Undiscovered treasure galleons

There are, sadly, many “cannon men” all over the Caribbean, which remove the cannons and bells from wreck sites that they or their fishing friends come across, eliminating the possibility to positively identify the wreck. This will make future scientific studies of some of these wrecks almost impossible and the historical and cultural value carried aboard these ships eliminated. This is one of the controversial reasons that make the UNESCO Convention and its “in situ” preservation concept so detrimental for the proper conservation of shipwrecks in the Caribbean, where so many of the wrecks lie in shallow waters. When a nation does not properly regulate its shipwreck legislature and design its mechanisms in order to encourage these fortuitous finds to be declared and properly excavated by archaeologists, they will be looted and pillages and will disappear forever. Only history will be the judge, years from now, when thousands of valuable historic wrecks have been destroyed and pillaged all over the world, of the disastrous concepts conceived and enacted in the UNESCO Convention, not the least of which is the “in situ” conservation.
Panfilo
 

Amazon Forum Fav đź‘Ť

DR.Ă–TEK Metal Detector, Waterproof Gold Detector, Pinpoint & Terrain Modes, Professional Metal Detector - Grab it through Amazon!
Panfilo:
In part, you wrote: "....they will be looted and pillages and will disappear forever. Only history will be the judge, years from now, when thousands of valuable historic wrecks have been destroyed and pillaged all over the world, of the disastrous concepts conceived and enacted in the UNESCO Convention, not the least of which is the “in situ” conservation."

This appears to be written in the future tense when, in fact, it has been going on for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

History has already judged human nature: Man will continue to pillage wrecks NWS the UNESCO Convention. Controlled 'in situ' conservation is a fantasy (and a joke) to those who have access and desire to pillage shallow wrecks where they, otherwise, are excluded from the compensation package.
Don....
 

Wrecks have been pillaged since Phoenician times and before, sure, but things are changing very rapidly. Technology has advanced and made scuba gear and metal detectors accessible to anyone in third world countries, not to mention magnetometers, one atmosphere suits, AUV’s and ROV’s. My comments are written in future tense Don because the Convention entered into force just last year and so far 31 countries have ratified it, Italy and Gabon being the last two this year. As the Convention has formulated a “State policy” of in situ preservation, you will see an exponential rise in the destruction and pillaging of historic wrecks in these countries that, compared with what we have seen in the past, the proportions will be huge.
Panfilo
 

Actually Don I mainly preach to the unbelievers, they don’t much like me here at the Ministry of Culture as we’ve managed to detain their efforts to adhere and later to ratify the Convention as Colombia was one of the six countries that initially drafted this nefarious and dreadful piece of legislation. I’ve had the Minister on record state they will not seek ratification, not an easy battle, believe me. With a bit of effort and not much money, one can have it overturned in countries that have adhered and ratified it such as Ecuador and perhaps Panama.
Panfilo
 

How will future generations will learn about history if these wrecks are left in situ. In situ under the sand with all the history, where no one can see them, learn or bring a profit to the country. There is always a right way to do things. I know that many countries don’t have the funds to do this, then why not be smart about it. Do private contracts with people who are willing to look for these wrecks let the salvors pay for everything and have the slavors play by the rules of the country to ensure proper excavation. The salvor most have aboard on each excavation an archeologist approved by the country and a person from the Marina de Guerra to protect the treasure, all paid by the salvor. Every site will be treated as an archeology site to ensure proper conservation of the artifacts and even have the salvor pay for the conservation of the artifacts. Every country could have a beautiful museum to show all the cultural patrimony that will teach present and future generations, bring more tourist, create employments and bring profit from the entrance fee, sales of coins, videos, books and souvenirs. I know that once you have recovered enough cannons and anchors it becomes a problem to keep and conserve these. I has happen in every country. I have visit many Spanish forts and all of them are missing cannons. Start by filling all the spots in the forts where a cannon just to be. Then with the rest create under water parks where people can go snorkeling and see the cannons, anchors and ballast pile. As a requirement have these salvors pay for transporting these items to the desired location. You have no idea how much people will enjoy diving and snorkeling in these under water parks. I have a 6 year old grandson. To him Grandpais his hero, think about it what kid doesn’t love pirate tales and stories of sunken treasure. He has seen me do this since the day he was born. As you can imagine he has all the pirate movies, books, the entire collection of Pirates of the Caribbean, toys, shirts, hats, sneakers, blanquettes, you name it. I teach him how to swim when he was 2 years old, he was not even 3 when he was able to swim to the bottom of the pool (8ft) and pick up quarters. By the age of 5 I had already teach him how to snorkel in the ocean. He will become 7 this month and that kid knows more about wrecks than many adults. About 3 weeks ago he wanted to go to the beach to snorkel so we looked for a nice spot that had a reef. We ended up in Key Largo on a State Park. With out knowing that this park had an underwater park with cannons from the 1715 wrecks and one anchor from the 1733 fleet. I saw the sign and didn’t tell him anything. He did see a cannon that was in the entrance to the beach and the first thing he did was to go stand next to the cannon and ask me to take a picture. I told him I had a surprise for him if he dare to swim out to the reef with me. Well when Grandpa is around he is not afraid of anything so he agreed to swim out to the reef. It was perfect because the reef was not that far out and all the cannons were in about 6 ft of water. The first thing we saw was the anchor, his eyes wanted to poop out of his mask. He tuck his head out of the water and screamed Grandpa that’s an anchor from a galleon look at the size of that thing!!! The next thing we saw were a bunch of cannons that kid was amazed once again he tuck his head out of the water and said Grandpa this is the coolest trip ever!!!! That day he made me swim out to the reef 5 times…LOL. That day the park was full and there were many people and kids out in the reef, it made me very happy to see how much these people were enjoying to see these cannons.

How will people learn about our history if we don’t exhibit it. There is not enough time in school to teach all there is to learn about local history. I was a very bad student and never like history. Now days it has happened many times that I have been talking to someone about the history of their country and they tell me; Man you know more about the history of my country than I do.

Now I understand that we need to know first where we came from to know where we are going. Just last weekend I was watching an excellent show in the History channel called “The history about us” it was about the first colonies of the US, how we beat the red coats fighting for our freedom, the bill of rights, the first 13 States and how we became the United states of America. Sure I already knew the story but not with so much details. Man I have never been so proud to be an American. This is a TV show that everyone that lives in this country should watch….

As always just my humble opinion....
 

Well said Chagy! I can't see were the government or academia could argue with this reasoning. I also love how you are taking your youngster under your wing! My Grandpa was my hero too. He taught me first hand to appreciate the water and the things in it, both living and otherwise.
Aquanut
 

Panfilo said:
There are, sadly, many “cannon men” all over the Caribbean, which remove the cannons and bells from wreck sites that they or their fishing friends come across, eliminating the possibility to positively identify the wreck. This will make future scientific studies of some of these wrecks almost impossible and the historical and cultural value carried aboard these ships eliminated. This is one of the controversial reasons that make the UNESCO Convention and its “in situ” preservation concept so detrimental for the proper conservation of shipwrecks in the Caribbean, where so many of the wrecks lie in shallow waters. When a nation does not properly regulate its shipwreck legislature and design its mechanisms in order to encourage these fortuitous finds to be declared and properly excavated by archaeologists, they will be looted and pillages and will disappear forever. Only history will be the judge, years from now, when thousands of valuable historic wrecks have been destroyed and pillaged all over the world, of the disastrous concepts conceived and enacted in the UNESCO Convention, not the least of which is the “in situ” conservation.
Panfilo
Click to expand...

There are "cannon men" all over the world. I know of two truck loads of bronze cannon, 36 cannon actually, dating from the 17th century, that were stopped on the way to the foundry, to be sold as scrap metal.
In the Bahamas, during WWII, many barge loads of cannon, bronze and iron, were taken to Miami to be melted down.
In Haiti I found bronze cannon, where parts had been cut off with hacksaws, to be sold for scrap.
I know of an astrolabe that was sold to the scrap yard for US$20.

Since ever and ever people of the sea have been collecting stuff from the bottom of the sea to make a living. Nobody can stop that, because the sea is so vast that control is not possible.
Several countries on the Mediterranean, have banned the diving on old shipwrecks since many years. There are thousands of Roman shipwrecks there, all destroyed, despite the ban.

What can be done to preserve the historic artifacts, with all the historic data they can tell us?
Which is the best method?

Let's look at the way it is done around the world.
Let's try to find the best way.

As I understand it, the UK have a reasonable system. Does it function? What are the pro's and con's?

Are there other countries that have a good system?

CP
 

Forums like this one are making a change, things are bright if conversation like this continues at some stage someone will get through to the other side, and there will be Unesco soldiers that defect it all takes time, hopefully sooner than later as govt funding runs out for the academics and they are forced to include the private sector. Then everyone will agree that everyones s...t stinks.
 

In my humble opinion we need to stop thinking as “treasure hunters” and we need to start thinking as “history hunters” we need to start thinking; archeology, education, conservation and exhibition. At the end if we can get rewarded with a little bit of treasure, that would be wonderful. Call it a souvenir, trophy, reward for your achievement. The rest can be paid in what ever, coffee beans for all I care, as long as we get to recuperate or investment and profit in a reasonable period of time. We need to start thinking how are we going to contribute to the country that is opening their door and giving us the opportunity to achieve and succeed.
We can always keep rights to books, videos, TV shows, etc. and even from those profits I would still donate a small % to that country to be used towards maritime, history or archeology education.
 

Mistakes have been made.
It does not matter who made the mistakes. What matters is to analyse the mistakes and correct.
To analyse, we best go back some time, take a possible location and see what has been done over the years.

What are the results?

Then make some conjectures of what could have been.
What could the results be if it had been done the different way?

One of the richest areas of shipwreck treasure is the Azores. Countless richly laden galleons sank there. Some on the coast, others in deep water, all of them accessible today.

Billions of dollars of treasure. Priceless historical, archaeological and anthropological information about the development of trade from the new to the old world.

About 30 years ago, Marx, one of the most knowledgeable persons on historic shipwrecks, visited the government of the Azores and proposed to recover some of these treasures.

Marx was turned down.

What has happened in the 30 years since then? How did the population of the Azores benefit from the immense riches hidden beneath the waves on the coasts of the islands?

The Azores is an archipelago of 9 islands. The island economy has always been difficult. About 30 years ago, the Whale fishing came to an end, reducing the income even more.
There were some attempts at developing tourism, but without a very special magnet, it is difficult to attract tourists to such a remote place, that has not been blessed with much sun and beaches of white sand.

So the islanders are mostly poor people working very hard just to survive.

What if The Azores government had made a deal with Marx? For example:

Marx would supply financing, know-how, technology, scientific staff, technicians, vessels etc.

The Azores would let Marx keep 50% of the treasure.

Marx would have to employ people from the Azores for 90% of the work force.
Marx would have to setup treatment, preservation and conservation labs for all the artifacts.
Marx and the Azores government would make a joint venture Museum/Theme park where the history, anthropology and archaeology of the treasure galleons would be explained in an interesting exhibit that would attract many tourists.

I think Marx would have been happy with this deal.

What would the deal have brought to the people of the Azores?

I think we can safely surmise that over the 30 years since then, the 50% of treasure of the Azores people would amount to over one billion dollars. 1,000,000,000 US Dollars.

By now, probably over 500 people would be employed by the enterprise.

Tourism would have gotten a big boost. Let's not forget, that every tourist visiting the Azores would spend several thousand dollars. That means if on the average, about 100,000 tourists per year, (a small number) visited the islands because of the treasure galleons, this would be about 3,000,000 tourists, each spending a few thousand dollars.... that amounts to several billions of dollars of income.

With some of the money the government of the Azores could have build and maintained an International University of Ocean Sciences. There is no better location for that than an archipelago in the middle of an Ocean.
By now, many of the world's most famous Ocean Scientists would come from there.

Some of the money could have been spent on improving shipyards and harbors. First to serve and maintain the Galleon Recovery Flotilla and the existing trans Atlantic boating business. Then to serve and maintain some of the Atlantic high seas fishing fleet.
More jobs.

I could go on and on. A vast amount of jobs could have been created with the monies coming to the Azores from the treasure galleons, improving the per capita income of the archipelago substantially.

Here is a question:
Were the people of the Azores asked for their opinion, when the Government turned down Marx's proposal?

Where the people of the Azores aware of the benefits that such a deal could have brought to the Azores?

Oceanscience
 

Those are very wise words Chagy, that is definitely the future of things to come. Those treasure hunters that don’t evolve and adapt to the new realities are doomed to disappear, times change. True, the pioneers of the fifties and sixties that discovered many wrecks with the resurge of the recent technology that enabled man to dive very deep did what they were supposed to do at that point in history and they should be remembered with great regard and admiration. Today fortunately there is a growing concern for the preservation and understanding of cultures and peoples that came before us and archaeologists must be involved in all aspects of the exploration and recovery of historic wrecks, ensuring that the time capsule that all of these wrecks are will be preserved. Some archeologists are under the impression and have the firm belief that “treasure hunters” can not adapt and evolve to meet these new realities. But things are changing as one observer can detect in the superb professional quality of the work that companies like Odyssey are now doing, publishing their archaeological work, done with the highest standards, far superior than many government sponsored works.

Different sciences have evolved and are now what they are thanks to some primitive yet resourceful individuals. Chemistry evolved from alchemists and only thanks to their investigations and effort a new science emerged. Psychology evolved from philosophy, theology and medicine with such individuals as Franz Anton Mesmer ( “mesmerized”) and all fields of human endeavor do so evolve.

Treasure can be recovered scientifically, adding to a nations heritage and its museums and serious enterprises can make money for the high risk investors that decide to engage in these projects. Both can exist and are not mutually exclusive as one is lead to believe.
Panfilo
 

Oceanscience said:
Mistakes have been made.
It does not matter who made the mistakes. What matters is to analyse the mistakes and correct.
To analyse, we best go back some time, take a possible location and see what has been done over the years.

What are the results?

Then make some conjectures of what could have been.
What could the results be if it had been done the different way?

One of the richest areas of shipwreck treasure is the Azores. Countless richly laden galleons sank there. Some on the coast, others in deep water, all of them accessible today.

Billions of dollars of treasure. Priceless historical, archaeological and anthropological information about the development of trade from the new to the old world.

About 30 years ago, Marx, one of the most knowledgeable persons on historic shipwrecks, visited the government of the Azores and proposed to recover some of these treasures.

Marx was turned down.

What has happened in the 30 years since then? How did the population of the Azores benefit from the immense riches hidden beneath the waves on the coasts of the islands?

The Azores is an archipelago of 9 islands. The island economy has always been difficult. About 30 years ago, the Whale fishing came to an end, reducing the income even more.
There were some attempts at developing tourism, but without a very special magnet, it is difficult to attract tourists to such a remote place, that has not been blessed with much sun and beaches of white sand.

So the islanders are mostly poor people working very hard just to survive.

What if The Azores government had made a deal with Marx? For example:

Marx would supply financing, know-how, technology, scientific staff, technicians, vessels etc.

The Azores would let Marx keep 50% of the treasure.

Marx would have to employ people from the Azores for 90% of the work force.
Marx would have to setup treatment, preservation and conservation labs for all the artifacts.
Marx and the Azores government would make a joint venture Museum/Theme park where the history, anthropology and archaeology of the treasure galleons would be explained in an interesting exhibit that would attract many tourists.

I think Marx would have been happy with this deal.

What would the deal have brought to the people of the Azores?

I think we can safely surmise that over the 30 years since then, the 50% of treasure of the Azores people would amount to over one billion dollars. 1,000,000,000 US Dollars.

By now, probably over 500 people would be employed by the enterprise.

Tourism would have gotten a big boost. Let's not forget, that every tourist visiting the Azores would spend several thousand dollars. That means if on the average, about 100,000 tourists per year, (a small number) visited the islands because of the treasure galleons, this would be about 3,000,000 tourists, each spending a few thousand dollars.... that amounts to several billions of dollars of income.

With some of the money the government of the Azores could have build and maintained an International University of Ocean Sciences. There is no better location for that than an archipelago in the middle of an Ocean.
By now, many of the world's most famous Ocean Scientists would come from there.

Some of the money could have been spent on improving shipyards and harbors. First to serve and maintain the Galleon Recovery Flotilla and the existing trans Atlantic boating business. Then to serve and maintain some of the Atlantic high seas fishing fleet.
More jobs.

I could go on and on. A vast amount of jobs could have been created with the monies coming to the Azores from the treasure galleons, improving the per capita income of the archipelago substantially.

Here is a question:
Were the people of the Azores asked for their opinion, when the Government turned down Marx's proposal?

Where the people of the Azores aware of the benefits that such a deal could have brought to the Azores?

Oceanscience
Click to expand...


And also. In 1986 the government of Azores launched a public tender. I participate in a joint venture with DIVE TASK and AQUARIUS , a prestigious Italian company for underwater archeology. In 1988 the public tender was declared unconstitutional by Lisbon (probably in the shade were working Francisco Alves and Octavio Lixa Filgueriras, both members of the same club!)
Cheers VV
 

Panfilo said:
Those are very wise words Chagy, that is definitely the future of things to come. Those treasure hunters that don’t evolve and adapt to the new realities are doomed to disappear, times change. True, the pioneers of the fifties and sixties that discovered many wrecks with the resurge of the recent technology that enabled man to dive very deep did what they were supposed to do at that point in history and they should be remembered with great regard and admiration. Today fortunately there is a growing concern for the preservation and understanding of cultures and peoples that came before us and archaeologists must be involved in all aspects of the exploration and recovery of historic wrecks, ensuring that the time capsule that all of these wrecks are will be preserved. Some archeologists are under the impression and have the firm belief that “treasure hunters” can not adapt and evolve to meet these new realities. But things are changing as one observer can detect in the superb professional quality of the work that companies like Odyssey are now doing, publishing their archaeological work, done with the highest standards, far superior than many government sponsored works.

Different sciences have evolved and are now what they are thanks to some primitive yet resourceful individuals. Chemistry evolved from alchemists and only thanks to their investigations and effort a new science emerged. Psychology evolved from philosophy, theology and medicine with such individuals as Franz Anton Mesmer ( “mesmerized”) and all fields of human endeavor do so evolve.

Treasure can be recovered scientifically, adding to a nations heritage and its museums and serious enterprises can make money for the high risk investors that decide to engage in these projects. Both can exist and are not mutually exclusive as one is lead to believe.
Panfilo
Click to expand...

Panfi,
UNESCO is a ploy to monopolize the recovery of thousands of tons of gold, silver, emeralds, jewelry, etc.. where all belong to the same club.
Spain has thousands of shipwrecks with treasure, but bought artifacts at auction by Mel Fisher. So did Frank Goddio with the galleon San Diego and the Naval Museum in Madrid.
It is easier to buy to the treasure hunters and don't affirm your failures.
Cheers VV
 

Ignorance is bliss.
I think the creators of the UNESCO convention are very blissful people.
I don't believe they had any ulterior motives besides hiding behind a bureaucratic wall to hide their ignorance.
Imagine they had to admit that some uneducated diver, or chicken farmer, people without any PhD, MBA, no formal education at all, knew more about finding shipwrecks that they knew!!!!
The fact is, that government funded archaeologist do not account for even one per cent of shipwrecks located. And from the few located, most had been found by fishermen or sport divers before.

But, to justify their salaries, paid from tax payers monies, they have to come up with some way to defend their jobs.

But now the convention exists. Many countries take it as their guidelines. So we have to find a way to work with it.
Are we clever enough to find a way? Or are we blissful people ourselves?

I think it is up to us to find a compromise that is workable and satisfies the academic world, history buffs, politicians, financiers and not to forget, ourselves.

If we can meet that challenge, then, to find the shipwrecks is easy. For us!!!!

CP
 

Though Jeff posted this newspaper article in another thread today, it is pertinent to this one as it mentions the Cordoba fleet as potential income for helping Spain come out of the crisis:

Sigan apuntando: 'San Roque', 'Santo Domingo', 'San Ambrosio', 'Nuestra Señora de Begoña', 'Nuestra Señora de los Remedios' (en Zacatula, México), la nao 'San Antonio' (costa de Tabasco), el 'Nuestra Señora de Atocha', hundido por un huracán en Florida, la almiranta de la Flota de Nueva España, 'Nuestra Señora de la Concepción', la almiranta de la Armada de Tierra Firme, 'Nuestra Señora de las Maravillas'... Miles de millones de euros hundidos en el mar a la espera de rescate. Miles de millones de lecciones de historia a la espera de que alguien se ponga las gafas de bucear y se anime a leerlas...

http://www.laverdad.es/albacete/v/20100606/sociedad_murcia/hundido-para-acabar-crisis-20100606.html
Panfilo
 

Thanks Panfilo, for the interesting link. Very good article, well worth translating with Google Translate.

The idea of getting Spain out of it's financial crisis with the gold and silver from the shipwrecks may be a bit far fetched, but the truth is that there are billions of dollars on the bottom of the sea, where they do no good to humankind.

Millions of pieces of history.

Millions of people would spend money to be appointed custodian of a piece of history. Only if the pieces of history have a high monetary value, people will take good care of them. If they have no monetary value, they will turn into trash.

If the shipwreck artifacts can not be sold, they have no value to most of the people and therefore most of the people would object to the government spending their hard earned tax dollars for recovering artifacts that only cost a lot every year for conservation and safe keeping.

CP
 

Below is a link to a story about the “HUNLEY”.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38595193/ns/us_news-life/?gt1=43001

I extracted a few lines that I feel are pertinent to this thread.

The archaeological excavation of a shipwreck does cost a lot. However, in today’s world, there are possibilities to raise the needed funding, if the work is done according to the rules.

During the past 15 years, about $22 million has been spent excavating and conserving the Hunley, according to Friends of Hunley, the nonprofit group that raises money for the project.

About $10.8 million came from the state and federal government, with the rest raised through donations and tour ticket and merchandise sales. About a half million people have seen the sub that sits in a tank of water at the conservation lab.
An economic analysis earlier this year estimated the project has returned its investment many times over.
The study found that publicity from hundreds of news stories, a half dozen documentaries and a made-for-TV movie has generated at least $30 million in a state where tourism is an $18 billion industry.

CP
 

Salvor6 said:
Those look like top quality emeralds. The emeralds that came off the 1622 Atocha were just as good as new after over 350 years under seawater. Since the Atocha sank just 17 years after the 1605 fleet, not much new will be learned. Whats so important about the San Roque? I heard the manifest lists 2,000 pounds of emeralds as property of the King. Do you have any idea what that is worth today?
The Atocha had two grades of emeralds from the Muzo mines. The dark green ones and what we called the "milky white" emeralds. If the wrecks are found of course Spain will claim them. No doubt.
Click to expand...
I would like to speak to you guys concerning a 1605 Spanish treasure fleet. My chief diver The late show Barnett from San Diego California went to serenia Banks aboard 150 ft ship called the tropic explorer and on board were a dozen more qualified scuba guys and they found the remains of that fleet on the reef and I have held in my hand coins that came from that disaster. Dr Paul Cohen finance the expedition and was indeed on board and he had one leg and Joe Barnett caught him how to find the coins and sent him up to the ship with coins in his hands and a celebrated the happiest day of his life but shortly after that the good doctor passed away because of eating bad oysters.

In about 1998 I filed three guano mining claims with the secretary of the United States based on the guano act of 1856 which allows adventurers to claim the mining rights to the high quality fertilizers. Those three islands that I have claims on are: bajo Nuevo, Serranilla Banks and Navassa
Island. I have a few photos taken underwater by Joe showing some coins cannons and a bent bronze nail Spike.
The group and the good doctor signed an agreement with the admiral of the Colombian Navy giving only 10% to the salvors. Columbia sent armed guards aboard the ship and forward the divers on every move and then a pirate ship approached the big ship there was a gun battle the bad guys left shortly thereafter there was a hurricane and the remains of the pirate ship washed up onto the beach at Serranilla Banks

Here is our website and I will throw in my new phone number here near Florida.

Goldenquests.com

754-272 0613
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

The "Tank" is back at our Jupiter Shipwreck Site!

⬅️ Previous Thread

Buried World War II Fighter Found On Welsh Beach...

Next Thread ➡️

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 3 (members: 0, guests: 3)
Simplex Metal Detector

Latest Discussions

Back
Top