Wagoner's Lost Ledge

cuzimloony said:
Excellent post! I just looked at my quadrangle...... no Whiskey Springs. Very very good points. Now you have me interested in Herman's cave. I must have been within walking distance of it, but I still haven't worked out exactly where it is yet. I just know it' in the area. I wonder where Howland found that quarts and I'm wondering even more where those shafts are..... Looks like another trip is in order. Thank you sir!
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There's nothing of any value to see at Hermans Cave...except for the view ;)

This is how the moonshiner's layout was explained to me:

Hermans Cave Area.jpg


There was some old trash laying around at the camp. Nothing in the cave, I don't think Herman or anyone else actually lived in there unless there was a bad storm, but even then I wouldn't want to be in there.

Supposedly there was always someone on watch on the bluff overlooking La Barge. They could see anyone coming in either direction up/down Labarge, and anyone coming over the divide and down into Whiskey Springs Canyon.
 

PotBelly Jim said:
There's nothing of any value to see at Hermans Cave...except for the view ;)

This is how the moonshiner's layout was explained to me:

View attachment 2180086

There was some old trash laying around at the camp. Nothing in the cave, I don't think Herman or anyone else actually lived in there unless there was a bad storm, but even then I wouldn't want to be in there.

Supposedly there was always someone on watch on the bluff overlooking La Barge. They could see anyone coming in either direction up/down Labarge, and anyone coming over the divide and down into Whiskey Springs Canyon.
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I'm pretty sure I pointed that cave out in the video. I just didn't realize at the time what I was looking at.
 

17:28 - 17:35 in the video. Wanna chat about those 4 pyramid shaped rocks and the heart looking one, perched up on it's pedestal.......and the triangle on to the right on the ground? Possible meanings? Completely natural? I'm trying to find them on GE currently, w/o much success yet.....
Also, those water bladders are placed in a rock that totally looks like a snakes mouth, opened.
 

I need your help fellas. I want to document the hike around picacho butte, just like on the maps...up Red Tanks, over to "around whiskey springs," but.....Im having a hard time finding a relatively easy way to get to that part of Red Tanks that wont take a day or two in and of itself.
Maybe one of you guys more knowledgable of the area can give me a tip? Or maybe we can figure it out together......
 

cuzimloony said:
I need your help fellas. I want to document the hike around picacho butte, just like on the maps...up Red Tanks, over to "around whiskey springs," but.....Im having a hard time finding a relatively easy way to get to that part of Red Tanks that wont take a day or two in and of itself.
Maybe one of you guys more knowledgable of the area can give me a tip? Or maybe we can figure it out together......
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If you want to do a round trip up from Red Tanks and back via Miner's Canyon, then you have to go somewhere in the middle. So, take the Elephant Butte road from Queen Valley and leave your car at Milk Ranch or little further at the junction with Whitlow Canyon. Go from there following Randolph Canyon until the Red Tanks trail, and so on.
I don't see the reason to do this trip, but if it's only for document then will be interesting.
 

markmar said:
I don't know. An assay would give a clue.
I doubt Brunderlin knew to "read" a Spanish treasure map.
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What makes you think it was a Spanish Treasure map?

What do you know about Henry Bruderlin? Do you know who he'd shown that map to? Who he was working with?
 

markmar said:
If you want to do a round trip up from Red Tanks and back via Miner's Canyon, then you have to go somewhere in the middle. So, take the Elephant Butte road from Queen Valley and leave your car at Milk Ranch or little further at the junction with Whitlow Canyon. Go from there following Randolph Canyon until the Red Tanks trail, and so on.
I don't see the reason to do this trip, but if it's only for document then will be interesting.
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To document, or at least form my own opinion from experience, for my own reasons, if someone of that age/health status can actually walk this trail as the map shows. 1/2 of that map trail has been eliminated in my humble opinion, as written.
It will help solidify in my head that this story, as written, is nonsense. And.....if Im wrong about that, I'll have that documented too. We can all form our own opinions in high def.
Spinning wheels for 100 years.....Im going to do my best to end the wheel spinning......on video.
On to your directions......that's what I thought, more or less too but, getting past Elephant butte up to Buzzard's Roost, in a jeep at least, is a couple hours since you have to deflate your tires and drive slow over the rocks.
Then, park up and start hiking. So.....it's a day at least just to get to the base of red tanks. But......maybe I could loop Picacho Butte, then up and out Whiskey Springs in another day. A two day trip.
Thanks markmar...... I'm rolling with this for now. I know Buzzards Roost area pretty well. Ive done a slew of hiking out there. I even lost a drone out there.....crazy story there. This pic was taken from a search I made for that drone. Buzzards roost is in the center, and you are saying, more or less, to park down to the left of it.
I can actually have my wife drop me off there and pick me up at Peralta......2 days (maybe). Thanks markmar
Screenshot_20241117_093348_Instagram.jpg
 

PotBelly Jim said:
What makes you think it was a Spanish Treasure map?

What do you know about Henry Bruderlin? Do you know who he'd shown that map to? Who he was working with?
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I know to distinguish a Spanish treasure map from its characteristics. They used a specific pattern which made their maps unique in that domain.
Polka and Wagoner mines, were found and worked by Spanish not Mexicans or Spanish Peralta. I can't give much clues on this because I will disclose the area they are located. For the Polka mine doesn't exist any Spanish map, but what Polka drew and with the existing clues, someone skilled in TH domain would be able to recognize the region.

I know nothing about Brunderlin nor with who he was working, but only saw his map.
 

markmar said:
I know to distinguish a Spanish treasure map from its characteristics. They used a specific pattern which made their maps unique in that domain.
Polka and Wagoner mines, were found and worked by Spanish not Mexicans or Spanish Peralta. I can't give much clues on this because I will disclose the area they are located. For the Polka mine doesn't exist any Spanish map, but what Polka drew and with the existing clues, someone skilled in TH domain would be able to recognize the region.

I know nothing about Brunderlin nor with who he was working, but only saw his map.
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Hmmm...the version I got was that the distance was written in contemporary measurements (the squiggle on Tom K's version of the map was where the distance was). That and the story of whose map it was originally (edit: and when it was made) would seem to preclude this being a Spanish map.

Not that I personally have any idea one way or the other.
 

cuzimloony said:
To document, or at least form my own opinion from experience, for my own reasons, if someone of that age/health status can actually walk this trail as the map shows. 1/2 of that map trail has been eliminated in my humble opinion, as written.
It will help solidify in my head that this story, as written, is nonsense. And.....if Im wrong about that, I'll have that documented too. We can all form our own opinions in high def.
Spinning wheels for 100 years.....Im going to do my best to end the wheel spinning......on video.
On to your directions......that's what I thought, more or less too but, getting past Elephant butte up to Buzzard's Roost, in a jeep at least, is a couple hours since you have to deflate your tires and drive slow over the rocks.
Then, park up and start hiking. So.....it's a day at least just to get to the base of red tanks. But......maybe I could loop Picacho Butte, then up and out Whiskey Springs in another day. A two day trip.
Thanks markmar...... I'm rolling with this for now. I know Buzzards Roost area pretty well. Ive done a slew of hiking out there. I even lost a drone out there.....crazy story there. This pic was taken from a search I made for that drone. Buzzards roost is in the center, and you are saying, more or less, to park down to the left of it.
I can actually have my wife drop me off there and pick me up at Peralta......2 days (maybe). Thanks markmar
View attachment 2180201
Click to expand...
You have to keep in your mind how every search for gold in Wagoner era, was not for fun but for surviving. The motivation always change the game's rules and can make a beast from a kitty.
 

PotBelly Jim said:
Hmmm...the version I got was that the distance was written in contemporary measurements (the squiggle on Tom K's version of the map was where the distance was). That and the story of whose map it was originally (edit: and when it was made) would seem to preclude this being a Spanish map.

Not that I personally have any idea one way or the other.
Click to expand...
I never understood why someone want to make his own map by copying an original map and adding some features on it. This fact doesn't shows or prove how the person who did it is aware of what the map represents and for what region was made. I see the same with the Senner's map. To me this is a show off for the beginners and doesn't make sense in the real TH world.
 

markmar said:
I never understood why someone want to make his own map by copying an original map and adding some features on it. This fact doesn't shows or prove how the person who did it is aware of what the map represents and for what region was made. I see the same with the Senner's map. To me this is a show off for the beginners and doesn't make sense in the real TH world.
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I get what you're saying.

The major reason he did it was to keep people from selling treasure maps to newbies. Kinda head 'em off at the pass so the newbie wouldn't be spending all his money on such things. I get that too...Alot ;)
 

markmar said:
You have to keep in your mind how every search for gold in Wagoner era, was not for fun but for surviving. The motivation always change the game's rules and can make a beast from a kitty.
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The Wagoner, according to the story, wasn't searching for gold. He was hiking for health reasons and stumbled across it. (Meaning.....not much off trail risking LIFE if he was hiking to save it.) Hikers and prospectors are two different things.
 

cuzimloony said:
The Wagoner, according to the story, wasn't searching for gold. He was hiking for health reasons and stumbled across it. (Meaning.....not much off trail risking LIFE if he was hiking to save it.) Hikers and prospectors are two different things.
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I don't believe he was hiking for health reason in a so wild environment. I believe he had a clue or a rumor, and risked his life hiking that mountain. The luck was with him maybe because fortune favors the bold?
 

markmar said:
I don't believe he was hiking for health reason in a so wild environment. I believe he had a clue or a rumor, and risked his life hiking that mountain. The luck was with him maybe because fortune favors the bold?
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No hiking in so wild an environment.
> Goes to youtube and looks up "hiking superstition mountains." There are thousands of videos................
Thousands of videos, a huge chunk of which are made by women.......
 

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