Video 4 - The Peralta Stone Maps with Frank Augustine

[DiggerGal]

Tina (DiggerGal)

I'm glad to see you around, you bring intelligent conversation over here - and that makes me smile. I haven't seen you involved in the Dutchman forum before, so thank you!

Just as there are 2 sides to every coin - there are 2 sides to every legend - and 2 sides to every theory. Anyone that disagrees with that is, or has a past history of, trying to lie or deceive people (and unfortunately, there are more than a handful).

I agree with you whole-heartedly - and I'm sure many others do as well.

Here is another quote by another one of my favorites:

'The Truth is more important than the facts" - thats by Frank Lloyd Wright

When we think about those that profess facts - just remember the source and how they have come to believe those facts. The folks that prefer to prospect and research alone are often the same types that go fishing in newly discovered lakes and catch 50lb fish. There is never anyone to give contrast....and without contrast....people can say whatever they'd like.

Howdy Ryan,

I have been here before under an old screen name that I had TN change (Mus1k4u). The screen name didn't match the hobby so I asked if it could be changed and they allowed it. I have followed your ventures into the Superstitions along with your activity first arising during the show and "Debunking" the Medicine wheel and the Black Hand...LOL.
I feel that although there have been many people in attempted discovery of the LDM and believing that the Stone Maps are part of that Legend, It makes sense to me to put a "Discovery Group" together....One that starts from the beginning, accrediting due diligence to every piece of information acquired and deducing the information. I think that the Legend can be solved quite simply with the efforts of multiple minds rather than the hidden secrets of just one. Just my opinion....

 

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[markmar]

I believe you have posted the same image before. Have you been to this site? Do you have any shots of the number 35? I'm not able to see what you're taking about.

Also - the chest stone? The map that is a known Tumlinson creation?

RG

I believe , when an important and incognito site of mines changes some owners over the centuries , is logical to have some different maps of the same place . The fact how Tumlinson has carved the Chest stone , reveals how he was in possession of one of these maps . Of course he didn't know what is described in the map and and where the place is ( IMO ) . From my research , I have recognize at least 5 maps ( are available for public in the www ) which show the same region , but of course must to have the skill to recognize them and to put them in line , beginning from the simplest .

Now about the pic which I posted . I have not a better view of the number 35 , but I put it in a yellow circle for better detection .



And , I saw all your videos . Are very nice . Have you been there ?

 

[RG1976]

@markmar I didn't realize that people actually believed the treasure chest stone to be an actual map - learn something new every day and thanks for bringing that up! Are the chimney carvings a map as well? If so, do they also lead to a range / mine / locations in your opinion?

I am looking at your picture on my 4K computer screen - and for the life of me - I cannot see it. Does anyone else here see the 35?

 

[DiggerGal]

What would the mission or goal be?
For some the proving or disproving of the L.D.M. factor.
For others possible wealth/treasure/gold!
Ego will be involved regardless. It exists in all humans but in multiple phases at different times.
For your suggestion the "super ego" comes into play. A desire to benefit the whole of mankind.
Nothing wrong with that and it could tie in well with having a group effort if harnessed and kept at the forefront somehow..
As far as members not knowing each other as suggested, what might matter more is what they know or find and how/if they share it.
The concept of applying open source type information in "treasure hunting", if that's what L.D.M. is considered, would bring more info to the table but what results to a successful conclusion?
That would involve no proprietary rights to anything for any one.
Not saying all members would demand such, but that for people in general, open source arrangements is for benefiting others ,not them selves and such a team would require such total unselfishness. Sorry but in pre established contract to boot, or the odds of someone going rogue are too great.. A tough order if stakes are valuable physically, let alone braggin rights..
Much has been shared. Some stuff stays held quietly.
Only opinion, and not meant to discourage your idea.

Releventchair,

The Mission/Goal would be to Solve either the discovery of the Burried Treasure, or, the fact that the Legend is just that, a story that has been sensationalized over the centuries. I don't believe that this should be a public forum group, I believe that the group should be carefully selected that could work on information privately. I believe that multiple minds are stronger than that of 1. Think about it for a minute. I don't know if you are a treasure seeker, prospector, etc. If you are a treasure seeker and you have followed one specific story, you have already given credit and/or discredit to information that you have received. The information that you received can be conjectured in your mind as either fact or fiction based on your personal beliefs. However, if you and I were doing the research, and reading the same material, we both could either agree that the piece of information is fact or fiction, credited or not, relevant or not, or, does not play into the timeline at that moment, but could be used at a later date. For me it's the power of multiple minds, working on the same outcome. Resolution of the Legend.
Bragging rights?, it's not something that interests me. It's the thrill of the hunt for me (On a much smaller scale in my little world, as I am a Metal Detector looking for old coins and relics). The research that I do is something that stimulates my thoughts. I find it intriguing and fulfilling even though many dead ends are obtained. I bounce ideas off of friends and get some really good insight as they approach the situation differently than I do. It's fuel. Fuel to think differently and fuel to think outside the box.
Proprietary rights? Again, not interested. Where are those rights now? Who is Bragging now? Who has something that has been discovered now? What good is information if its a secret lying with one person who does not speak? I have read of people working to discover the LDM for 50 years without success. WTH? I would like to ask them considering they would be in their mid 60's or older at this point...If they could start all over, what would they change? If they could leave behind a Legacy, would they?
Tina

 

[cactusjumper]

Ryan,

My own impression is that the house carvings are the doodling's of a slightly gifted child. On the other hand, trying to apply them to some kind of treasure map would probably be a great mental exercise.

Here's another......When I first got interested in the Stone Maps, I guessed that the line that was on the first map, and had the bent arrow going up to it, was a general outline of the Main Mountain looking north up Hieroglyphic Canyon.

Once I reached that conclusion, the rest of the map, pretty much, just flowed naturally. Most of the map is natural landmarks and the path that they would take through that portion of the range. There is a wash that goes down the north side of the main range just below Superstition Peak. It matches the dotted trail on the Stone Maps.....exactly.

Many of the marks on the maps are like elevation lines on a topo. If you are familiar with that section of the range, you should be able to follow the map. If you think it leads to....somewhere else, you will probably not be able to see what is before your eyes.

The tip of the dagger is on Parker Pass. It starts a trail that shows two different ways to get to the heart. It also starts a trail that goes over Bull Pass. That would take you to where, it is said, Adolph Ruth's body was found.

Take care,

Joe

 

[RG1976]

oh okay! Perhaps thats why I didn't recognize the screen name.

Yes - a Discovery Group. Perhaps you have caught on to what my plans on. As far as the legend being solved easily - I'm unsure on that one - but I think I'm pretty fortunate to have aligned myself with folks that share that same goal.

 

[DiggerGal]

@markmar I didn't realize that people actually believed the treasure chest stone to be an actual map - learn something new every day and thanks for bringing that up! Are the chimney carvings a map as well? If so, do they also lead to a range / mine / locations in your opinion?

I am looking at your picture on my 4K computer screen - and for the life of me - I cannot see it. Does anyone else here see the 35?

I see a bird like what I would draw as a kid (Winged in flight)....Kind of like an ink blot test to me.....

 

[Hal Croves]

Tina (DiggerGal)

I'm glad to see you around, you bring intelligent conversation over here - and that makes me smile. I haven't seen you involved in the Dutchman forum before, so thank you!

Just as there are 2 sides to every coin - there are 2 sides to every legend - and 2 sides to every theory. Anyone that disagrees with that is, or has a past history of, trying to lie or deceive people (and unfortunately, there are more than a handful).

I agree with you whole-heartedly - and I'm sure many others do as well.

Here is another quote by another one of my favorites:

'The Truth is more important than the facts" - thats by Frank Lloyd Wright

When we think about those that profess facts - just remember the source and how they have come to believe those facts. The folks that prefer to prospect and research alone are often the same types that go fishing in newly discovered lakes and catch 50lb fish. There is never anyone to give contrast....and without contrast....people can say whatever they'd like.

I am not expecting a reply but I can't believe someone as intelligent and creative as you actually wrote this. You just branded everyone who disagrees with your ideas as liars? Ryan, surely you are kidding. I am hoping that it was just a poorly composed sentence.

Coins have two sides, except for the ones that don't. Legends are sometimes multifaceted. And a theory, is one specific idea, defined. Perhaps what you meant to write was that opinions vary?

About your use of the word Legends. I think that in this case, where there is more than enough proof to support the idea that a man named Waltz existed, that he was a successful miner at times in his life, that he was in possession of some gold, and that people in his day were interested in finding something that he abandoned in the Superstitions, the story transcends "legend". The FOLKLORE (which is a great word) part of this story is what Waltz allegedly left behind. An old mine, a cache, a few unfortunates. Whatever one believes. Folklore, legend, myth. Different ideas really. IMO.

On a side note, if you read the biography of Wright, about his treatment of people, especially his wife, you may end up not so impressed with him. I experienced just that. Plus, if you ever visit one of his custom designed homes, you might find them extremely unwelcoming. Even uncomfortable if your not a small guy like me.

 

[Hal Croves]

RG

I believe , when an important and incognito site of mines changes some owners over the centuries , is logical to have some different maps of the same place . The fact how Tumlinson has carved the Chest stone , reveals how he was in possession of one of these maps . Of course he didn't know what is described in the map and and where the place is ( IMO ) . From my research , I have recognize at least 5 maps ( are available for public in the www ) which show the same region , but of course must to have the skill to recognize them and to put them in line , beginning from the simplest .

Now about the pic which I posted . I have not a better view of the number 35 , but I put it in a yellow circle for better detection .

View attachment 1168133

And , I saw all your videos . Are very nice . Have you been there ?

markmar,
Could you post a tracing of the #35? Please? It would help us to see what it is you are describing.
Thank you!

 

[DiggerGal]

I am not expecting a reply but I can't believe someone as intelligent and creative as you actually wrote this. You just branded everyone who disagrees with your ideas as liars? Ryan, surely you are kidding. I am hoping that it was just a poorly composed sentence.

Coins have two sides, except for the ones that don't. Legends are sometimes multifaceted. And a theory, is one specific idea, defined. Perhaps what you meant to write was that opinions vary?

About your use of the word Legends. I think that in this case, where there is more than enough proof to support the idea that a man named Waltz existed, that he was a successful miner at times in his life, that he was in possession of some gold, and that people in his day were interested in finding something that he abandoned in the Superstitions, the story transcends "legend". The FOLKLORE (which is a great word) part of this story is what Waltz allegedly left behind. An old mine, a cache, a few unfortunates. Whatever one believes. Folklore, legend, myth. Different ideas really. IMO.

On a side note, if you read the biography of Wright, about his treatment of people, especially his wife, you may end up not be so impressed with him. I experienced just that. Plus, if you ever visit one of his custom designed homes, you might find them extremely unwelcoming. Even uncomfortable if your not a small guy like me.

Hal~

I didn't read Ryan's post as "Branding everyone who disagrees with his Ideas as liars". This is interpretation, and it is yours and you are entitled to that. Often times, when reading your posts, I have the opinion that you are trying to inject something different than what was stated because you would have stated it differently than the OP presented it. People speak and write their analogies differently. They use different writing styles, different viewpoints, and different conclusions. It's what makes us all different, Its what makes us challenge ourselves to think outside the box (or me at least), and it's the beauty of interpretation.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal~

I didn't read Ryan's post as "Branding everyone who disagrees with his Ideas as liars". This is interpretation, and it is yours and you are entitled to that. Often times, when reading your posts, I have the opinion that you are trying to inject something different than what was stated because you would have stated it differently than the OP presented it. People speak and write their analogies differently. They use different writing styles, different viewpoints, and different conclusions. It's what makes us all different, Its what makes us challenge ourselves to think outside the box (or me at least), and it's the beauty of interpretation.

Fair enough. But you left off the question mark attached to my quote. Interpretation, an example?

"Just as there are 2 sides to every coin - there are 2 sides to every legend - and 2 sides to every theory. Anyone that disagrees with that is, or has a past history of, trying to lie or deceive people (and unfortunately, there are more than a handful). "

For clarity sake I have highlight that part of the post that I take issue with. I disagree with the statement. I am many things to many people but I don't believe that I have ever been accused of being a liar.

Insensitively honest? Guilty.

Compare everything in red to the last sentence in your post. Do they honestly complement each other?
: ( I do not feel that they do.

 

[DiggerGal]

Fair enough. But you left off the question mark attached to my quote. Interpretation, an example?

"Just as there are 2 sides to every coin - there are 2 sides to every legend - and 2 sides to every theory. Anyone that disagrees with that is, or has a past history of, trying to lie or deceive people (and unfortunately, there are more than a handful). "

For clarity sake I have highlight that part of the post that I take issue with. I disagree with the statement. I am many things to many people but I don't believe that I have ever been accused of being a liar.

Insensitively honest? Guilty.

Compare everything in red to the last sentence in your post. Do they honestly complement each other?
: ( I do not feel that they do.

Hal~

I am of the opinion that you are bifurcating the post.
They are two different statements. Ryan is entitled to his opinion and has placed his view on it as in [every story has two sides]. His opinion is that those who do not have that same opinion, have, in his experience, been not exemplary of the truth.
I'm not here to argue, only to be challenged intellectually.
Thanks!

 

[markmar]

markmar,
Could you post a tracing of the #35? Please? It would help us to see what it is you are describing.
Thank you!

Look at the bigger pic from 4-5 feet away to could recognize .

 

[RG1976]

Hal~

I am of the opinion that you are bifurcating the post.
They are two different statements. Ryan is entitled to his opinion and has placed his view on it as in [every story has two sides]. His opinion is that those who do not have that same opinion, have, in his experience, been not exemplary of the truth.
I'm not here to argue, only to be challenged intellectually.
Thanks!

Being challenged intellectually - yes please!

Conversations with some result in futility - and I've chosen to keep those types of folks on ignore.

Let's bring this thread back on topic. The stone maps and Herman petrash.

Do you have any ideas on the DB40 engraving, Tina?

 

[Las Vegas Bob]

I am looking at your picture on my 4K computer screen - and for the life of me - I cannot see it. Does anyone else here see the 35?

Now with it outlined I can see it

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal~

I am of the opinion that you are bifurcating the post.
They are two different statements. Ryan is entitled to his opinion and has placed his view on it as in [every story has two sides]. His opinion is that those who do not have that same opinion, have, in his experience, been not exemplary of the truth.
I'm not here to argue, only to be challenged intellectually.
Thanks!

I had to look up bifurcating.
I am going to guess that in this instance you mean splitting hairs?

"Anyone that disagrees with that is, or has a past history of, trying to lie or deceive people (and unfortunately, there are more than a handful)."

Its a fairly definitive statement as far as I am concerned. It also contradicts the essence of your post in my opinion which, I understood to mean there is great value in a diversity of opinions.

That I agree with completely.

In the world of treasure hunting, branding someone a liar can have devastating and lasting effects. It's a slippery slope.

You and I are essentially making the same argument however we disagree on the translation of the above quote. And that is more than fair.

And we accomplished that without getting banned!

 

[Hal Croves]

Being challenged intellectually - yes please!

Conversations with some result in futility - and I've chosen to keep those types of folks on ignore.

Let's bring this thread back on topic. The stone maps and Herman petrash.

Do you have any ideas on the DB40 engraving, Tina?

While I fail to see the relevance of that graphic to your post, I will say that it is a decent and thought provoking image. My only complaint would be the missing middle color (brown?) that shows both a man and a woman juggling both success and failure. Then it would be an excellent image.

 

[releventchair]

Releventchair,

The Mission/Goal would be to Solve either the discovery of the Burried Treasure, or, the fact that the Legend is just that, a story that has been sensationalized over the centuries. I don't believe that this should be a public forum group, I believe that the group should be carefully selected that could work on information privately. I believe that multiple minds are stronger than that of 1. Think about it for a minute. I don't know if you are a treasure seeker, prospector, etc. If you are a treasure seeker and you have followed one specific story, you have already given credit and/or discredit to information that you have received. The information that you received can be conjectured in your mind as either fact or fiction based on your personal beliefs. However, if you and I were doing the research, and reading the same material, we both could either agree that the piece of information is fact or fiction, credited or not, relevant or not, or, does not play into the timeline at that moment, but could be used at a later date. For me it's the power of multiple minds, working on the same outcome. Resolution of the Legend.
Bragging rights?, it's not something that interests me. It's the thrill of the hunt for me (On a much smaller scale in my little world, as I am a Metal Detector looking for old coins and relics). The research that I do is something that stimulates my thoughts. I find it intriguing and fulfilling even though many dead ends are obtained. I bounce ideas off of friends and get some really good insight as they approach the situation differently than I do. It's fuel. Fuel to think differently and fuel to think outside the box.
Proprietary rights? Again, not interested. Where are those rights now? Who is Bragging now? Who has something that has been discovered now? What good is information if its a secret lying with one person who does not speak? I have read of people working to discover the LDM for 50 years without success. WTH? I would like to ask them considering they would be in their mid 60's or older at this point...If they could start all over, what would they change? If they could leave behind a Legacy, would they?
Tina

All valid questions.
Claims have been made, proof as usual awaited.. some have been not acceptable to those who do not concur and what would it take, really; to prove if not acceptance by all?
Books have been written with some rights retained.
Secrets? I wouldn't know any.
Stuff turns up and needs clarification. Most has been debated in the past.
Things like someone claiming to be Hershell B. Weiser stating he would need certain type pics from multiple views from Weavers needle to use information Jacob sent his sister drives me into tail chasing.
I don't doubt your idea of the right group working together towards resolve as do able. You should pursue it . Good researchers are extremely valuable.
An outline of common mission and expectations with the right personalities should go far but human nature needs a balance in a group.
Committees can succeed or languish. The right one shows it's/their success. Others it's/their effect.
Only the individual hunter can answer what they would have changed. Some might say they would rather have found indisputable proof of the Lost Dutchman.
In the form of something tangible or provable provenance. Solitary or otherwise; again a question for each.
Collaboration is not excluded from the search for the L.D.M.. Conclusion to the satisfaction of all remains awaited, however arrived at.

 

[Hal Croves]

Look at the bigger pic from 4-5 feet away to could recognize .

View attachment 1168152

markmark,
Is that how the number thirty five would have been written in 1535?

 

[markmar]

markmark,
Is that how the number thirty five would have been written in 1535?

Hal

Maybe . I have asked in the first post with this pic : " Is a part of 1535 ? Or , is a coincidence, or Nature's " games " ? " .
I believe is a part of 1535 , and I did the other assumptions just to give " space " to anyone to participate .