Ville de Lyon, Harve France to New York City

[Idahodutch]

Idaho,

It might be worth looking at the actual documentation that Dr. Oertel used, rather than an online file that has been transcribed:View attachment 1806275

The original passenger list of the Ville De Lyon clearly shows the Jacob Waltz onboard was 28 years old vice 20. This original document is what was used for Dr. Glover's book and Dr. Oertel's research. Both scientists, who prefer original documentation where it exists.

The original passenger list is available to anyone online at:Passenger lists of vessels arriving at New York, 1820-1897 [microform] : United States. Bureau of Customs : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Potbelly Jim,
Thank you for chiming in on this. I was starting to wonder if I was just trying to make something that wasn't.
Your picture is a lot more clear than the pic in my book, but it is what I see, just nice to see it clear now.
So . . . . I guess this, like many other things LDM, . . . just when you think things start to come together, you notice a huge pile of extra parts. You start thinking, maybe some of those are supposed to fit?

I'm glad you said something
Idaho Dutch

 

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[Idahodutch]

Potbelly Jim,
I think I am almost where I started, except that in this process, it seems that the window for Waltz' birth month needs to be narrowed if the Ville de Lyon Waltz is the LDM Waltz.
- He would have to be age 28 in July of 1839
- According to the census information provided by Matthew in his work "The Life of Jacob Waltz", this Jacob would need to be turning age 29 by sometime in August (for the earliest census month), or certainly by September or October.
Other considerations
- The Abstatt Waltz was born in November of 1810, and would not have been the ages listed on most of the census data in that work.
- Perhaps it was ordinary to regularly round up your age when reporting information to the census taker. (but I don't think so).
- When was the LDM Waltz supposedly born? (Month in particular might be helpful for looking at this)
- Unless the research done about where the Olbers was and wasn't, is bogus, then I think that passenger list for New Orleans would have to have been manufactured.

I think I would enjoy reading your thoughts, if you would be willing to share.
Sincerely,
Idaho Dutch

Matthew,
I don't think that it is conclusive, but it looks like the trip from Germany to New Orleans may not have happened as believed by some.
It appears that the voyage timelines do not work. (As in it seems "The Olbers" was elsewhere at that time and was not in New Orleans).

My take, would be that the chances are looking favorable that the Jacob Waltz on the Ville de Lyon is our guy, but not 100% at this time.
I haven't finished reading Glovers, so maybe there's a twist coming up yet.

If there was some new information about the New Orleans Waltz and company, (maybe different ship. . . ) that would be interesting as the description of the people in that group sure seem to fit the bill.
IMHO - the New Orleans version was manufactured, or records showing where the Olbers was and wasn't, were. The likelihood between which of the two, looks like a pretty big gap though.
Idaho Dutch

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Idahodutch,

The Abstatt Waltz was a force fit from the very beginning. Too many things had to be overlooked to believe Abstatt Waltz was the Dutchman.

Abstatt Waltz was actually JaKob F. Walz not Jacob Waltz.

Abstatt Waltz is positively listed as Jacob Friederich, not “Jakob”, in local records I’ve seen. The "Dutchman" writes his name as "Jacob" as well. In some documents in which he was being referred to, I've seen it written as "Jakob". But his given name at birth was clearly "Jacob", that's how he wrote it, and that's what Abstatt Waltz's given name was.

Abstatt Waltz was an Oeconom, a business administration major at Schlosgut Hohenheim University at Stuttgart Germany. Dutchman Waltz was a poor miner never had any business dealings.

There are many pioneer references that Dutchman Waltz had some sort of higher education.

Abstatt Waltz was indeed listed as an "Oconom"(Economist), as was one of his brothers. While Dutchman Waltz may have been a poor miner, according to the Bark Notes, both Julia and Reinhart told Bark that Julia went to Jake for help straightening out her bills after her husband left. Waltz told her to take some gold which would help until he could come down and go over the bills with her. “…they found that there were some seventeen hundred dollars of bills besides two thousand on the fountain…they both said that Jake squared all the bakery accounts.”

Why would a business-woman go to a poor miner for help sorting out her financial affairs? Perhaps because he had some education and not just suspicion he had some gold?

In the 1850 California census Jacob Waltz middle initial is W not the Abstatt Waltz's middle initial of F.

The person you’re referring to is listed on the census as “J. W. Walls”, not “Jacob W. Waltz”, so if this is our “Dutchman”, the census is a little ambiguous to begin with, not to mention he is 10 years too old to be 81 at his death in 1891:

When Abstatt Waltz's father died he left his son a sizable estate in money, real estate (buildings) and land yet the Dutchman Jacob Waltz never had anything to do with it. (?) Because the Dutchman was not the Abstatt Waltz.

Abstatt Waltz never returned to Germany to receive his inheritance after his father died. His portion of the estate was charged for expenses incurred when he left for America in 1839 (a shotgun, food, clothes, a trunk) which his father paid. (Those purchases were made in May of 1839, a month before the Ville de Lyon departed Le Havre). The remaining amount was given to his mother’s care. When she died, again, Waltz never returned to get his inheritance. Dr. Oertel indicated that evidence existed that the family knew he had been in Louisiana and California, and that his inheritance may have eventually “expired” due to the fact he never collected it.

German's who immigrated to America through New York City did not migrate to the deep south like Natchez Mississippi, their traditional migration was east through Pennsylvania, and Ohio. Germans immigrating to America could have landed as easily and cheaper through New Orleans if they were going to the south (Natchez Mississippi, Georgia, etc.)

I don’t think this reasoning precludes any one German '49er from taking a ship to New York, then travelling to the south, then California, then Arizona.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Potbelly Jim,
I think I am almost where I started, except that in this process, it seems that the window for Waltz' birth month needs to be narrowed if the Ville de Lyon Waltz is the LDM Waltz.
- He would have to be age 28 in July of 1839
- According to the census information provided by Matthew in his work "The Life of Jacob Waltz", this Jacob would need to be turning age 29 by sometime in August (for the earliest census month), or certainly by September or October.
Other considerations
- The Abstatt Waltz was born in November of 1810, and would not have been the ages listed on most of the census data in that work.
- Perhaps it was ordinary to regularly round up your age when reporting information to the census taker. (but I don't think so).
- When was the LDM Waltz supposedly born? (Month in particular might be helpful for looking at this)
- Unless the research done about where the Olbers was and wasn't, is bogus, then I think that passenger list for New Orleans would have to have been manufactured.

I think I would enjoy reading your thoughts, if you would be willing to share.
Sincerely,
Idaho Dutch

Idaho, I would agree with most of what you wrote.

I've seen source documents from 1810 containing Abstatt Waltz's birth date information...problem is, it's not my research. So I'm at a loss to give you that data. At least 2 of the people involved in that research check in here from time to time, perhaps when/if they see this, they might (or might not) respond. I'm under the impression that the research will be published "publicly" at some point. I will say that Dr. Oertel stated in the SMJ in 2007 that Abstatt Waltz was born on 02 November 1810. Good enough for me

So the thoughts I'm willing to share: You're on the right track on every one of your bullet points above. My own personal opinion is that Abstatt Waltz is the best candidate for the Dutchman that I've seen yet. That doesn't mean a whole lot, as new documents will inevitably come to light in the future. They may support Abstatt Waltz, or eliminate him. What I can say is I've seen documents that have never been made public (yet) and none of them fall in the "eliminate" category, they just seem to support what we already know.

Anyway, good questions above...if you create a free account at FamilySearch.org, you can look up all the census records and come to a conclusion on your own based on the evidence. At this point that's all we have, people's conclusions based on the evidence...none of it slam-dunk convincing, but pretty good stuff.

And none of it has any bearing on whether or not Jacob Waltz had a rich gold mine in the Superstitions

Take care, Jim

 

[Idahodutch]

Jim,
Great responses . . . On all of it.
I completely agree that knowing wherever the LDM Waltz came from, would be nice to know, but probably won't help locating his mine.
Enjoy your Saturday,
Russ

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Potbelly Jim,

From Oertel's own record the name is spelled JaKob Fredreich Walz, NOT Jacob Waltz.

It all goes downhill from there. An excuse or alternate explanation has to be used for everything and we haven't even gotten into the fact the signatures of JaKob Walz and Dutchman Waltz are COMPLETELY different.

Oertel goes into detail over the shotgun JaKob Walz bought and brought with him. Herman Petrasch ended up with it. Its NOT the shotgun Oertel describes. Of course there will be yet another explanation.

And the fact the JaKob Walz of Abstatt and the man on the Ville de Lyon can be traced in America and are NOT the dutchman Waltz.

You are entitled to your opinion Jim and I respect that and understand where you are coming from but that and numerous "explanations" and misleading statements (JaKob Walz - Jacob Waltz) doesn't change the facts.

Best,

Matthew

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Potbelly Jim,

From Oertel's own record the name is spelled JaKob Fredreich Walz, NOT Jacob Waltz.

It all goes downhill from there. An excuse or alternate explanation has to be used for everything and we haven't even gotten into the fact the signatures of JaKob Walz and Dutchman Waltz are COMPLETELY different.

Oertel goes into detail over the shotgun JaKob Walz bought and brought with him. Herman Petrasch ended up with it. Its NOT the shotgun Oertel describes. Of course there will be yet another explanation.

And the fact the JaKob Walz of Abstatt and the man on the Ville de Lyon can be traced in America and are NOT the dutchman Waltz.

You are entitled to your opinion Jim and I respect that and understand where you are coming from but that and numerous "explanations" and misleading statements (JaKob Walz - Jacob Waltz) doesn't change the facts.

Best,

Matthew

Thanks for the response, Matthew. I'll try to respond to the best of my ability below:

From Oertel's own record the name is spelled JaKob Fredreich Walz, NOT Jacob Waltz.

In 2007, Dr. Oertel published a series of photocopies of his family’s notes in the SMJ. Abstatt Waltz is frequently named “Jakob” in these notes. My understanding is that these were hand-written copies of actual documents, not the actual documents themselves.

I’ve seen some of the actual documents. The actual documents, including birth and church records, spell Abstatt Waltz’s name as “Jacob” not “Jakob”. Here’s Dr. Oertel’s note from the disposition of the estate of Waltz’s father, of which Jacob was an heir:



Translated: Jacob Walz, Born November 1810, Single, Economist, 1938. Left for North America without emigrating, staying in New Orleans.

It all goes downhill from there. An excuse or alternate explanation has to be used for everything and we haven't even gotten into the fact the signatures of JaKob Walz and Dutchman Waltz are COMPLETELY different.

I’m not sure of any excuses or alternate explanations? Regarding signatures of a “JaKob Walz”, are you referring to the hand-written Oertel Notes that appeared in the 2007 SMJ article? Or, have you seen the actual documents and signatures that the notes were copied from? If so, could you please post one where the real signature is different from Dutchman Jacob Waltz’s?

Oertel goes into detail over the shotgun JaKob Walz bought and brought with him. Herman Petrasch ended up with it. Its NOT the shotgun Oertel describes. Of course there will be yet another explanation.

I’ve not seen any document where Dr. Oertel goes into any detail about the shotgun, (other than copied notes in the 2007 SMJ that Abstatt Waltz bought one), or that Herman ended up with it. I’m not sure where that story came from, I ‘m fairly certain he would entertain the question though. I’ll check and report back any response.

And the fact the JaKob Walz of Abstatt and the man on the Ville de Lyon can be traced in America and are NOT the dutchman Waltz.

You are entitled to your opinion Jim and I respect that and understand where you are coming from but that and numerous "explanations" and misleading statements (JaKob Walz - Jacob Waltz) doesn't change the facts.

Could you expand on how the man on the Ville de Lyon can be traced in America and is not the Dutchman Waltz? If there are any documents that prove or even just indicate this, I think we would all like to see them.

I agree that “explanations” and misleading statements don’t change facts I hope I haven’t made any errors, but if so, I’d ask anyone on this forum to set the record straight. My best to you as well, Matthew. Take care, Jim

 

[Matthew Roberts]

PotBelly Jim,

I don't know if you've been sold a bill of goods or what. I do know the Oertels changed Jakob Walz's name to Jacob Waltz but not sure at what point they did this.

The Abstatt records of the "Abstatt Waltz" clearly show the mans name at birth being JaKob Walz.
Here is the information the Oertels first gave the SMHS. At what point it changed I don't know other than it became important that his name somehow become Jacob Waltz.
Please note everyone in the family had the last name spelled Walz.

Burkhart and Goetz Oertel Jakob F. Walz

Jakob Friedrich Walz
Born: November 2, 1810 Vohenlohe, Wurttemberg Germany
Father: Andreas Walz died 1843
Mother: Eva Rosina Loeffer died 1852

Siblings:
Louise Jacokine Walz 1805-1808 2 years old
Carl Friedrich Walz 1807-1835 28 years old
Johann Andreas Walz June 16,1809 – 1843 34 years old
Jakob Friedrich Walz November 2, 1810 - ?
Christian Friedrich Walz 1812 - ?
Christine Louise Walz 1814 – 1837 22 years old
Johann Jakob Walz 1816 – 1842 25 years old
Christiane Elizabeth Walz 1820 – 1901 81 years old (Johann Nicolaus PREISS)
Infant Walz April 6, 1826 1 day old

Jakob F. Walz was an Oeconom (business administration major) at Schlossgut Hohenheim University Stuttgart, Wurttemberg Germany

 

[Matthew Roberts]

PotBelly Jim,

Here is a page on Walz that the Oertels put up on a German website quite a few years back.
At this time they were in the process of changing Walz name over from JaKob Friedrich Walz to Jacob Waltz but still had only changed it to JaKob Waltz.
Later on they had it as full blown Jacob Waltz.


Walz, Jakob
Andere Namensformen:
 Walz, Jakob Friedrich
 Waltz, Jakob
Geburtsdatum/-ort: 02.11.1810; Abstatt-Vohenlohe

Sterbedatum/-ort: 25.10.1891; Phoenix, Ariz. (USA)

Beruf/Funktion:  Goldsucher
 Goldgräber
Kurzbiografie: Goldsucher, 1810-1891
GND-ID: GND/1012760006

 

[PotBelly Jim]

PotBelly Jim,

I don't know if you've been sold a bill of goods or what. I do know the Oertels changed Jakob Walz's name to Jacob Waltz but not sure at what point they did this.

The Abstatt records of the "Abstatt Waltz" clearly show the mans name at birth being JaKob Walz.
Here is the information the Oertels first gave the SMHS. At what point it changed I don't know other than it became important that his name somehow become Jacob Waltz.
Please note everyone in the family had the last name spelled Walz.

Burkhart and Goetz Oertel Jakob F. Walz

Jakob Friedrich Walz
Born: November 2, 1810 Vohenlohe, Wurttemberg Germany
Father: Andreas Walz died 1843
Mother: Eva Rosina Loeffer died 1852

Siblings:
Louise Jacokine Walz 1805-1808 2 years old
Carl Friedrich Walz 1807-1835 28 years old
Johann Andreas Walz June 16,1809 – 1843 34 years old
Jakob Friedrich Walz November 2, 1810 - ?
Christian Friedrich Walz 1812 - ?
Christine Louise Walz 1814 – 1837 22 years old
Johann Jakob Walz 1816 – 1842 25 years old
Christiane Elizabeth Walz 1820 – 1901 81 years old (Johann Nicolaus PREISS)
Infant Walz April 6, 1826 1 day old

Jakob F. Walz was an Oeconom (business administration major) at Schlossgut Hohenheim University Stuttgart, Wurttemberg Germany

View attachment 1806436

I don't know if I've been sold a bill of goods ...at least not in this case.

I believe the confusion between "Jakob" and "Jacob" is easily explained. In all cases, the original documents list him as "Jacob Walz". In SOME cases, one of the Oertels used the spelling "Jakob" in their notes and in the 2007 SMJ article, even though the documents clearly stated the name was "Jacob".

Having lived and worked in Stuttgart (very near Abstatt) for some time, I casually asked quite a few German friends that happened to live near the Walz's all their lives, why this mistake might be made. The general consensus was it was an easy mistake to make, especially if locally the name is spelled "Jakob". Innocent mistake. I don't believe it somehow became important to change the spelling from "Jakob" to "Jacob" by the Oertels. I will certainly ask and get the reason from the horses mouth.

I see you have typed a list from the Oertel Notes that uses the spelling "Jakob". I can assure you this is incorrect. If one looks at the actual copy of the Abstatt Familien Register, from which your typed list is derived, one can see that the names are "Jacob Friederich" and "Johan Jacob"...neither brother is named "Jakob". For anyone interested, a copy of the actual document held in Abstatt, compiled between 1808-1854, can be found on page 133 of Dr. Glover's "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz, Unraveling a Mystery".

That document, photographed from the original (not hand-transcribed by the Oertels, or hand-typed...in other words, the most accurate possible) clearly shows their names are spelled "Jacob". Johan Jacob Walz was named after his grandfather on his father's side. Jacob Friederich Walz was named after BOTH grandfathers...Jacob for the middle name of his paternal grandfather, and Friederich for the middle name of his maternal grandfather.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

So now its Oertels fault, the man who found the information, sent it out and posted it on German websites and has never realized the mistake he made even though hes a German schooled in genealogy and German names.

OK I think I've got it.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

So now its Oertels fault, the man who found the information, sent it out and posted it on German websites and has never realized the mistake he made even though hes a German schooled in genealogy and German names.

OK I think I've got it.

You may assign fault anywhere you wish. I made it clear, that in my opinion, it was an honest mistake. He's actually a physicist but yes, he's probably one of the best German genealogists, as was his father. We're lucky to have him do the outstanding work that he does, as his day job is as a professor teaching at Bundeswehr University Munich. I do know that he provided invaluable input and guidance to Thomas Glover on his last book, which contains the Abstatt Waltz information.

EDIT: I've also been told that confusion between "Jacob" and "Jakob" might be wholly OUR fault. Americans read a lot into a different spelling of a name, while Germans really don't see much difference between Jacob, Jakob, Yakov, Jacov...It's regional, and their language is much older and has gone through so many changes in spelling and style over the eons that they easily understand the issue, while we over here make a tempest in a teapot over it.

 

[musician]

@ Potbelly Jim Correct, sometimes the difference between "c" and "k" occurs through church records. The priests often used the latin form of a name, in this case Jacobus Fredericus instead of Jacob, so other official records tend to follow that "c". It was not forbidden for a person to change that in personal use to a "k", the middle initial was not used regularly in Germany.
Anyway the concept of a correct spelling was not invented, that came later in 19th century. The concept was just to be understood, sometimes people could barely write at all. So "tz" and "z" could be interchangeable too. In my own ancestry research in Germany I found different spellings of my last name in official records. Not with c,k,tz and z, but different "i" were written as "y" "ie", "e" or even "a".

 

[PotBelly Jim]

@ Potbelly Jim Correct, sometimes the difference between "c" and "k" occurs through church records. The priests often used the latin form of a name, in this case Jacobus Fredericus instead of Jacob, so other official records tend to follow that "c". It was not forbidden for a person to change that in personal use to a "k", the middle initial was not used regularly in Germany.
Anyway the concept of a correct spelling was not invented, that came later in 19th century. The concept was just to be understood, sometimes people could barely write at all. So "tz" and "z" could be interchangeable too. In my own ancestry research in Germany I found different spellings of my last name in official records. Not with c,k,tz and z, but different "i" were written as "y" "ie", "e" or even "a".

Makes sense to me.

One of the things that gives me pause on the Abstatt Waltz being the Dutchman is how he signed his LAST name. Many people smarter than me have said it doesn't matter, but I wonder about it. The Dutchman always signed his last name with a "t" in it, and that was absolutely consistent in every known signature. I wonder if a guy named "Walz" would actually make that change.

Here's my favorite Dutchman signature...because he actually wrote more than his signature, one of the few times we have an example of his penmanship and spelling. His signature wasn't as crisp as it usually was, probably because he was writing on top of something other than a desk or table. It's a receipt for some of the Magdeburg estate goods.



I can almost see him signing for this on a hot July day in the valley...anyway it looks to me like his penmanship wasn't all that bad. He wrote "Received thirty five sacks" on the receipt.

 

[coazon de oro]

Yes, the Dutchman knew who he was, and knew how to write his name. That is really all the proof one needs to know that the man from Abstatt was not the Dutchman. There's no need to force fit some one else in the Dutchman's place to prove that he did exist.

 

[musician]

I saw scans of old documents from Vohenlohe listing the family of the father. One with Walz, one with Waltz . A reason to change could be the use the english form with tz for Walzer.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Yes, the Dutchman knew who he was, and knew how to write his name. That is really all the proof one needs to know that the man from Abstatt was not the Dutchman. There's no need to force fit some one else in the Dutchman's place to prove that he did exist.

coazon de oro,

That's very true, having to make a distinction or an excuse or alternative explanation for every aspect of the man's life to make him into the Dutchman is obvious.
What Oertel appears to have done is find a German that loosely fit the Dutchman and researched him but after the man arrived in America he lost all track of him and simply attached what we know about the Dutchman to this man.
Oertel isn't even sure his JaKob Walz is the man on the Ville de Lyon passenger list.
Oertel posted several genealogy clips on this man in Germany, he lists him as Jakob Walz on some and Jakob Waltz on others.

One really doesn't have to look any farther than the man who had a copy of the Ville de Lyon before it was transcribed (Don Vardon) and wonder why he didn't come forward with the "Dutchman."
It was because after a little more searching he found out this was not the "Dutchman."

Matthew

 

[Loke]

I have a little problem with our Jacob's signature. It looks very stylish indeed, which would fit an educated man, but ... to my simple mind, the letters are all US/English style of letters. One's handwriting (or shape of letters) doesn't really change if you go to another country, you still keep your 'original'. I have still not seen an example of Jacob's signature that remotely looks anything like German handwriting from around 1830.
just my 2c-worth ...

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I have a little problem with our Jacob's signature. It looks very stylish indeed, which would fit an educated man, but ... to my simple mind, the letters are all US/English style of letters. One's handwriting (or shape of letters) doesn't really change if you go to another country, you still keep your 'original'. I have still not seen an example of Jacob's signature that remotely looks anything like German handwriting from around 1830.
just my 2c-worth ...

An excellent point...BUT...did you happen to see how he capitalized the "S" in "Sacks"? Old habits are hard to break...All nouns, with a few exceptions, are capitalized when writing in German.

Here's another receipt from the Magdeburg estate, which is more typical of his signature...more typical of a "standard" Waltz signature. I think it has some German influences which come out a bit clearer:

 

[Loke]

An excellent point...BUT...did you happen to see how he capitalized the "S" in "Sacks"? Old habits are hard to break...All nouns, with a few exceptions, are capitalized when writing in German.

Here's another receipt from the Magdeburg estate, which is more typical of his signature...more typical of a "standard" Waltz signature. I think it has some German influences which come out a bit clearer:

View attachment 1807115

That is indeed a good point - I have never thought of capitalization - but indeed you are correct. I have mostly been concerned with the 'shape/style' of the letters, which to me are very much anglicized. Most people do not think of that, because it is what they are used to see.
But yes, that capitalization is a dead giveaway.