some confusion about the news , Arizona Gazette 22,1895

ancientones said:
Hello Blindbowman and sorry foy your loss.
For these articles, do they talk about a 5 mile circle, and if so, any variances
thru the years on how it is described?
Click to expand...
Good morning ancientones,
I don’t know if you ever got an answer to your question.
Blindbowman was banned and can’t respond at the moment 😕.

Others can certainly chime in here. The only 5 mile clue I know of, was a 5 mile diameter, and came from one of Bicknell’s articles.
Sounds like it is a summation of Bicknell, and not a clue from Waltz, but as far as I know, it is the only 5 mile reference and has not changed over time. It says the same thing it said back in 1895 😄.

Sincerely, Idahodutch
 

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I went back and read that 1895 article again, to refresh myself on the 5 mile circle statement…🤓
I confess, the 5 mile diameter clue, was one of my favorites 😁.
I also confess, that it really looks like it’s not a clue from Waltz, and may not be. 🥹

The more I read that article, the more the 5 mile statement sounds like a personal conclusion, come to by Bicknell, as to the vicinity of Waltz’s bonanza.

I have to smile, as many have debated the 5 mile clue to great lengths.
I have debated it myself. 🥸

With a calm mind, I encourage you all to read the article again, …
The 5 mile circle wording is on page 1, in the 3rd paragraph.
(Here is a link to that article)

Idahodutch said:
Here is a transcription of the 1895 article from Bicknell

View attachment 1920886
View attachment 1920887
View attachment 1920888
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View attachment 1920890
Click to expand...
The 1st attachment is page 1
😁👍
 

Idahodutch said:
I went back and read that 1895 article again, to refresh myself on the 5 mile circle statement…🤓
I confess, the 5 mile diameter clue, was one of my favorites 😁.
I also confess, that it really looks like it’s not a clue from Waltz, and may not be. 🥹

The more I read that article, the more the 5 mile statement sounds like a personal conclusion, come to by Bicknell, as to the vicinity of Waltz’s bonanza.

I have to smile, as many have debated the 5 mile clue to great lengths.
I have debated it myself. 🥸

With a calm mind, I encourage you all to read the article again, …
The 5 mile circle wording is on page 1, in the 3rd paragraph.
(Here is a link to that article)


The 1st attachment is page 1
😁👍
Click to expand...
Idahodutch,
I recall this clue growing up, but will agree it is suspect like many of his clues. Searchers have searched
LaBarge, Boulder, Needles due to S to N flowing Canyon and peak(needle) South, yet Peters Canyon fits these
same clues but I am advised I am too far out. The directions he provides and the time it took him to get there will not line up with these 3 canyons. The 5 mile clue may be bogus, but it is the one clue that provides a distance. If I were wanting to keep the location secret until I could get out there myself, this would be the clue. I recall this in an article
from a reporter who spoke to Julia T after his death, but have been advised this is incorrect. I do know Adolph Ruth
also used it in his writings. This 5 mi N of the Needle clue would match the Heart Inlay Mine.
 

Howdy Fellow Dutch Hunters,

Quoting Bicknell is the same as the blind leading the blind, (not referring to Blindbowman), but Bicknell got most of everything wrong. He used a fake story on how Waltz acquired the mine. Weiser never existed, Waltz didn't mention him in his confession, don't you wonder why? Bicknell even got the directions wrong, just because Waltz had planned to go to the board house with Julia, and Rhynie. He didn't sent Dick Holmes to the board house, wonder why? And yes, he even got the 5 mile clue wrong.

Every gold story gets tied to the LDM one way, or an other. Dutch Hunters can't help it, they make any story fit, and most of the others believe it. Ruth's story got tied in the same way, even though it has nothing to do with the LDM.

So where did the 5 mile clue come from? It comes from Doc Thorne, who was gifted some gold by the Apache way before Waltz came into the picture. Doc said that at one point when he was allowed to remove his blindfold, that he could see a stone walled circle that looked like a corral on the point of a ridge. To the South, he could see the top of a peak that looked like a Mexican sombrero. Said it was not more than 5 miles. This 5 mile clue just like every thing else became part of the LDM story, changed a little, but that's the original.

Homar
 

coazon de oro said:
Howdy Fellow Dutch Hunters,

Quoting Bicknell is the same as the blind leading the blind, (not referring to Blindbowman), but Bicknell got most of everything wrong. He used a fake story on how Waltz acquired the mine. Weiser never existed, Waltz didn't mention him in his confession, don't you wonder why? Bicknell even got the directions wrong, just because Waltz had planned to go to the board house with Julia, and Rhynie. He didn't sent Dick Holmes to the board house, wonder why? And yes, he even got the 5 mile clue wrong.

Every gold story gets tied to the LDM one way, or an other. Dutch Hunters can't help it, they make any story fit, and most of the others believe it. Ruth's story got tied in the same way, even though it has nothing to do with the LDM.

So where did the 5 mile clue come from? It comes from Doc Thorne, who was gifted some gold by the Apache way before Waltz came into the picture. Doc said that at one point when he was allowed to remove his blindfold, that he could see a stone walled circle that looked like a corral on the point of a ridge. To the South, he could see the top of a peak that looked like a Mexican sombrero. Said it was not more than 5 miles. This 5 mile clue just like every thing else became part of the LDM story, changed a little, but that's the original.

Homar
Click to expand...
Ancientones has got this 5 mile radius right. Really love all the LDM threads, deciphering the logical answers and the fiction has been part of the protection and fun.
No one wants the greedy bad boys to rape the sups. The government have done a good job enough at that.
Oz and map rooms exist.
protection is always a privilege and a curse.
Keep up the great work gentlemen , your legends go on and on.
There is purpose to everything.
Anyone know what happened to BlindBowman, I miss that wise old croc.
Greetings and good day 🌹
 

I’m glad you guys are looking at the clues.
I learned more from carefully reading the clues, than from anything else.

The question about the 5 mile clue can be answered by reading the article. 🤓👍

Everything “the woman” told to Bicknell, was by memory…. According to Bicknell’s own admission. She did not use notes.
 

coazon de oro said:
Howdy Fellow Dutch Hunters,

Quoting Bicknell is the same as the blind leading the blind, (not referring to Blindbowman), but Bicknell got most of everything wrong. He used a fake story on how Waltz acquired the mine. Weiser never existed, Waltz didn't mention him in his confession, don't you wonder why? Bicknell even got the directions wrong, just because Waltz had planned to go to the board house with Julia, and Rhynie. He didn't sent Dick Holmes to the board house, wonder why? And yes, he even got the 5 mile clue wrong.

Every gold story gets tied to the LDM one way, or an other. Dutch Hunters can't help it, they make any story fit, and most of the others believe it. Ruth's story got tied in the same way, even though it has nothing to do with the LDM.

So where did the 5 mile clue come from? It comes from Doc Thorne, who was gifted some gold by the Apache way before Waltz came into the picture. Doc said that at one point when he was allowed to remove his blindfold, that he could see a stone walled circle that looked like a corral on the point of a ridge. To the South, he could see the top of a peak that looked like a Mexican sombrero. Said it was not more than 5 miles. This 5 mile clue just like every thing else became part of the LDM story, changed a little, but that's the original.

Homar
Click to expand...
Hello Homar,
There are two stories about Waltz’s confessions.
They are different from each other.
One confession has verifiable information, the other not so much.
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be reconciliation between them.
Either one or both are false. 🥸

So far, I have been able to verify some of the confessions that were given to Julia.
There is still more to verify.

Now the directional clues from both those stories (clue sources), seem to be correct, and no need to change any of the clues. …. Unless you’re trying to make them go somewhere else. 🤓👍

The chips are in the process of falling into place. Just a friendly heads up 😎👍
 

Last edited:
Idahodutch said:
Hello Homar,
There are two stories about Waltz’s confessions.
They are different from each other.
One confession has verifiable information, the other not so much.
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be reconciliation between them.
Either one or both are false. 🥸

So far, I have been able to verify some of the confessions that were given to Julia.
There is still more to verify.

Now the directional clues from both those stories (clue sources), seem to be correct, and no need to change any of the clues. …. Unless you’re trying to make them go somewhere else. 🤓👍

The chips are in the process of falling into place. Just a friendly heads up 😎👍
Click to expand...
 

It's none of the above. The five mile clue came from Doc Thorne, for the place where his gifted gold came from. There was no LDM yet, Waltz came to Arizona years later.
After there was a LDM, Doc's clues got mixed in to Waltz's clues. The stone wall circle, and the peak that looked like a sombrero not more than 5 miles away, took a different form. They became a 5 mile circle with Weaver's Needle in the middle. It has never been a Waltz clue.

The LDM is very real, it has a lot of it's own real clues, and real directions, such as, "No miner will find my mine". Meaning gold is where you find it, over the decades, many of the top prospectors, and geologists have failed, and will continue to fail. There are no dump or tailings for a reason. It can only be found by following directions, and the clues.
 

Idahodutch said:
Hello Homar,
There are two stories about Waltz’s confessions.
They are different from each other.
One confession has verifiable information, the other not so much.
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be reconciliation between them.
Either one or both are false. 🥸

So far, I have been able to verify some of the confessions that were given to Julia.
There is still more to verify.

Now the directional clues from both those stories (clue sources), seem to be correct, and no need to change any of the clues. …. Unless you’re trying to make them go somewhere else. 🤓👍

The chips are in the process of falling into place. Just a friendly heads up 😎👍
Click to expand...
Howdy Idahodutch,
I was responding to the radius =/= diameter, but forgot to hit the reply button.
There was only one deathbed confession, Waltz just died once, but you are free to believe all the lies that have come out of this story. It is not easy to find the truth, but it is out there. Julia was told a lot of truth from Waltz in all those months that she tended to him. Can't really blame her for mixing some truth and lies together.
Brownie Holmes told Mr. Worst that he didn't know is Waltz lied to his father (Dick), but that he (Brownie) never lied to him (Worst). I joke a lot, but I have never lied to you, or anyone here, and no, Waltz didn't lie to Dick Holmes. No need to change any of his clues to fit anything else.
 

ConceptualizedNetherlandr said:
radius =/= diameter. Can we all pick one and agree to it?
Click to expand...
CN,
People can do what they want, but the wording is diameter.

The 3rd paragraph of the 1st page ….
Here is a snip that does not require any clicking to read it 😎👍

0C192E19-7CE0-419C-A77C-A127FE1245E5.jpeg

I hope that clears up things. 🤷🏼‍♂️😁
 

coazon de oro said:
Howdy Idahodutch,
I was responding to the radius =/= diameter, but forgot to hit the reply button.
There was only one deathbed confession, Waltz just died once, but you are free to believe all the lies that have come out of this story. It is not easy to find the truth, but it is out there. Julia was told a lot of truth from Waltz in all those months that she tended to him. Can't really blame her for mixing some truth and lies together.
Brownie Holmes told Mr. Worst that he didn't know is Waltz lied to his father (Dick), but that he (Brownie) never lied to him (Worst). I joke a lot, but I have never lied to you, or anyone here, and no, Waltz didn't lie to Dick Holmes. No need to change any of his clues to fit anything else.
Click to expand...
Homar,
Thanks for sharing your beliefs. They are different than mine. I should let you know, your arguments have not swayed me in the least 🤓, but maybe one day 👍😁

I appreciate your posts, 😎
Sincerely,
Idahodutch
 

If Weavers Needle is the center of the 5 mile diameter as given in the PC Bicknell article, the mine would be no farther than 2.5 miles away from Weavers Needle in any direction.

The stone house Bicknell found at Angel Basin is almost 12 miles from Weavers Needle.

Bicknell got and used the 5 mile distance from Abraham Thorne. Thorne's clue designated a cache of indian gold he believed to have been in the Sierra Ancha mountains.

Thorne never used the 5 mile distance in relation to Weavers Needle. It was Bicknell who added Weavers Needle to Thorne's 5 mile distance.

Aztec Peak was the Sombrero Butte Thorne was referring to, not Weavers Needle.
 

Last edited:
Matthew Roberts said:
If Weavers Needle is the center of the 5 mile diameter as given in the PC Bicknell article, the mine would be no farther than 2.5 miles away from Weavers Needle in any direction.

The stone house Bicknell found at Angel Basin is almost 12 miles from Weavers Needle.

Bicknell got and used the 5 mile distance from Abraham Thorne. Thorne's clue designated a cache of indian gold he believed to have been in the Sierra Ancha mountains.

Thorne never used the 5 mile distance in relation to Weavers Needle. It was Bicknell who added Weavers Needle to Thorne's 5 mile distance.

Aztec Peak was the Sombrero Butte Thorne was referring to, not Weavers Needle.
Click to expand...
The 5 mi. clue was 'the' clue that stood out due to the one clue giving the 'distance'. All his clues were simple words, the 'It lies within an imaginary circle whose diameter is not more than 5 mi....' These are not his words, on his death bed, giving directions. So they have been 'changed', but it is a supposed clue. He said 'the peak is to the South(presumed WN). Why would he say the peak is to the South and advising the peak is in the middle of the circle-now any direction? I can assume those present knew what his was talking about. If so, why did they not just pass the clue 2 1/2 mi. N of the peak? Add to this the confusion about if Julia was present or fetching the Dr., or if was even a valid clue. Nothing of this mine has been found 2 1/2 mi N of the Needle-due to this clue. So I put the 5 mi circle from the Needle.
He advised how he obtained/found his mine.. Many of the clues for 'his' mine are actually for the Mexican mine, but his story has truth. There are many mines in here and the Mex miners missed places. Pick ax marks are everywhere. There is a slight 'variance' in his mines location though.
The Sombrero butte/peak was a common landmark used by the Mexicans for an area, not for 1 'specific' peak. There are 2 Peralta sketch maps, 1846 showing a Sombrero at the East end(Tortilla) and 1847 sketch showing entrance into Peters Canyon from the South. This reflects a 'Sombrero' butte/peak on the N end of Malapais Mtn-just W of Peters. I named this mine for this butte. From the top of this butte you can see MANY signs directing you to the mines, trails, etc-why the butte was named, mapped and what used for. This would apply for Sombrero buttes/peak listed on other maps.
 

ancientones said:
The 5 mi. clue was 'the' clue that stood out due to the one clue giving the 'distance'. All his clues were simple words, the 'It lies within an imaginary circle whose diameter is not more than 5 mi....' These are not his words, on his death bed, giving directions. So they have been 'changed', but it is a supposed clue. He said 'the peak is to the South(presumed WN). Why would he say the peak is to the South and advising the peak is in the middle of the circle-now any direction? I can assume those present knew what his was talking about. If so, why did they not just pass the clue 2 1/2 mi. N of the peak? Add to this the confusion about if Julia was present or fetching the Dr., or if was even a valid clue. Nothing of this mine has been found 2 1/2 mi N of the Needle-due to this clue. So I put the 5 mi circle from the Needle.
He advised how he obtained/found his mine.. Many of the clues for 'his' mine are actually for the Mexican mine, but his story has truth. There are many mines in here and the Mex miners missed places. Pick ax marks are everywhere. There is a slight 'variance' in his mines location though.
The Sombrero butte/peak was a common landmark used by the Mexicans for an area, not for 1 'specific' peak. There are 2 Peralta sketch maps, 1846 showing a Sombrero at the East end(Tortilla) and 1847 sketch showing entrance into Peters Canyon from the South. This reflects a 'Sombrero' butte/peak on the N end of Malapais Mtn-just W of Peters. I named this mine for this butte. From the top of this butte you can see MANY signs directing you to the mines, trails, etc-why the butte was named, mapped and what used for. This would apply for Sombrero buttes/peak listed on other maps.
Click to expand...
Can you post the 2 maps your referring to?
 

Doc4261 said:
Can you post the 2 maps your referring to?
Click to expand...
1680923175483.png

Tortilla runs across the middle of the page. This is a 'Sombrero' hill on a side canyon running South off Tortilla.
This shows a mine below on the same side of the Canyon.
A couple versions of a Peralta map South side of Peters facing North down the canyon-Sombrero on the Left side
mtn. and mine on 'other' side(East) of canyon.
1680923797500.png

1680923849088.png
 

Clay Diggins said:
Are you trying to say these maps were created in 1846?
Click to expand...
Not sure when created but by the Mexicans for the mines in here. If one believes the story it advised 1846 is when they came here. The Peralta Stone map enters the site S of Tortilla, so is possible they started here. The Heart inlay, just my opinion, was updated in 1847 for the 'rich' mine location and to advise 10 mines within the site. The 2 lower sketch maps are specific for the 'rich' mine location entering from the S end of Peters. This may have been made later to show others where this mine is at the site, by someone who visited.
No doubt there is other Mexican material about this mine and site.
 

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