Video 4 - The Peralta Stone Maps with Frank Augustine

[cw0909]

ive read 2-3 dif accounts of where stones were found, i posted those pdf links
hoping folks would chime in about the old Hwy, thanks roadrunner and Matthew
maybe the place and yr, of the find can at least get narrowed down
im in the just never knew what to make of those stones box
mine,treasure maps,? the ultimate art project but why?
wonder if anyone that has direct knowledge has ever heard of wiki leaks
or a similar platform LOL

roadrunner,

This is what I tried to say earlier and was basically told "Bert Love" was the expert and he had the "best" information gotten directly from the uncle, Robert Tumlinson so respectfully I let the show go on.

Love said Tumlinson found the Stone Maps in 1948. The highway was moved in 1949-1950.

So if Love is the "expert", the stones were found in 1948 north of the old highway.

Not the new highway 60 bridge.

There's a lot more to the story that is being ignored but it would just interrupt things.

Matthew

 

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[roadrunner]

The red house must have been an old stage stop or something.
Why would a house be there in the middle of no mans land.
Coyotes den came after the original house I believe.
It was basically in ruins 20 years ago or longer.
There was a roundabout driveway in front.
I do remember the red color.

I still live in the east valley and go to superior at least 1-2 times a month if some one needs a new pic or something taken.
My wife and I have hiked all over the East Supes as well.
I have hit every wash in the Superior area for gold with her.
Nada!!!!

 

[somehiker]

roadrunner,

This is what I tried to say earlier and was basically told "Bert Love" was the expert and he had the "best" information gotten directly from the uncle, Robert Tumlinson so respectfully I let the show go on.

Love said Tumlinson found the Stone Maps in 1948. The highway was moved in 1949-1950.

So if Love is the "expert", the stones were found in 1948 north of the old highway.

Not the new highway 60 bridge.

There's a lot more to the story that is being ignored but it would just interrupt things.

Matthew

Matthew:

Such is how history becomes clouded and confused, whether it be that of the LDM, the SM's or many other topics.
Far too many " I was told " 's have been flung against the walls of our research efforts IMO, making it much more difficult to arrive at the truth.
Even "basically", I told you no such thing. Although Bert Love was one of the stockholders of MOEL, and was helping Richard Peck in his attempt to verify the history of the stones as well as to gather additional information from those closest to Travis and Aileen Tumlinson, I would by no means consider him an expert.

Matthew:

In the absence of Travis Tumlinson's manuscript, I consider this account from Robert Tumlinson, as reported by Bert Love in his letter to Richard Peck April 12,1965 as being the best information we currently have as to the dates, location, and circumstances re: the finding of the Tumlinson stones.

from Gary Cundiff's website:

View attachment 1167263

BTW: "the highway was moved in 1949-1950".....source?

Regards:SH

 

[coazon de oro]

Good Morning Homar,

Walt Whitman said " Whatever satisfies the soul, is truth" - and I have often found this to be the case when it comes to stories where truth is not always transparent - such as anything related to Jacob Waltz, The Dutchman Mine & The Stone Maps.

As I've mentioned here, countless times, I am not a treasure hunter. I am a "legend hunter" and as part of my videos, its important to understand both sides of the story so that I am able to, with a lot of patience, present both sides. I believe that anyone that attaches themselves to "one side of the story" without knowing the other, is doing themselves a disservice.

Garry Cundiff, in my opinion, is a pretty stellar guy. He has put "boots on the ground", he has contacted those involved with the legend, and has spent quite a bit of money, time and effort doing so. He earned the trust of the family - and over a handful of years - was able to get quite a bit of information. Anyone who does that - is a phenomenal person and researcher.

In contrast:

Ive been contacted by a large handful of folks that live in other states, that for whatever reason - be it monetary, health, or just a lack of time - have never stepped foot into the mountains....but have unequivocally solved the stone maps via Google Earth. While I respect these folks convictions, it reminds me a lot of a girl that I know - that met her "soul mate" on Match.com She exchanged emails with him - professed her love for him - and let all of us know how amazing he is.

Last month, she bought a plane ticket to go visit him. When she arrived, he was someone completely different. She was devastated and heart broken.

I would imagine these two scenarios are pretty identical - and brings me back to the quote from Whitman - "whatever satisfies the soul, is truth"

Howdy Ryan,

Seems that Walt Whitman was living in denial, or just couldn't handle the truth. Anyone who agrees with that mentality doesn't care about the truth. The truth does not always satisfy the soul. What's the point of being a legend hunter if you are not after the truth? We already have Go Go Luckey Entertainment.

I agree with you that the truth on the LDM, and the PSM's is not transparent to most, but it is there. I have seen and heard all sides with an open mind, how do you think I find the facts that I present? It is when you disregard facts just to satisfy the soul, when you do a disservice to yourself.

Just because I find that Garrry overlooked the most telltale evidence that proves Travis did not create the PSM's, does not mean I have anything against him. It does not matter is he is the best person in the world, he is not the one being scrutinized. When something is flawed, it is flawed.

Homar

 

[Azquester]

Bill since both people in video are members here and you knew this before you posted, why would you start your post by insulting the narration?

TN,

Memorial Day Weekend, celebrating his video success, I was joking, just like I was joking about the peed maps that's why I put the laugh face on them I thought that was what it's for.

This is a message for Frank and especially you Ryan:

"Public Apology too Frank Augustine and Ryan Gordon both I meant no disrespect nor harm to either of you or your excellent Video."


As a matter of fact you've both done a fantastic job of finding true history which is in any form a find of great importance worthy of the attention you both gave to the details while showing both sides with new evidence in favor of the find Travis made, and against him. When I was there I hadn't seen the Maps up close yet and would have over looked the tombstone thick piece of history that's the best job of telling a story you must have learned from the people that filmed you Frank good going!

I thought the Video was powerful and straight on. It truly had an impact on my beliefs.

Ryan, I owe you the biggest apology I made a mistake and brought your guys thread into panic mode. Please except my sincere apology you did a absolutely terrific job of telling the story I was just kidding. Never meant any harm only fun.

Lets please move on now.

TN,

If I was attacked while away for what I said and people got hurt because of me I publicly apologize to those people as well.

If you think anything I say may be harmful just delete it TN please I don't want people getting teed off over nixing of words.


Now I need a few beers.

 

[somehiker]

1167940[/ATTACH]

Can you post a link to the original newspaper article ?

All I have is this....... from the 1973 Frontier Times McGee article....same photo

FRONTIER TIMES - 1973 - PERALTA STONE MAPS ARTICLE - DesertUSA.com/mb3

View attachment McGee article.bmp

Thanks:SH.

 

[RG1976]

Howdy Ryan,

Seems that Walt Whitman was living in denial, or just couldn't handle the truth. Anyone who agrees with that mentality doesn't care about the truth. The truth does not always satisfy the soul. What's the point of being a legend hunter if you are not after the truth? We already have Go Go Luckey Entertainment.

I agree with you that the truth on the LDM, and the PSM's is not transparent to most, but it is there. I have seen and heard all sides with an open mind, how do you think I find the facts that I present? It is when you disregard facts just to satisfy the soul, when you do a disservice to yourself.

Just because I find that Garrry overlooked the most telltale evidence that proves Travis did not create the PSM's, does not mean I have anything against him. It does not matter is he is the best person in the world, he is not the one being scrutinized. When something is flawed, it is flawed.

Homar

Hey Homar - Good evening!

I appreciate your comments - thank you! Walt Whitman is known as one of the most prolific authors in recent history - and I whole heartily agree with his quote. I understand that you disagree with him, and also myself, and that is perfectly okay! Should you ever have the time to visit the Superstitions - and can find something tangible with your theories - I would be your biggest fan! Google Earth is a handy resource - and I appreciate that you have used that service to align with your findings. Many here certainly have. I am of the opinion that to have a firm grasp on anything, its always best to visit locations in person.

@markmar I don't have the intention of ever becoming a "treasure hunter". I enjoy video / photography and exploring legend. As for me appearing in a video - perhaps I will! Now that I have Frank coming along - I'll teach him how to shoot!

@cactusjumper Thank you so much - I cannot wait and will certainly do my best to use your information in an upcoming video.

Frank and I - along with some other well known Dutch-Hunters and prospectors have some pretty exciting videos planned. From the Bradshaws, to continuing to explore the Superstitions and the Tumlinson site, to the Silver King and many others. I really look forward to being able to have these videos for you all to see! My buddy Dave mentioned that we have some sponsors now - and that will certainly increase the frequency and quality of videos going forward.

 

[Azquester]

Here's a couple of bedrock hearts.

One half buried "Treasure" and one with gold lightening "Mine".



View attachment 1168027 View attachment 1168028

 

[Azquester]

Can you post a link to the original newspaper article ?

All I have is this....... from the 1773 Frontier Times McGee article....same photo

FRONTIER TIMES - 1973 - PERALTA STONE MAPS ARTICLE - DesertUSA.com/mb3

View attachment 1168029

Thanks:SH.

Wayne,

I had forgot about that article. Interesting I see something I searched for up there that I had never found until this article you posted refreshing my memory Wayne. I knew about it back then when searching but it never struck me as what I thought it was. Being familiar to the area as many are it seems I've seen and photographed a lot up there.

I think we've all been looking in the wrong places for Travis's holes. I've given a lot of time up there searching for the same dig site as everyone on here. The Cactus clues I talked about earlier have come to pass. At least for the site Frank and Ryan went too and filmed. It may matter in the long run or it may not. But the cactus's they found in a circle I checked for the freemasons thumb carved in the upper arm and none were there.

That article was what I used for the first area's I looked.


Thanks for posting it.

 

[RG1976]

This picture is from below the site which I believe describes the Chest stone map in the land shapes . I think in the middle of the photo , on the side wall , are the numbers 35 . Could be a part of the 1535 which are carved on the Chest map ?
Or are a coincidence , or Nature's " games " ?

View attachment 1167799

I believe you have posted the same image before. Have you been to this site? Do you have any shots of the number 35? I'm not able to see what you're taking about.

Also - the chest stone? The map that is a known Tumlinson creation?

 

[Old]

Thank you cw0909 for the links you provided. The road construction analysis is dry reading but contains tidbits of good information concerning the older versions of US Route 60. One mention of an "abandoned" pull off in the area was particularly interesting.

Its hard to nail down exactly which configuration Tumlinson would have been using in that we don't know to a certainty the actual date of discovery. The road seems to have changed a couple times between 1949 and 1955. But; its obvious there are multiple sites north of the existing roadway which "could" have been the one. I know I'm stepping on the "X" marks the spot on the atlas map. But; being mindful that Tumlinson wasn't local to the area, he "could have" just marked the spot where the road crossed the creek, unmindful that the road keep moving around.

For those that like history and nostalgia don't miss the link cw0909 provided at

Portrait of a Highway: US 60 / Queen Creek Canyon, AZ

Quite a treasure of photos there. This is the roadway Adolph Ruth would have used as he traveled from DC to Phoenix. Interesting stuff.

Lynda

 

[Hal Croves]

Thank you cw0909 for the links you provided. The road construction analysis is dry reading but contains tidbits of good information concerning the older versions of US Route 60. One mention of an "abandoned" pull off in the area was particularly interesting.

Its hard to nail down exactly which configuration Tumlinson would have been using in that we don't know to a certainty the actual date of discovery. The road seems to have changed a couple times between 1949 and 1955. But; its obvious there are multiple sites north of the existing roadway which "could" have been the one. I know I'm stepping on the "X" marks the spot on the atlas map. But; being mindful that Tumlinson wasn't local to the area, he "could have" just marked the spot where the road crossed the creek, unmindful that the road keep moving around.

For those that like history and nostalgia don't miss the link cw0909 provided at

Portrait of a Highway: US 60 / Queen Creek Canyon, AZ

Quite a treasure of photos there. This is the roadway Adolph Ruth would have used as he traveled from DC to Phoenix. Interesting stuff.

Lynda

And here, the vehicle that may have been used to get him there.

Image: Arizona Historical Society
View attachment 1168062

 

[deducer]

IMO, the best part of this video is the interesting and intelligent discussion it has generated. Hopefully this continues- looking forward to more!

 

[Hal Croves]

Howdy Ryan,

Seems that Walt Whitman was living in denial, or just couldn't handle the truth. Anyone who agrees with that mentality doesn't care about the truth. The truth does not always satisfy the soul. What's the point of being a legend hunter if you are not after the truth? We already have Go Go Luckey Entertainment.

I agree with you that the truth on the LDM, and the PSM's is not transparent to most, but it is there. I have seen and heard all sides with an open mind, how do you think I find the facts that I present? It is when you disregard facts just to satisfy the soul, when you do a disservice to yourself.

Just because I find that Garrry overlooked the most telltale evidence that proves Travis did not create the PSM's, does not mean I have anything against him. It does not matter is he is the best person in the world, he is not the one being scrutinized. When something is flawed, it is flawed.

Homar

coazon de oro,
I think that you have described the problem perfectly. Research is an investment requiring time, money, and neglect of other, perhaps more pressing issues. All to often, when that research is shared freely, with no financial compensation (as one would receive when producing books, articles, videos, etc.,) expectations are formed. Researchers often get way too close to their work. Possessive even.

Any questioning of their efforts, the presentation and conclusions drawn, is sometimes seen as an attack on the individual doing the work. That may be true in some instances where there is some underlying grudge. We see it quite frequently here with certain less than impressive individuals. It's unfortunate.

But for the most part, constructive criticism is a great thing. A sign of respect some might say. You are invested in your ideas, I am investing my time to consider those ideas. Ideally, that constructive criticism is done with respect and some intelligence. It doesn't alway happen that way due to our universal struggle to communicate.

So, you are correct. When ideas are flawed, they are flawed. Any researcher worth their salt will consider the criticism and adjust where needed. That's not always easy.

Another great post Homar.

 

[DiggerGal]

The difficulty in research is the "overlapping" of stories and the "interpretations" of those stories. When researching we are trying to put together the who, what, where, when and the ever elusive why (this is my experience anyway).
When questioned on the research we often times run into the all powering ego. So I am suggesting the following, as it has probably been done before, however, to create a balance in the effort of resolve, why wouldn't a team be put together? Not a small team, but a team that would challenge the ideas. For example;
2 researchers from different areas, that don't know one another.
2 geologists, that don't know one another
2 Prospectors, that don't know one another, etc.
This way you don't necessarily have one studying the knowledge for 20 years that is hardened to a new direction.
Often time when our opinions are formed, contrasting research is turned a blind eye, and that information is crucial to the development and outcome.
Challenging one another and understanding one another's interpretations of the research can prove successful with egos left outside of the room.
Just a thought....
Tina

 

[Cubfan64]

roadrunner,

This is what I tried to say earlier and was basically told "Bert Love" was the expert and he had the "best" information gotten directly from the uncle, Robert Tumlinson so respectfully I let the show go on.

Love said Tumlinson found the Stone Maps in 1948. The highway was moved in 1949-1950.

So if Love is the "expert", the stones were found in 1948 north of the old highway.

Not the new highway 60 bridge.

There's a lot more to the story that is being ignored but it would just interrupt things.

Matthew

I suppose I'm in the minority, but I welcome respectful challenges, questions and comments. Nothing is ever really learned if new information isn't brought to the table. Sometimes that new information comes from completely new information to everyone, recently disclosed information that's been held onto privately for a time, or even through solid debate and refreshing "outside the box" thinking.

Just because Somehiker felt the best information came from one source doesn't mean he's correct or there shouldn't be alternative ideas that can be backed up with solid rationale - heck, I was there with Somehiker and he knows I'm not convinced that area is where Tumlinson found the maps.

If we all just let the show go on, or didn't add what we know or think about the story, then what's the point of having a forum to talk about this stuff?

I'm not naive, and I know there are other underlying issues but honestly I strongly suspect the majority of people here would welcome information that could potentially answer some of their questions.

 

[RG1976]

The map that I used in the video - what I called the "Tumlinson map" where the "X" marks the spot - this seems to be the most prevalent map people will refer back to.

A few folks here believe in other sites - and eager to know if there are any other maps floating around that detail those other sites.

 

[releventchair]

The difficulty in research is the "overlapping" of stories and the "interpretations" of those stories. When researching we are trying to put together the who, what, where, when and the ever elusive why (this is my experience anyway).
When questioned on the research we often times run into the all powering ego. So I am suggesting the following, as it has probably been done before, however, to create a balance in the effort of resolve, why wouldn't a team be put together? Not a small team, but a team that would challenge the ideas. For example;
2 researchers from different areas, that don't know one another.
2 geologists, that don't know one another
2 Prospectors, that don't know one another, etc.
This way you don't necessarily have one studying the knowledge for 20 years that is hardened to a new direction.
Often time when our opinions are formed, contrasting research is turned a blind eye, and that information is crucial to the development and outcome.
Challenging one another and understanding one another's interpretations of the research can prove successful with egos left outside of the room.
Just a thought....
Tina

What would the mission or goal be?
For some the proving or disproving of the L.D.M. factor.
For others possible wealth/treasure/gold!
Ego will be involved regardless. It exists in all humans but in multiple phases at different times.
For your suggestion the "super ego" comes into play. A desire to benefit the whole of mankind.
Nothing wrong with that and it could tie in well with having a group effort if harnessed and kept at the forefront somehow..
As far as members not knowing each other as suggested, what might matter more is what they know or find and how/if they share it.
The concept of applying open source type information in "treasure hunting", if that's what L.D.M. is considered, would bring more info to the table but what results to a successful conclusion?
That would involve no proprietary rights to anything for any one.
Not saying all members would demand such, but that for people in general, open source arrangements is for benefiting others ,not them selves and such a team would require such total unselfishness. Sorry but in pre established contract to boot, or the odds of someone going rogue are too great.. A tough order if stakes are valuable physically, let alone braggin rights..
Much has been shared. Some stuff stays held quietly.
Only opinion, and not meant to discourage your idea.

 

[Hal Croves]

The difficulty in research is the "overlapping" of stories and the "interpretations" of those stories. When researching we are trying to put together the who, what, where, when and the ever elusive why (this is my experience anyway).
When questioned on the research we often times run into the all powering ego. So I am suggesting the following, as it has probably been done before, however, to create a balance in the effort of resolve, why wouldn't a team be put together? Not a small team, but a team that would challenge the ideas. For example;
2 researchers from different areas, that don't know one another.
2 geologists, that don't know one another
2 Prospectors, that don't know one another, etc.
This way you don't necessarily have one studying the knowledge for 20 years that is hardened to a new direction.
Often time when our opinions are formed, contrasting research is turned a blind eye, and that information is crucial to the development and outcome.
Challenging one another and understanding one another's interpretations of the research can prove successful with egos left outside of the room.
Just a thought....
Tina

Is all honesty DiggerGal, research is a solitary pursuit. The sharing of it, the exchange of it, happens in private conversations for sure but, some times, when the moon is full, some idiot comes along and shares more than others think he/she should. These idiots are my favorite kinda idiot. The Fool. Sometimes you can learn a lot from an idiot.

Here is something that may help you with your idea about "overlapping" stories. Read into it what you want however, for me, it sure is a familiar story. And it's not impossible that more than one person experienced the same scenario.

"J.O. Brown, a prominent citizen of Phoenix died last Thursday. During the flood of last spring his house was suddenly surrounded by water and carried away before Mr. Brown could escape. He came tearing down on the mad waters until the building came in contact with a large cottonwood tree when he succeeded in escaping to the tree. He remained in his perilous position until a boat could be constructed to relieve him. His health has not been good since".

Phenix Republican.
Wednesday, September 9, 1891

BTW, that's how they spelled Phoenix.

Sound familiar?

 

[RG1976]

Tina (DiggerGal)

I'm glad to see you around, you bring intelligent conversation over here - and that makes me smile. I haven't seen you involved in the Dutchman forum before, so thank you!

Just as there are 2 sides to every coin - there are 2 sides to every legend - and 2 sides to every theory. Anyone that disagrees with that is, or has a past history of, trying to lie or deceive people (and unfortunately, there are more than a handful).

I agree with you whole-heartedly - and I'm sure many others do as well.

Here is another quote by another one of my favorites:

'The Truth is more important than the facts" - thats by Frank Lloyd Wright

When we think about those that profess facts - just remember the source and how they have come to believe those facts. The folks that prefer to prospect and research alone are often the same types that go fishing in newly discovered lakes and catch 50lb fish. There is never anyone to give contrast....and without contrast....people can say whatever they'd like.