

I started this 6 hours ago and it's not even half-way. Plus, I have 2 SD cards full. There is a lot of footage of the hike in and out and scouting along the way.
Side note, if you notice the radio books, Im a ham. I tried to contact repeaters in Globe and Usury Mountain, using a Yaesu VX-6R..... no go. Ive opened repeaters and chatted with this same radio waaaaaay past Hewitt Canyon before so I fugured I'd give it a shot. There is no reaching radio repeaters at Whisky Springs w/a handy-talkie (ham radio). Oh wait.........that said, someone was there on their walkie-talkies (normie radios). My radio has been modded to also include GMRS frequencies. These are your walkie talkie freqs. I heard someone for about 3 seconds on channel 1. Walkie talkies are very low power so they had to have been close. My radio is a ham radio so is higher power and not limited to channels.
And on THAT note, behind Miners Needle about 1/2 mile past tabletop rock, there is a spot with 5G and cell service. I made some calls and checked some emails there........

 

[SPARTANOC]

I started this 6 hours ago and it's not even half-way. Plus, I have 2 SD cards full. There is a lot of footage of the hike in and out and scouting along the way.
Side note, if you notice the radio books, Im a ham. I tried to contact repeaters in Globe and Usury Mountain, using a Yaesu VX-6R..... no go. Ive opened repeaters and chatted with this same radio waaaaaay past Hewitt Canyon before so I fugured I'd give it a shot. There is no reaching radio repeaters at Whisky Springs w/a handy-talkie (ham radio). Oh wait.........that said, someone was there on their walkie-talkies (normie radios). My radio has been modded to also include GMRS frequencies. These are your walkie talkie freqs. I heard someone for about 3 seconds on channel 1. Walkie talkies are very low power so they had to have been close. My radio is a ham radio so is higher power and not limited to channels.
And on THAT note, behind Miners Needle about 1/2 mile past tabletop rock, there is a spot with 5G and cell service. I made some calls and checked some emails there........
View attachment 2179168

Cuzimloony

If you are working the Dutchman story - don't get too much into the rabbit hole. There is so much out there - that's incorrect, as over the years the story gets mutilated and the simple details get washed out from the story.

Well done in getting out there. How was the weather? How low did it get out there at night?

-SpartanOC

 

[cuzimloony]

Cuzimloony

If you are working the Dutchman story - don't get too much into the rabbit hole. There is so much out there - that's incorrect, as over the years the story gets mutilated and the simple details get washed out from the story.

Well done in getting out there. How was the weather? How low did it get out there at night?

-SpartanOC

Oh, I know and thank you. I have some theories about the dutchman, and none of them are that its real (thanks Hillbilly Bob Brewer). I've not believed the wagoner story from day 1 and you'll hear that in the videos if you watch them when I put them up. I dont think Tom Kollenborn believed it either since he called the wagoner "mexican miners."
Long story long, I think the dutchman (and related) stories may be a "look over here and not over there" to distract people from.....let's say, the Martinez mine area.
All that said......I dont care if they're fake or not. Im going to explore the stories, and in the process stay young, connect with nature, and learn the sups like the back of my hand and hopefully, find gold in a lost Peralta mine with hearts, turtles and knives carved in the enterance after following the Alpha to the Omega, etc.....lol.
Side note, the only gold Ive found in the sups was about $30 worth panning with Woody Whampler at the Dons Camp. Panning is not my thing....... I like to hike and explore.

Edit: Now that I think about it, that gold I "found" panning at the Don's Camp may not have even come from the Sups. The dirt came from Woody and I don't know where he brought it from......

 

[SPARTANOC]

Oh, I know and thank you. I have some theories about the dutchman, and none of them are that its real (thanks Hillbilly Bob Brewer). I've not believed the wagoner story from day 1 and you'll hear that in the videos if you watch them when I put them up. I dont think Tom Kollenborn believed it either since he called the wagoner "mexican miners."
Long story long, I think the dutchman (and related) stories may be a "look over here and not over there" to distract people from.....let's say, the Martinez mine area.
All that said......I dont care if they're fake or not. Im going to explore the stories, and in the process stay young, connect with nature, and learn the sups like the back of my hand and hopefully, find gold in a lost Peralta mine with hearts, turtles and knives carved in the enterance after following the Alpha to the Omega, etc.....lol.
Side note, the only gold Ive found in the sups was about $30 worth panning with Woody Whampler at the Dons Camp. Panning is not my thing....... I like to hike and explore.

Absolutely - do the adventure and explore, as that's what life is about. I too love to explore - even if I never find something - I'm still living a good life of exploration. I believe many of the stories out there are BS - but that being said, there are bits of truth to some 'tall tales' and its pretty exciting to prove or disprove. As most of us know - its the hunt that matters in the long run. Its the finds that make those hunts intriguing.

I wish I could have met up with Woody when I was out there for Rendezvou - by my wife got heat stroke and I had to pull out of there, for her sake. She's OK now, but she really got violently sick. I Love the guy (Woody) and it would have been nice to do some panning with him. My wife and I do the whole panning thing here in Southern California - in the San Gabriel Mountains. So much history up there and fun to find old miners cabins and such.

I will tell you this though - the Dutchman story is very real. So keep with the exploring and never let one tell you differently....

......one day the LDM will be found once again...

-SpartanOC

 

[cuzimloony]

Absolutely - do the adventure and explore, as that's what life is about. I too love to explore - even if I never find something - I'm still living a good life of exploration. I believe many of the stories out there are BS - but that being said, there are bits of truth to some 'tall tales' and its pretty exciting to prove or disprove. As most of us know - its the hunt that matters in the long run. Its the finds that make those hunts intriguing.

I wish I could have met up with Woody when I was out there for Rendezvou - by my wife got heat stroke and I had to pull out of there, for her sake. She's OK now, but she really got violently sick. I Love the guy (Woody) and it would have been nice to do some panning with him. My wife and I do the whole panning thing here in Southern California - in the San Gabriel Mountains. So much history up there and fun to find old miners cabins and such.

I will tell you this though - the Dutchman story is very real. So keep with the exploring and never let one tell you differently....

......one day the LDM will be found once again...

-SpartanOC

The second Rondezvous I went to, my wife was pregnant and my daughter was 2. We left almost as soon as we got there and felt the heat.
My first one though, was a blast. Frank Augustine won a prize of "Gold panning class with Woody" and he was obviously, not too interested. It ended up with me and I spent a whole day up by Payson digging rocks and dirt in a river with Woody. I learned a lot from him for sure. Where to look, how gold acts in the water, etc.... I also learned, I didnt like it so much.
On the other hand, because of the first Rendezvous, I made a couple contacts and went searching with Frank A a few times on Woody's side-by-side with another THunter who posts on here, but I wont name him since I dont have permission. There, and from those 3, I learned sooo much about prospecting, looking, dealing with the desert, even though I only went out with them a few times, blah blah. I didnt learn enough to speak intelligently about it apparently. I am PA guy in AZ (side note, so are Frank A and Jack San Felice....go PA!!) . Coal mines in Appalachian mountains are my thing. Lol but that was a blast. Jeep trails into desert mountains. Minelab Gold Monster 1000's everywhere. Lol That was absolutely fun and thats what I'll continue to do.
So......thats why Im back on here. I have been waiting for my daughter to be at least 2 before the family picnics by Byuos Butte while Dad metal detects, start up again
Speaking of the Dutchman now, have you read Bob Brewers theory on the Lost Dutchman? Its a whole-nother thread that I'll start, but just curious if anyone has ever looked into his angle....

 

[SPARTANOC]

The second Rondezvous I went to, my wife was pregnant and my daughter was 2. We left almost as soon as we got there and felt the heat.
My first one though, was a blast. Frank Augustine won a prize of "Gold panning class with Woody" and he was obviously, not too interested. It ended up with me and I spent a whole day up by Payson digging rocks and dirt in a river with Woody. I learned a lot from him for sure. Where to look, how gold acts in the water, etc.... I also learned, I didnt like it so much.
On the other hand, because of the first Rendezvous, I made a couple contacts and went searching with Frank A a few times on Woody's side-by-side with another THunter who posts on here, but I wont name him since I dont have permission. There, and from those 3, I learned sooo much about prospecting, looking, dealing with the desert, even though I only went out with them a few times, blah blah. I didnt learn enough to speak intelligently about it apparently. I am PA guy in AZ (side note, so are Frank A and Jack San Felice....go PA!!) . Coal mines in Appalachian mountains are my thing. Lol but that was a blast. Jeep trails into desert mountains. Minelab Gold Monster 1000's everywhere. Lol That was absolutely fun and thats what I'll continue to do.
So......thats why Im back on here. I have been waiting for my daughter to be at least 2 before the family picnics by Byuos Butte while Dad metal detects, start up again
Speaking of the Dutchman now, have you read Bob Brewers theory on the Lost Dutchman? Its a whole-nother thread that I'll start, but just curious if anyone has ever looked into his angle....

Your next thread sounds interesting - let us know when its up. Discussions are what we do here....most of the time 🤣
Your adventures with Woody and Frank sound fun and educational. I've got the panning, sluicing down here in CA, but there is nothing like Arizona and its hidden gems.

When I was there at Rendezvous this year - I got to meet Wayne for about 5 minutes and some others. At that point is when my wife got sick. Needless to say - I was disappointed in not being able to stay, but my wife is the number one person in my life and she comes first - as I'm willing to sacrifice anything for her well being.

I do plan on getting out there next year for Rendezvous - but I'm also hoping to get out there in April. There's a location that needs searching - an interesting one with many possibilities.

Nice side-arm by-the-way. 9mm?

 

[cuzimloony]

Your next thread sounds interesting - let us know when its up. Discussions are what we do here....most of the time 🤣
Your adventures with Woody and Frank sound fun and educational. I've got the panning, sluicing down here in CA, but there is nothing like Arizona and its hidden gems.

When I was there at Rendezvous this year - I got to meet Wayne for about 5 minutes and some others. At that point is when my wife got sick. Needless to say - I was disappointed in not being able to stay, but my wife is the number one person in my life and she comes first - as I'm willing to sacrifice anything for her well being.

I do plan on getting out there next year for Rendezvous - but I'm also hoping to get out there in April. There's a location that needs searching - an interesting one with many possibilities.

Nice side-arm by-the-way. 9mm?

G19 in that pic. It has saved my life more than once. I almost killed a guy in Scottsdale when he kicked in my door at 3am. Apparently he was drunk and thought my condo was his and when his key didnt work, he kicked it in. I run out gun in hand and paint him with the weapon light. After I finish screaming for him to back the f out, he asks me why Im in HIS house. Then I realized, he's not here to hurt anyone, he's drunk. I gave him another chance to run and he took it, but he dropped his wallet on the way. I turned it in to the cops and they arrested him. He paid for my door and did some community service. He lived in the same condo complex as me...both our condos were next to a pool....both were down stairs.... same color doors, opposite sides of the complex. He got lucky I had my whits about me at 3am. For more description: Im a little guy. 5 foot 5, 150lbs, no body fat type. This dude was 6'3" and 230lbs, according to his license. This is why I say this G19 saved my (and my wife and daughter's) life, even though the only "trigger" pulled was the light (thanks Streamlight!)
If you come out searching and want some company......wink wink. Im always down. I understand if not and will take no offense. Treasure hunters are secretive and Ive learned, its not personal....usually

 

[SPARTANOC]

G19 in that pic. It has saved my life more than once. I almost killed a guy in Scottsdale when he kicked in my door at 3am. Apparently he was drunk and thought my condo was his and when his key didnt work, he kicked it in. I run out gun in hand and paint him with the weapon light. After I finish screaming for him to back the f out, he asks me why Im in HIS house. Then I realized, he's not here to hurt anyone, he's drunk. I gave him another chance to run and he took it, but he dropped his wallet on the way. I turned it in to the cops and they arrested him. He paid for my door and did some community service. He lived in the same condo complex as me...both our condos were next to a pool....both were down stairs.... same color doors, opposite sides of the complex. He got lucky I had my whits about me at 3am. For more description: Im a little guy. 5 foot 5, 150lbs, no body fat type. This dude was 6'3" and 230lbs, according to his license. This is why I say this G19 saved my (and my wife and daughter's) life, even though the only "trigger" pulled was the light (thanks Streamlight!)
If you come out searching and want some company......wink wink. Im always down. I understand if not and will take no offense. Treasure hunters are secretive and Ive learned, its not personal....usually

Nice work with your control over almost killing him. He's a lucky man.

I've got a CZ-75b 9mm. and i just love it.

I am one of those rare hunters that isn't afraid to network, learn from others AND enjoy the company of others with the same interests. I'm opened to an adventure down the line. My job usually keeps me quite busy as I'm a Director of IT - for a medium sized company here in CA. So, getting out there is tough, but that being said - I am going to get out there this next year. Just waiting for the weather to be good enough to spend some days out there without worrying about the environment.

I believe we can all learn from each other, but I also understand its a hobby that does inspire paranoia on some level, with some people. Personally - I'm not like that and I look forward to meeting you and others sometime in the future. I don't want to be that guy - who just sits at his desk and type about things. I like to get out there.

 

[cuzimloony]

Nice work with your control over almost killing him. He's a lucky man.

I've got a CZ-75b 9mm. and i just love it.

I am one of those rare hunters that isn't afraid to network, learn from others AND enjoy the company of others with the same interests. I'm opened to an adventure down the line. My job usually keeps me quite busy as I'm a Director of IT - for a medium sized company here in CA. So, getting out there is tough, but that being said - I am going to get out there this next year. Just waiting for the weather to be good enough to spend some days out there without worrying about the environment.

I believe we can all learn from each other, but I also understand its a hobby that does inspire paranoia on some level, with some people. Personally - I'm not like that and I look forward to meeting you and others sometime in the future. I don't want to be that guy - who just sits at his desk and type about things. I like to get out there.

Management. A smarty pants too.... lol. Good for you man. I'm an EE myself, but haven't made the jump to management. Not sure I will.....my family and hobbies keep me too preoccupied.
....and about learning.....someone said it somewhere, not me, but it stuck. "You can always learn SOMETHING from anyone."
Very true.......

 

[cuzimloony]

On to the matter at hand, it seems my gopro has gotten the dreaded "upload error." I think it might just be hot. It's been running all day so, Im going to let it cool down and try overnight to get the 2nd SD card uploaded to the cloud.
I'll probably have to create some youtube channel so I can share these vids. "Joe's Low Budget Treasure Channel" or something. So, Ill sort that out.
In the meantime, here are a some pics of the hike and the area of interest. There was really no camping at Whiskey Spring to speak of, but there was a bit of standing water. There were camping spots between Whiskry Springs and the top of the trail heading toward Miners Needle. There was also camping past Whiskey Springs headed toward Trap Canyon.
I didn't have time to get to LaBarge Box Canyon, sunlight is short here in AZ right now and I wanted to be back at the trailhead by 5 (made it), but I did walk part of the way to Trap Spring. From there, I walked back for "about an hour" to try to replicate the "within the hour" from the story. I recorded it all wide angle to see more, BUT, upload error.

Here is the trail I took. All the red pointers are places where I took pics of something "interesting," but of course Im getting the "file too big" message when I try to post a lot of them here. Ill sort that out next week. Some of these pics are of the "areas of interest" talked about in this thread. Some are just scenic. Whisky Spring itself was the only shade the whole day, and it was wonderful. Feel free to ask questions, analyize, discuss, comment, etc.. Im not here to hide anything. Im here to explore the theories presented as best as I can, on the ground. Let's go!
Edit: looks like I need to break this up into multiple posts. Too many pics. I apologize in advance if I post a picture twice.

 

[cuzimloony]

That last one Picacho Butte, taken from the northish, looking southish.
Also, remember that "triangular rock ledge" that shaded Jacob Waltz from the rain (if im not mixing up stories...)? Keep that in mind while looking at the first pic......
Im probably seeing things, but that's the fun part

 

[cuzimloony]

Ah.......I just remembered to mention this. When I was walking from Trap Spring, could I SEE Weavers Needle or Miners Needle at any point along the trail like it might say in the story? No. Absolutely not. From Trap Spring, walking toward Whiskey Spring, the only time you see Weavers Needle is when you are almost OUT of that Whiskey Valley area right before crossing a small ridge to continue to Miners Needle. It is a looooong uphill slog that I needed multiple breaks on going up. (Do I believe a sick elderly wagoneer or even an 81 year old dutchman could make this trip, multiple times......? Thats a different thread.)
Near Trap Spring, was there a sharp point needle rock to the north? Again, no. To the south? No.
There were lots of caves and a couple mines visible. So, I can say Ive found the Dutchman Mine now. What's next?
Lol
Jokes aside, the videos DID upload last night. Family weekend this weekend so, I'd look for it next week sometime.....
Have a great weekend everyone. Ill be resting my legs

 

[cuzimloony]

Looking at my footage and.......two black hills? Maybe 2 black points on 1 hill. Maybe I should just wait so we can analyze the video together. Lol

 

[PotBelly Jim]

A couple of observations, based on many years of research on this particular story…

The story as it’s commonly known can be traced largely to Barry Storm. Storm was not from AZ, and was accused of lifting story material from locals, or publishing stories that were claimed to have been told to him in confidence.

Storm has also changed locations and sometimes people involved in these stories. I believe there’s sufficient evidence to question his given location of Wagoner’s Ledge.

Let’s look at Storm’s story. He says Fred Mullins was the stage driver that knew Wagoner. Mullins indeed was an AZ pioneer. His father, a native of England, migrated to Utah in one of the many Mormon wagon trains, this one in particular was organized and led across the country by one of Brigham Young’s sons. Later, Fred was part of the original group of Mormons that established the community of Mesa in the late 1870’s.

Fred was indeed a teamster as a young man in Utah. However, in AZ, Fred Mullins was a farmer. He didn’t ever drive a stage between Pinal and Casa Grande or Phoenix. These stage companies and their employees are well documented. So is Fred’s life in AZ. Based on this, it’s safe to say it most likely never happened as Storm claims.

Fred died at least a dozen years before Barry Storm arrived in AZ, so Barry heard this story about Fred, from somebody other than Fred. This was most likely one of Fred’s sons, or somebody who knew them.

Jessie Mullins was one of Fred’s sons, who spent a great deal of his life prospecting and working claims in the southeastern Superstitions area and also near Goldfield. During the period of time that he may have met Storm, Jessie was living at his brother Hart’s homestead on the banks of Queen Creek. A picture of Jessie at this homestead, near the end of his life, can be seen at the end of Bob Garman’s book. I’ve driven by that location many times. Jessie died in January of 1959 at age 83.

Continued next post….

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Assuming Storm got the story of Wagoner’s Lost Ledge from Jessie Mullins, or someone well informed by Jessie Mullins, we might think it’s an accurate story. After all, Fred Mullins was Jessie’s father.

But as mentioned previously, Fred was not a teamster or stage driver at that stage of his life. He was a farmer. And, the only time I’m aware of that Jessie talked about the legend in public, he cast doubt on two major points of Storm’s story.

The first point: Jessie didn’t claim it was his father, Fred Mullins, who was the stage driver that dropped Wagoner off and picked him up 3 days later. Jessie said the driver was Hebe MacDonald.

A bit of research shows that Heber MacDonald was indeed a stage driver between Pinal and Casa Grande. Hebe lived at the Silver King for some time while it was in operation. This fits well as the Silver King Mill was at Pinal, and the railroad station was at Casa Grande during this timeframe.

Milled ore was shipped via wagon between the mill at Pinal, to the rail station. It was the same with people arriving from out of the area going back and forth to the Silver King. The stage (separate from the ore shipments) also ran between the Silver King, through Pinal, to Casa Grande. Hebe eventually bought out the stage line, and later became a very successful mining man until his untimely death in Prescott on the night of June 11, 1903.

Other than naming the driver as Hebe MacDonald, and not his father Fred Mullins, what else did Jessie have to say about the story? One thing that jumps out is that nothing is said about rose quartz. This seems to have been a detail added by Barry Storm. For those very familiar with Storm, there seems to be an obvious reason for Storm to have claimed it was in rose quartz, and for him to have claimed it was near the upper area of LaBarge. At any rate, the gold was described by Jessie as hand-cobbed gold ore...no mention of the matrix being rose quartz.

Continued next post….

 

[PotBelly Jim]

The next thing about Jessie’s story that stands out is he seems to disagree with where Wagoner went, as told by Storm. His quote about the likelihood of Wagoner doing such a trip: “When I was 15 years old and healthy as the next, I couldn't have walked that far, dug out two suitcases of ore, and walked back in a week, much less three days just traveling at night. "

I think it’s obvious at this point that one should not put too much faith in Storm’s map and directions. Storm seems to have massaged the story to fit his favorite locations, not the first time he’d done something like that. Jessie claimed to have seen some of the gold from Wagoner’s Lost Ledge, presumably shown to him by Hebe MacDonald. Jessie also goes on to say that Hebe looked for the ledge, couldn’t find it, then eventually traced Wagoner to Tucson, only to find out that Wagoner had died.

Whether or not one believes the legend, perhaps Wagoner found a cache of hand-cobbed ore that was too big to get out of the desert in one or two trips. This could explain how he could get suitcases of ore out in 3 days. After all, there was not a lot said of Wagoner having much in the way of mining tools. If he had no tools, it had to have been mined previously.

Strangely enough, there is good evidence that other people have found caches of hand-cobbed ore in that area...but not the area described by Storm...If I were looking for this treasure, I’d be looking around the Millsite Canyon area.

 

[cuzimloony]

The next thing about Jessie’s story that stands out is he seems to disagree with where Wagoner went, as told by Storm. His quote about the likelihood of Wagoner doing such a trip: “When I was 15 years old and healthy as the next, I couldn't have walked that far, dug out two suitcases of ore, and walked back in a week, much less three days just traveling at night. "

I think it’s obvious at this point that one should not put too much faith in Storm’s map and directions. Storm seems to have massaged the story to fit his favorite locations, not the first time he’d done something like that. Jessie claimed to have seen some of the gold from Wagoner’s Lost Ledge, presumably shown to him by Hebe MacDonald. Jessie also goes on to say that Hebe looked for the ledge, couldn’t find it, then eventually traced Wagoner to Tucson, only to find out that Wagoner had died.

Whether or not one believes the legend, perhaps Wagoner found a cache of hand-cobbed ore that was too big to get out of the desert in one or two trips. This could explain how he could get suitcases of ore out in 3 days. After all, there was not a lot said of Wagoner having much in the way of mining tools. If he had no tools, it had to have been mined previously.

Strangely enough, there is good evidence that other people have found caches of hand-cobbed ore in that area...but not the area described by Storm...If I were looking for this treasure, I’d be looking around the Millsite Canyon area.

My intuition from the get-go was that this was a fake story. I did however give some credence to the Tom Kollenborn version. Miners could get there. A team with pack mules could. I did, but my opinion is that neither the Wagoner nor any 81 year old dutchman could, so now I highly, highly doubt the story supposedly given by the girl who left before the dutchman supposedly killed those Mexicans too. This gives me hope that my own personal pet theories are right, but again....a different thread. There were mines and caves to be seen. More than a few of each. At one point I heard people on a channel 1 walkie talkie frequency. Briefly. Maybe they were in a mine and a bit of signal got out.......maybe not.
It was a fun trip. Ive been there now and can easier sift through the bs. I'll be back too because I want to walk the LaBarge Box Canyon.
Pursuing my own theories, Ive jeeped the box canyon further south, closer to the beehive coke ovens, and its a fun drive...I appreciate your very well thought out and educated input. It gives me some things to chew on and helps confirm some of my own suspicions. Thank you!