Undiscovered treasure galleons

[Colombiapictures]

Huguette and Pierre Chaunu, SEVILLE ET L’ATLANTIQUE, vol. IV, p. 200
The San Martin and the San Gregorio returned to Seville in October 1606.
Two lines, but what a story.
The story of 4 ill fated galleons.
SAN ROQUE, CAPITANA
SANTO DOMINGO, ALMIRANTA
SAN AMBROSIO
NUESTRA SENORA DE BEGONA
Four of the richest galleons, shipwrecked on the first of November 1605.
Never found.
Never salvaged.
Where are they?
Below is a chart of about 100 years later. The route of the galleons is clearly marked.
Now, where on this chart did the disaster happen?

 

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[Panfilo]

First thing I suggest you do, new member, is buy a copy of Claudio Bonifacio’s fascinating new book, soon to be released in English but you can now get it in Spanish and in Italian, right Vox Veritas?
GALEONES CON TESOROS
Dónde están hundidos. Qué llevaban.
Muñoz Moya editores
ISBN: 978-84-8010-159-2
304 págs. 17 x 24 cm. Rústica. Ilustrado
Precio libro : 25 euros (impuestos incluidos) más gastos de envío

Secondly I would remit you to these TN forum page though there are several, nothing new here:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=100959.0
and also:
http://www.treasurenet.com/f/index.php?topic=34815.0 though there are other threads you might want to consult.
Panfilo
There is also this other thread that is more recent:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,21537.0.html

 

[Colombiapictures]

Panfilo,
thank you for the interesting links. I have visited the area some years ago, so I have good information about the layout.
Things have changed since the great treasure hunter days. The times of grab and run are over.
Shipwrecks, their treasures and stories have much greater value than just the gold and silver they carried.
Today, with the Internet and incredibly beautiful underwater filming, there are few unexplored parts of the oceans left. But the coral reefs of Seranilla must be of the most beautiful of the whole world.
My idea is to make a documentary movie of the treasure galleons, Cartagena, where they started, the route and it's dangers and then Habana, where they prepared for the Atlantic crossing.

To find the 1605 galleons would be nice. Several museums in Cartagena could probably filled with the treasure and artifacts. A splendid boost for tourism.

 

[Panfilo]

CP:
That is a very idealistic and romantic view of things CP, far from the sad reality that now reigns over those wrecks. The first thing that you must realize is that Colombia was one of the six nations that prepared the draft of the UNESCO Convention that pretends to “protect” those wrecks and all of the six or seven Ministers of Culture that have passed thorough that office have been 100% pro-UNESCO: that means that they are in favor of “in situ preservation”, that is leaving those wrecks where they now are, subject to the destruction by the hurricanes that pass along that route with some regularity, not to mention the fishermen who are constantly “finding” things and last but not least, the pirates and divers that work those wrecks without any license or concern for the history or the cultural value that is laying alongside of those coins. They work with no arqueological supervision or regard. As non of the objects or artifacts can be commercialized or sold, the central government would have to finance the whole operation from its own funds, very unlikely if you consider the fact that the public health system is on the verge of collapse…education plans are way under budgeted….unemployment is at an all time high…so who is going to finance an expedition lo look for the San Roque if you can’t sell one coin?

Twice in the past decade there have been attempts at regulating in Congress the exploration and recovery of colonial wrecks (Colombia has 1,100 wrecks in its waters) and twice the Ministry of Culture has shot down any initiative that diverges from the official pro-UNESCO position. In the end they have obtained what they want, the in situ preservation of those wrecks, allowing inadvertedly the pirates to plunder them without any competition or supervision. I honestly believe that when the Colombian government eventually reaches the wreck of the San Jose or the San Roque, they will find no treasure there but a note left behind thanking the kind people that drafted the UNESCO Convention.
Panfilo

 

[itmaiden]

So. Become a Pirate. They are pirates under the guise of law.

itmaiden

CP:
That is a very idealistic and romantic view of things CP, far from the sad reality that now reigns over those wrecks. The first thing that you must realize is that Colombia was one of the six nations that prepared the draft of the UNESCO Convention that pretends to “protect” those wrecks and all of the six or seven Ministers of Culture that have passed thorough that office have been 100% pro-UNESCO: that means that they are in favor of “in situ preservation”, that is leaving those wrecks where they now are, subject to the destruction by the hurricanes that pass along that route with some regularity, not to mention the fishermen who are constantly “finding” things and last but not least, the pirates and divers that work those wrecks without any license or concern for the history or the cultural value that is laying alongside of those coins. They work with no arqueological supervision or regard. As non of the objects or artifacts can be commercialized or sold, the central government would have to finance the whole operation from its own funds, very unlikely if you consider the fact that the public health system is on the verge of collapse…education plans are way under budgeted….unemployment is at an all time high…so who is going to finance an expedition lo look for the San Roque if you can’t sell one coin?

Twice in the past decade there have been attempts at regulating in Congress the exploration and recovery of colonial wrecks (Colombia has 1,100 wrecks in its waters) and twice the Ministry of Culture has shot down any initiative that diverges from the official pro-UNESCO position. In the end they have obtained what they want, the in situ preservation of those wrecks, allowing inadvertedly the pirates to plunder them without any competition or supervision. I honestly believe that when the Colombian government eventually reaches the wreck of the San Jose or the San Roque, they will find no treasure there but a note left behind thanking the kind people that drafted the UNESCO Convention.
Panfilo

 

[Colombiapictures]

Panfilo,

not idealistic and romantic, REALISTIC.
The UNESCO convention will not go away. We have to live with it. Work with it.
Colombia is spending a great amount of money in trying to attract tourism. The 1,100 shipwrecks could do a great deal in helping to develop tourism resources in Colombia.
The UNESCO convention does not prohibit a country from making an archaeological excavation of a shipwreck and making an exhibit in a museum with the finds.
The UNESCO convention does not prohibit filming the excavation live over the internet, to be viewed by millions of people world wide.
But this certainly could be used to develop tourism for Colombia.

The UNESCO convention does not prohibit the participation of volunteers in the archaeological excavation, like for example the excavation of the "MARY ROSE", where thousands of volunteer divers participated.

The UNESCO convention does not prohibit field schools in marine archaeology, nor does it prohibit develop tourism around the historic and cultural resources of a country.

 

[Panfilo]

CP:
I will tell you what REALISTIC is: the exploration and technical recovery with the highest archeological standards of an important wreck like the San Jose can cost something in the order of twenty million dollars or so and the conservation and preservation will add another similar amount. Those are the real numbers. If you want to recover that kind of investment with the “film rights” for a documentary, as one of the previous Ministers of Culture proposed in a senate hearing we were invited to, well, you might have 1% of the costs there but the other 99% is still missing. Discovery or National Geographic might pay you $50,000, no more. You say, from a museum or an exhibit, OK, but it’s very hard or nearly impossible to get investors to finance such an uncertain project. The senate? Unlikely.

I see you are a supporter of the UNESCO Convention and there is clearly nothing wrong with that except that it can not be implemented in a country like Colombia for several reasons (unconstitutionality mainly), creating a situation that has put its intellectual supporters in a dilemma: don’t give up, never give in, death first, and don’t let any other viable formula prosper thereby achieving the much revered “in situ preservation”. Meanwhile many, many historically important wrecks are disappearing.

I’m not going to get into a UNESCO discussion with you, your view is respectable. History, I think, will be the judge as to who was right here….in a few decades when technology has advanced and there are no more wrecks left to recover…somebody will realize that this Convention singlehandedly caused the destruction of most of the wrecks on the ocean floor.
Panfilo

 

[Trond]

Shipwrecks, their treasures and stories have much greater value than just the gold and silver they carried.

I agree with you.

 

[aquanut]

Panfillo.
I agree with you! The ocean will soon reclaim anything left "IN SITU". What are these people thinking
Aquanut

 

[Alexandre]

Panfilo,

not idealistic and romantic, REALISTIC.
The UNESCO convention will not go away. We have to live with it. Work with it.
Colombia is spending a great amount of money in trying to attract tourism. The 1,100 shipwrecks could do a great deal in helping to develop tourism resources in Colombia.
The UNESCO convention does not prohibit a country from making an archaeological excavation of a shipwreck and making an exhibit in a museum with the finds.
The UNESCO convention does not prohibit filming the excavation live over the internet, to be viewed by millions of people world wide.
But this certainly could be used to develop tourism for Colombia.

The UNESCO convention does not prohibit the participation of volunteers in the archaeological excavation, like for example the excavation of the "MARY ROSE", where thousands of volunteer divers participated.

The UNESCO convention does not prohibit field schools in marine archaeology, nor does it prohibit develop tourism around the historic and cultural resources of a country.

CP has seen the writing on the wall.

 

[Colombiapictures]

CP:
I will tell you what REALISTIC is: the exploration and technical recovery with the highest archeological standards of an important wreck like the San Jose can cost something in the order of twenty million dollars or so and the conservation and preservation will add another similar amount. Those are the real numbers. If you want to recover that kind of investment with the “film rights” for a documentary, as one of the previous Ministers of Culture proposed in a senate hearing we were invited to, well, you might have 1% of the costs there but the other 99% is still missing. Discovery or National Geographic might pay you $50,000, no more. You say, from a museum or an exhibit, OK, but it’s very hard or nearly impossible to get investors to finance such an uncertain project. The senate? Unlikely.

I see you are a supporter of the UNESCO Convention and there is clearly nothing wrong with that except that it can not be implemented in a country like Colombia for several reasons (unconstitutionality mainly), creating a situation that has put its intellectual supporters in a dilemma: don’t give up, never give in, death first, and don’t let any other viable formula prosper thereby achieving the much revered “in situ preservation”. Meanwhile many, many historically important wrecks are disappearing.

I’m not going to get into a UNESCO discussion with you, your view is respectable. History, I think, will be the judge as to who was right here….in a few decades when technology has advanced and there are no more wrecks left to recover…somebody will realize that this Convention singlehandedly caused the destruction of most of the wrecks on the ocean floor.
Panfilo

No, the UNESCO convention is not the subject of this discussion and I am not a supporter of it. You could call me "Darwinian". I believe in evolution. I know I have been a monkey before, but I have evolved into a thinking being. I can read the writing on the wall, as Alexander says.
You are bringing up some very good points above.
How to finance the enterprise.
If you look at the business world, at entrepreneurship, you will see that time and time again over the time of history, as far back as you go, there were always the impossible things. But somebody found a way. Somebody was the pioneer that showed that there was a way to do the impossible.
Since we are on a shipwreck forum, I will use a shipping example.
For many hundreds or even thousands of years there was trade between the far east and Europe. But the trade route was very long and very dangerous, so by the time the trade goods arrived in Europe, they were very expensive. But there seemed no other way. for hundreds of years. Until....
Until some king, I think he was Portuguese, (was it the Infante? Alexander could write books about that) sent his people out to find a navigation route, so that the goods could travel by ship instead of camel back. It was not easy, but once it worked, it made the small country of Portugal into an Empire.
Other pioneers looked for other routes. Cristobal Columbus was one of them.
What I mean to say, every great business went through a time where it seemed impossible to finance it..... Until somebody found a way.
Film rights and documentary. Right, only a drop on a hot stone.
Hmmm, I just watched a tourism publicity on CNN. About Colombia. I wonder how much they pay per second of publicity aired?

Museums. Many look at it like this boring place where the teacher took them in 6th grade. But what about the "VASA" museum. Check out the numbers. The "VASA" museum has made a few hundred % profit. But these few hundred % are only a drop on a hot stone, when compared with how much money this museum has made for all the hotels, restaurants, Airlines and all the other businesses connected in some way with tourism, have made because of the tourists that came to look at the museum.

Have you seen Bob Ballard's business? He seems to be doing well. His recipe works.

look at Disney Land in Orlando Florida. Theme Parks. How much money do they bring to the State of Florida? How much money flows through Orlando because of the Theme Parks? Big Business eh?

Ok, then small business. Key West. Mel Fisher and his Treasure Exhibit. How much money has it brought to Key West over the past 25 years?
Investors?
There is an infallible recipe to get investment. INFALLIBLE. There is not one investor that can resist.

Now, why do I talk about all this on this forum?

The funny thing is that Florida was the cradle of shipwreck treasure hunting. Over the past 50 years a large amount of experience has been accumulated. A lot of experience that could be applied.
For the recipients of this experience the time has come to chose between extinction like the dinosaurs or adapting to a new environment.
The world of the treasure galleons has changed, it will never be the same anymore.
Who wants to adapt?

 

[Alexandre]

I like you, CP.

That's exactly the avenue I am pursuing here in Portugal - you will read about it in all major newspapers in, let's say, five years.

 

[Colombiapictures]

I like you, CP.

That's exactly the avenue I am pursuing here in Portugal - you will read about it in all major newspapers in, let's say, five years.

A "Darwinian truth": In a changing environment the most adaptive being will profit from the changes and flourish.

You are so lucky to be young, at the right place at the right time and on the right path.

 

[treasurediver]

CP,

I like your ideas, but why do you want to build your project around some impossible to find treasure fleet.

Why don't you build your project on the pirate theme. The fictional movies "Pirates of the Caribbean" have made more money that any shipwreck ever carried. I would say that real pirate stories with real pirate shipwrecks and real pirate artifacts should do real well.
What wouldn't people pay to look at a sword that used to belong to Henry Morgan, recovered from the shipwreck of the "Oxford"?
Which diver wouldn't pay to work as a volunteer on the excavation of Jean Hamlin's "La Trompeuse?

As the pirate stories go, they roamed the seas and left quite a few shipwrecks in their wake. Henry Morgan alone accounts for 5 or 6.
Follow the wake and footsteps of the pirates like Captain Sharp, across the Isthmus of Panama and then down the coast of South America on the "Santissima Trinidad" that he captured. Is it him that captured the "Caca Fuego" and sank her with all the silver on board? Or was that Drake?
Anyway, the "Trinity" as the pirates called her, sailed around the Horn and back up to the Caribbean. Famous people on board. Basil Ringrose of the stolen charts, William Dampier who became legit and sailed around the world as an explorer and left a legacy of information about trade winds and prevailing ocean currents.
The real pirates of the Caribbean left a lot of stories behind that are waiting to be uncovered under the waves or buried in caves on islands scattered throughout the Caribbean.

No treasure Galleon fleet can compete with the romance of the pirates of the Caribbean.
Treasurediver

 

[Panfilo]

Curious thread CP: you start off by asking about the Luis Fernandez de Cordoba 1605 fleet, then the subject changes into the UNESCO Convention of which you are clearly supporting (read your post), you state you’re not for the Convention, and now you’re talking about alternative pro-UNESCO methods of financing shipwreck recovery projects?

You are confusing things CP. There are basically two schools of thought today in the modern shipwreck world, (clearly discounting the traditional “treasure hunter” of the early 1960’s, who was an intrepid explorer and pioneer who dove with his metal detector and collected gold and silver coins with little or no regard for the cultural and historical ramifications of his enterprise. Not his fault, this was not the correct time for this way of thinking. ) : 1) the pro-UNESCO academics and archaeologists who believe that they and they alone can explore historic wrecks and that it is their universe to be worked either by them (a couple of hundred of them) or be left alone as they can not possibly handle the three million wrecks that lie in the ocean floors. 2) the archaeologists and private parties that believe that there is room for a scientific and technically correct excavation of a historic wreck, recovering for that nation or country 100% of its underwater patrimony and yet allow the sale of those artifacts that posses little or no cultural value as are raw uncut emeralds, gold and silver bars, repetitive objects of minimal or no cultural value, coins, etc. Not a perfect formula, not as romantic and idealistic as the pro-UNESCO supporters’ formula but it allows for these projects to be self financed and in some cases it will permit the poorer countries to receive some funds to work on other projects that as of now have no funding or financing.

The position that I find hard to comprehend is why the “purist” archaeologists believe that wrecks are their own little dominion. It is as if a physician said that they would only operate themselves, not the public or if the pharmacists only sold medication amongst themselves or police only protected themselves….strange attitude. You must choose a side CP, you can’t try and be on both at the same time. Alexandre and some of his colleagues in this forum have bravely held up the UNESCO flag and they firmly believe that that is the way to go, a responsible consistent position though I wholeheartedly disagree with them I respect them. That is why these forums are interesting, they have diverse positions on these fundamental subjects.

To summarize CP, if you believe in the UNESCO Convention you can not commercialize any artifact in a wreck, if you don’t agree and want to be permitted to pursue a shipwreck project in some still permitted places, you must work side by side with a good archaeologist and respect the integrity of the historical and cultural heritage that is contained in a wreck. As somebody stated in this thread, there are far more valuable things to be found in a wreck than gold and silver, the stories of the people on-board and what their objects tell us about their lives. The only difference being that we believe our formula makes these projects more feasible, self financing versus state financing.
Panfilo

 

[Panfilo]

CP:
Regarding the Cordoba fleet, your initial question, let me clarify some of your affirmations: the wreck did not occur on All Saints Day, November 1st, that is when they left Cartagena, they wrecked on the evening of Sunday November 6th/ early November 7th. Curiously Potter erroneously places this event in January 1605, not like him to make this mistake. 2) For sure one was found, some of us believe maybe two and according to Claudio perhaps a third was found. 3) There was salvage on the ones found. 4) “Where on this chart did the disaster happen?” We all know, it happened in Serranilla…of course CP except for one authority. I forget which one of the renowned “experts”, perhaps Fernandez Duro places this event near the Venezuelan coast…I believe he might have come across some mind altering weed when he wrote this.

Claudio also states that there was a survivor among the crew of the San Roque, I don’t believe this though I’m confident Claudio found such an original authentic document. I believe there were liars in 1605 that made false statements. Then there is the Isla Misteriosa story or legend you might want to read in his fascinating book. I spent close to ten years researching this story and concluded that it was all made up by a Flemish prisoner who wanted out from a Spanish jail, maybe under similar circumstances we all would make up such an imaginary story.
Panfilo

 

[Alexandre]

Curiously Potter erroneously places this event in January 1605, not like him to make this mistake.

Potter starts his chapter on the wrecks of the Azores, stating that the archipelago has 10 islands.

In fact, there are only nine of them. So much for Potter's credibility.

 

[Colombiapictures]

Panfilo, thank you for responding.

You really have put me on the spot. Now you make me admit that I never even studied the full UNESCO convention. True, I just glanced over it. But it is there and it will not go away. I don't see any alternative, either work within its boundaries or not work at all.

Of course, there is a lot open to interpretation like every law. But it is not even a law. Just a recommendation. The rules are guidelines.
Sovereign nations can interpret the rules the way that suits their purpose. Has it not always been like that?

I agree with you that there are "purists" that try to hide their incompetence behind a barricade of rules that they twist to their own purpose.
This has always been like that and will be like that forever.

My eyeopener was Bob Ballard. He was kind enough to give me a personally guided tour of his Theme park and to sit down with me for 2 hours for a sincere chat. We all know that Bob Ballard strictly adheres to the UNESCO convention.
I am most grateful to him for explaining to me how things work and how he can be so very successful.

I have to stop now, but will come back later to answer your posts.

CP

 

[Colombiapictures]

Curiously Potter erroneously places this event in January 1605, not like him to make this mistake.

Potter starts his chapter on the wrecks of the Azores, stating that the archipelago has 10 islands.

In fact, there are only nine of them. So much for Potter's credibility.

Potter, Marx etc. were not writing scientific papers, just fascinating books, bringing history closer to the people.
History has always been twisted to suite politics so in fact it is not much more than a legend anyway.
It is a lot of fun to find archaeological proof of the many historic "facts" that were a bit different as told in the history books.

CP

 

[Colombiapictures]

CP:
Regarding the Cordoba fleet, your initial question, let me clarify some of your affirmations: the wreck did not occur on All Saints Day, November 1st, that is when they left Cartagena, they wrecked on the evening of Sunday November 6th/ early November 7th. Curiously Potter erroneously places this event in January 1605, not like him to make this mistake. 2) For sure one was found, some of us believe maybe two and according to Claudio perhaps a third was found. 3) There was salvage on the ones found. 4) “Where on this chart did the disaster happen?” We all know, it happened in Serranilla…of course CP except for one authority. I forget which one of the renowned “experts”, perhaps Fernandez Duro places this event near the Venezuelan coast…I believe he might have come across some mind altering weed when he wrote this.

Claudio also states that there was a survivor among the crew of the San Roque, I don’t believe this though I’m confident Claudio found such an original authentic document. I believe there were liars in 1605 that made false statements. Then there is the Isla Misteriosa story or legend you might want to read in his fascinating book. I spent close to ten years researching this story and concluded that it was all made up by a Flemish prisoner who wanted out from a Spanish jail, maybe under similar circumstances we all would make up such an imaginary story.
Panfilo

About the Cordoba fleet.
Thanks for correcting the date.
As to where the shipwrecks are, please give me some time to check the available information. This is the purpose of this thread.
Old documents are difficult to read, but even much more difficult to interpret. It is not only a matter of language, but also a matter of deeper understanding many factors that influenced the way the story was written down.
I doubt if one single person can have all the knowledge to successfully interpret a story like the sinking of the Cordoba Fleet.
For example:
It needs profound knowledge of the prevailing wind and weather conditions in the region, at the time of the year, that is the beginning of November. And was this a usual weather pattern year? Was this an exceptional storm? Do we have any information about unusual current or wind patterns?
Profound knowledge of the navigation the way it was done in those times.
Knowledge of sailing in the times.
Understanding of conditions on board a ship, in the darkness, in a howling storm, with the only light being the flashes of lightning.
Understanding the psychological condition of the surviving eyewitnesses, during the time they are describing and during the time they are responding to the inquirer.
The list can go on and on. Each one of these factors may produce information that can be wrongly interpreted at the time of the depositions as well as in modern times.
So forgive me if I want to go over the publicly known information with a team of experts in the different fields before deciding on the priority search area.

I have noticed that there are quite a few people on this forum who have dedicated time and accumulated experience in interpreting shipwreck information. Why don't we listen to all of them. Let's see what the opinion of each one is and how he came to his conclusions.

We all might learn something by listening to all the different opinions, not just one or to.

CP