Video - Journey to the Bat Cave

[azdave35]

Dave,

Good to hear from you. Hope all is well at the home front.

As you know, I don't know $#!t about rocks, but it's nice to have someone who does know such things agree with my unqualified opinion. I'm not sure that they bored 300 ft. of tunnel, although I do believe they widened that tunnel, which is why those walls are so straight.

Do you think the ore that is in Frank's picture could also carry silver? I'm over my head here, but have always wondered if a rich vein of gold could be found in the middle of silver ore.

Take care,

Joe

howdy joe..everything is good here...i'm also not sure how far the tunnel was bored...thats the number i was told....on franks ore its hard telling from a pic but i can assay it if someone wants to bring it over....and yes quite a few rich gold ores have been found in silver country...the area around superior is full of them...with the geology in arizona anything is possible

 

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[whiskeyrat]

awesome vidoes thanks a bunch. keep up the good work

 

[cactusjumper]

howdy joe..everything is good here...i'm also not sure how far the tunnel was bored...thats the number i was told....on franks ore its hard telling from a pic but i can assay it if someone wants to bring it over....and yes quite a few rich gold ores have been found in silver country...the area around superior is full of them...with the geology in arizona anything is possible

Dave,

I imagine that any ore that might have been taken out of the Pit Mine has already been assayed......privately. On the other hand, if it was silver ore with gold visible, as in the picture, can't imagine that an assay was needed for such a small operation. Maybe they would do it out of curiosity to see if it approached the stated worth of the LDM.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

I imagine that any ore that might have been taken out of the Pit Mine has already been assayed......privately. On the other hand, if it was silver ore with gold visible, as in the picture, can't imagine that an assay was needed for such a small operation. Maybe they would do it out of curiosity to see if it approached the stated worth of the LDM.

Take care,

Joe

joe....most of what you see on silver ore is not native silver...it is usually a silver or copper sulfide or a chloride such as argentite or chalcocite, cerargyrite etc...all have a metallic appearance but are not native metal...it can make a rock look like its loaded with silver when it isnt...kinda the same thing as fools gold...iron pyrite and chacopyrite appear to be a yellow metal but in reality are both sulfides

 

[RG1976]

Bill Burger with the FS has permitted to post our dialogue in response to the ladder at the bat cave.

See below

Email 1


Email 2


Email 3




Email 4

 

[cw0909]

i had a little time to look at the AZGS Document Repository,
and have a date range search pg for maricopa county, havent
had time to search much, did find that guano is a source of
nitrates, so that might be a good search term, when searching
the docs

[h=1]Maricopa County[/h]Publication Date
Search: Maricopa County | AZGS Document Repository

 

[azblackbird]

did find that guano is a source of
nitrates, so that might be a good search term, when searching
the docs

Guano is a phosphate. I seriously doubt you will find any guano claims or notice of locations filed here in Maricopa County. What little guano mining there may have been in the SWA was under the radar.

 

[RG1976]

I thought the slight jab Mr. Burger took towards the series was .... funny.

 

[copperpot]

I thought the slight jab Mr. Burger took towards the series was .... funny.

yeah that part was good lol

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

That entrance atop the ladder is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[gollum]

I have scoured newspaper articles, and the only thing I can find that might be our Bat Cave Guano Mine is this:



The actual location is about 18 miles NorthWEST of Globe, but this article is the best chance at being our Bat Cave (16 June 1901).

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

Good to see you back posting again.

I think Mike answered many of the questions that people have asked about the Pit Mine. I believe many if not most of the LDM clues are made up out of whole cloth.

I think you know I respect your opinions above most of the folks I know, but do wonder if the piece of ore in Frank's picture gives you some degree of pause? Once again, I don't see folks working that mine for silver ore back in 1997, 98 and 99. Big risk for relatively small return.

IMHO, many of the LDM stories and legends are woven around a few facts. Seldom see much meat on those bones, but good stories just the same.

When I look at Frank's picture, I doubt it could be anyone's piece of ore, other than the principles who worked it. Did it come from the Pit Mine or some other place? I believe I know the options for that to be the case. On the other hand, the rock looks like my samples from the Pit Mine

I do not know why this keeps getting misunderstood. I have never said that the people who worked in the Pit mine in recent years, were mining SILVER. What I have said is that I think they hit a pocket of gold in a silver mine. It is not all that rare for a pocket of gold to be found in silver mines, especially at depth. This is a matter of record in a number of silver mines in the Tombstone district, and in the eastern Superstitions as well. Pockets of gold have been found in copper mines too.

Without holding that ore specimen in hand, and judging just from the photo, it looks like very good ore - however it does not look to be a match for the LDM ore to me.

I have to respectfully disagree with Arizona Dave too, men will dig for hundreds of feet to get silver. I am NOT saying that the people who worked in the Pit mine so profitably in recent years, were after silver! But silver mines have been dug to great depths. It may SEEM like no one would ever do it, but it is a fact that people have and still do. One example is the Sunshine silver mine in Idaho which has been sunk to below 4000 feet, and at depth they struck veins of COPPER in a SILVER mine. This was also noted in the silver mines in the Santa Ritas in Arizona, at a certain depth, copper was found. Don't use your own motivation rules to define what another man may be willing to do to earn money. This holds true in many areas besides mining.

Side point here but just as you can find silver and copper (and lead, zinc etc) in a gold mine, likewise you can find gold, copper, lead etc in a silver mine. Many of the silver mines of the Santa Rita mountains would be thought to be copper mines by anyone looking at them, for they have copper minerals besides the silver content.

The stories of the Lost Dutchman have been blended in with several other lost mine legends, which are not related! The earliest version of the lost Peralta mine that i could find, was that it was a SILVER mine! At least one version of the Ludy "brothers" (whom may have been father and son, uncle and nephew etc we just don't know at this point) had it that their mine was a SILVER mine. As Mike put it, the funnel shaped pit story can be traced to this lost mine legend. If anything I would propose that the infamous Pit mine is in fact the lost Peralta or Ludy mine!

As to how the Peralta legend got mixed in with the LDM, it is possible that Waltz himself is responsible for the mixing. Remember the Holmes version of events, in which Waltz is reported as having caught Holmes trailing him? Waltz was certainly wise enough to realize that greedy men were after his gold mine. It is a small step to then mix in an older legend he knew of, to really confuse anyone trying to find his mine.

In support of this contention, that alternate version found in the Pioneer interviews, which is so brief and so lacking in details (or exciting drama) as to get short shrift among treasure hunters, is so different as to raise questions. Either the Julia/Reiney & Holmes versions are correct, and these have been tried many, perhaps countless times without success, or that strange and short story is correct. There is no funnel shaped pit, no tunnel driven in from the side, no massacre, and no Peraltas in that alternate version. Yet in the Ludy tale, all of these aspects are found, even predating the LDM. That should raise red flags. Plus we have Bicknell's tale of having tried to follow those directions (obtained from Julia, one of the first to do so) he ended up finding a stone cabin alright, and clear evidence of SILVER smelting! Not gold! Dick Holmes assay of Waltz's ore showed something like 2 ounces of silver per ton, versus something on the order of 5300 oz of gold per ton. That is a very low ratio of silver to gold, which is very different from what we are seeing in the Pit ore. I would like to see an assay report on that Pit ore, my bet is that it will prove to be fairly rich in silver besides the gold content, certainly more than a one to 2600 silver to gold ratio as from the only known assay of LDM ore.

You are all welcome and free to disagree with me on every point, but based on what I have tried (so far very unsuccessfully) to explain, I see multiple reasons to NOT think the Pit mine is or ever was the Lost Dutchman's gold mine. No offense intended for those whom do believe it is the LDM of course, just my own opinion.

Good luck and good hunting Joe and anyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco


PS I will add some stuff to support that statement about finding pockets of gold in silver mines, in a moment. Whoops almost forgot the virtual coffee!

 

[azblackbird]

I have scoured newspaper articles, and the only thing I can find that might be our Bat Cave Guano Mine is this

Go rafting and camping down the Salt River and you'll find tons of "bat caves". I'm pretty sure I know the area the article is referring.

 

[Oroblanco]

Pockets of gold found in SILVER mines

Mohave County miner., August 18, 1917, Page SEVEN

from
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84024828/1917-08-18/ed-1/seq-7/

Evening bulletin., May 20, 1902, Page 6

from
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn82016413/1902-05-20/ed-1/seq-6/

Mohave County miner. (Mineral Park, A.T. [Ariz.]) 1882-1918, May 24, 1902

from
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84024828/1902-05-24/ed-1/seq-4/

Gold found in copper claims
Mohave County miner. (Mineral Park, A.T. [Ariz.]) 1882-1918, February 22, 1913

from
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84024828/1913-02-22/ed-1/seq-5/

Mines with Millions in Them
The extent of the mineral resources of the western sierras is almost beyond belief. They are practically inexhaustible. Everywhere is hidden treasure. Sinaloa alone has, for instance, an area of nearly thirty-five thousand square miles, and three fourths of the state is mineralized. Silver is the chief metal, though large amounts of gold, usually found in pockets, have made more than one miner a millionaire. I was told of a case where pocket gold paid all expenses of operating a silver mine, and left the silver as clear profit.

<The Outing Magazine, vol 54, 1909, pp 714 available on Google books>

Now can you believe, that pockets of gold are sometimes found in silver mines?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[copperpot]

I have scoured newspaper articles, and the only thing I can find that might be our Bat Cave Guano Mine is this:

View attachment 1144581

The actual location is about 18 miles NorthWEST of Globe, but this article is the best chance at being our Bat Cave (16 June 1901).

Mike

$10 per ton...$10 back then is roughly $287 of our dollars today.

 

[azdave35]

Cactusjumper wrote


[/FONT]I do not know why this keeps getting misunderstood. I have never said that the people who worked in the Pit mine in recent years, were mining SILVER. What I have said is that I think they hit a pocket of gold in a silver mine. It is not all that rare for a pocket of gold to be found in silver mines, especially at depth. This is a matter of record in a number of silver mines in the Tombstone district, and in the eastern Superstitions as well. Pockets of gold have been found in copper mines too.

Without holding that ore specimen in hand, and judging just from the photo, it looks like very good ore - however it does not look to be a match for the LDM ore to me.

I have to respectfully disagree with Arizona Dave too, men will dig for hundreds of feet to get silver. I am NOT saying that the people who worked in the Pit mine so profitably in recent years, were after silver! But silver mines have been dug to great depths. It may SEEM like no one would ever do it, but it is a fact that people have and still do. One example is the Sunshine silver mine in Idaho which has been sunk to below 4000 feet, and at depth they struck veins of COPPER in a SILVER mine. This was also noted in the silver mines in the Santa Ritas in Arizona, at a certain depth, copper was found. Don't use your own motivation rules to define what another man may be willing to do to earn money. This holds true in many areas besides mining.

Side point here but just as you can find silver and copper (and lead, zinc etc) in a gold mine, likewise you can find gold, copper, lead etc in a silver mine. Many of the silver mines of the Santa Rita mountains would be thought to be copper mines by anyone looking at them, for they have copper minerals besides the silver content.

The stories of the Lost Dutchman have been blended in with several other lost mine legends, which are not related! The earliest version of the lost Peralta mine that i could find, was that it was a SILVER mine! At least one version of the Ludy "brothers" (whom may have been father and son, uncle and nephew etc we just don't know at this point) had it that their mine was a SILVER mine. As Mike put it, the funnel shaped pit story can be traced to this lost mine legend. If anything I would propose that the infamous Pit mine is in fact the lost Peralta or Ludy mine!

As to how the Peralta legend got mixed in with the LDM, it is possible that Waltz himself is responsible for the mixing. Remember the Holmes version of events, in which Waltz is reported as having caught Holmes trailing him? Waltz was certainly wise enough to realize that greedy men were after his gold mine. It is a small step to then mix in an older legend he knew of, to really confuse anyone trying to find his mine.

In support of this contention, that alternate version found in the Pioneer interviews, which is so brief and so lacking in details (or exciting drama) as to get short shrift among treasure hunters, is so different as to raise questions. Either the Julia/Reiney & Holmes versions are correct, and these have been tried many, perhaps countless times without success, or that strange and short story is correct. There is no funnel shaped pit, no tunnel driven in from the side, no massacre, and no Peraltas in that alternate version. Yet in the Ludy tale, all of these aspects are found, even predating the LDM. That should raise red flags. Plus we have Bicknell's tale of having tried to follow those directions (obtained from Julia, one of the first to do so) he ended up finding a stone cabin alright, and clear evidence of SILVER smelting! Not gold! Dick Holmes assay of Waltz's ore showed something like 2 ounces of silver per ton, versus something on the order of 5300 oz of gold per ton. That is a very low ratio of silver to gold, which is very different from what we are seeing in the Pit ore. I would like to see an assay report on that Pit ore, my bet is that it will prove to be fairly rich in silver besides the gold content, certainly more than a one to 2600 silver to gold ratio as from the only known assay of LDM ore.

You are all welcome and free to disagree with me on every point, but based on what I have tried (so far very unsuccessfully) to explain, I see multiple reasons to NOT think the Pit mine is or ever was the Lost Dutchman's gold mine. No offense intended for those whom do believe it is the LDM of course, just my own opinion.

Good luck and good hunting Joe and anyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco


PS I will add some stuff to support that statement about finding pockets of gold in silver mines, in a moment. Whoops almost forgot the virtual coffee!

roy...yes..you are correct...men will dig hundreds of feet for silver...arizona is full of many miles of tunnels and shafts that were put in for mining silver...and of course they hit pockets of gold in silver mines..lol..it helps pay expenses...all of the big copper mines make way more money on gold, silver and platinum than they do on copper...all i'm saying is whoever worked the pit mine in the 90's did not work it for silver...the profit margin wouldnt have been worth the risk..and like i said before..most silver ores are sulfides...and are what is known as rebellious ores...difficult and expensive to process ..the only way the pit mine would have been worth the risk is if the ore was gold and very rich..what they call jewelry rock

 

[roadrunner]

Here Oro and anyone else that wants to see how deep and what a copper mine has in it.
Read the whole thing.Pay attention to the depth, and to the thickness of the veins, ect.
Thia was a very old mine also.
I have been in the entrance with my son a little ways.
I will have to look but I think 9000 or 900 ozs was taken out total for all the years. But don,t quote me on that or say I am wrong because I am more than likely wrong.

Lake Superior LS mine.

 

[releventchair]

Some known guano deposits.
Some interesting reading and potential sites for...stuff.


The deposit is located in Santa Cruz County about 30 miles west of Nogales.
Nothing is surveyed here with reference to sections, to the best of my knowledge,
but all is within the forest reserve. You will note that I have marked
the international boundary, and monument 129 is directly south of Pena
Blanca. I am positive of this number (129). At Casa Piedras [northwest]
I think is monument 132, and 130 or 131 is on top of the hill just due south
of the place where I found the deposit. By reference to the map inclosed
you will see a point marked " spring " in the deep canyon that adjoins and lies
parallel with the boundary line. That is where I found the nitrate, and it
extends in a northerly direction through the rough mountains nearly to the
point "tipper or little Bear Valley." There is an old and well-marked trail
from an old adobe house south directly to the monument referred to and a
group of very noticeable Indian markings close to the spring.
Two samples were submitted with the letter. Upon examination
in the Geological Survey laboratory they proved to be sandstone
impregnated with a very small amount of potassium nitrate. On
Mr. Kent's map the names of several small settlements appear, together
with locations of mines and of old adobe houses. Obviously
the region has for a long time been sparsely inhabited, and these
people may have kept horses or other stock. Thus at least some
possible organic sources of nitrate are present. It is particularly
significant that Mr. Kent should have found the nitrate near a
spring, close to which were marking
http://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/0838/report.pdf

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

RR, funny that it is titled "Lake Superior LS mine" ... that made me think of the rich ores which actually exist around that great lake - Keweenaw peninsula . Some of that was so pure they couldn't figure out how to mine it out. blast it? copper responds by being puffed. Cut it? good luck! One mass was 520 tons

 

[Oroblanco]

roy...yes<snip>

Not ALL of those two posts were aimed at you amigo, have been debating this aspect with Joe and a few others for years now.