Undiscovered treasure galleons

[Chagy]

Good Morning Gentleman,

When you say; Very little serious search has been done for the 1605 galleons. It makes me want to find out how many people have search for these galleons and what was their result or findings. I know Burt Webber has been there and done that, so did Marx and so did Don. I also know of a diver by the name of Joe who was on an expedition there and claims that he found 2 of the galleons. I found out about the Joe story through a good friend of mine. The one thing I do have is respect for others and for privilege information. My friend is a member of this forum so if wants to tell the story, he will….Burt W. is a very good friend of mine and I stay in touch all the time. I will ask what is he willing to share about his expedition there…

 

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[Mackaydon]

To perform any serious search would require a prolonged presence in the area. The amount of energy and capital required would be significant. The time at sea (and in preparation) would be significant. There are no motels or nearby ports of call to satisfy R and R. How long can the crew run '24-7' is a consideration. Do you need onboard a skeleton back-up crew or are you going to increase 'burnout' by having one crew perform the night watches? Can your crew leave their individual egos on the dock and work as a team for an extended period of time?

Above all, where is the permit? Where is the division agreement? Would you carte blanche approve any appraisal method by the host country? What are the qualifications of the appraiser? What agreement is there regarding timing of distribution? How would the distribution be conducted? Where would the artifacts be stored and conserved? And at whose and what expense (should be an easy question)? Are you prepared to take your division 'in-kind'--like via bonds of the permit issuing country? Are your investors or your own 'deep pockets' prepared for only a 'search' project? You/they better be. I'll stop there.

Research is a 'noble' part of any project. Application of that research is when the 'rubber meets the road'.

And yes, I know 'Joe'. From my conversations with him over the years he has indicated 'finds' but none that could be directly associated with any specific wreck (or fleet). Perhaps 'of the period' is the closest those finds could be dated--IMHO. Then again, no doubt many of the places within that area also contain artifacts 'of the period'.
Don.......

 

[Panfilo]

Many topics, many questions, many uncertainties. This is a clasical nautical detective story, as good as they get.There are two different points that intertwine I think, one is what is the location of the sinking of these four galleons, as this has been a mystery since 1605, many stories abound, Isla Misteriosa, Bay of Ascension, Cumana, Bahamas and heaven knows where else there have been “sightings”. This is the core of this thread, to explore these theories and see if they make sense. Vox has a document that states there was a survivor aboard the San Roque who made it to Cuba and later to Spain…I don’t believe in this guys story, I believe he made the story up, the “survivor”; I believe Vox found such a document.

The other subject is the permit and related legislation that will permit/prohibit the “economical” recovery of these wrecks by law-abiding companies and individuals. The “pirates”, well, they’ll always exist and in those inhospitable areas life is very dangerous. I have heard that in the early to mid 80’s an expedition that went there was never heard of again, not sure if this is correct but with the drug running trade crossing this strategic area it could very well have happened. If one looks at the bathymetric chart of this area, the surrounding waters to Serranilla are very, very deep and searching for a colonial wreck there is serious business, and as Don wisely noted, the logistics are such that only a very well financed and organized operation will succeed. In the latest proposal for the enactment of a “New law” in Colombia, just a few months ago, it was proposed by the pro-UNESCO Ministry of Culture, that the contractor be allowed to bring up all the artifacts and LATER the Ministry would decide which were his and which were the Governments. Ridiculous!! Likewise the split would be decided based on some very uncertain parameters that no serious company would adhere to. As you can see, there are different ways of getting to the “in-situ preservation” concept, one is to adhere to the Convention, and the other is to propose such unrealistic laws that nothing will ever be voted upon or no new legislation will be adopted to permit the recovery of historic wrecks. One thing is certain, that if Colombia were to adhere to the UNESCO Convention, no Senate or Congress would approve 40 or 50 million dollars to go look for some galleons that if they were eventually to be found, (no easy task as we all know) would have to be conserved at a huge expense to the nation and whose gold and silver bars can not be sold. That is certain, at least in my humble view of things.

 

[Colombiapictures]

Screw UNESCO and their idea of leaving all wrecks as they are 'in-situ'.

Didn't Odyssey already prove that even the deep water wrecks are getting dispersed and destroyed by the fishing trawlers with their deep trolling nets raking the sea bed? On one of their documentaries, they had visited a wreck site once and mapped everything and then when they went back to that site several months later some cannons had clearly been dragged several meters. Is that a good thing

Just my five cents worth.
TW

You bring up a very good point. "In situ preservation". What it really means, in real life terms, is ignore it. Make believe it is somebody else's problem. Not get involved.

Odyssey, proved more than one thing. They proved that a private enterprise can do a top notch archaeological survey and excavation.
They proved that "in situ preservation" is not realistic and in fact a lie to the public.
They forced Spain into action. Spain can claim ownership to most of the sunken treasure. However, to claim ownership, also means to defend ownership and to be capable of enforcing ownership.
They also need to be capable of finding the shipwrecks.
If they leave the shipwrecks abandoned, like they have for a few hundred years, ownership is rather academic.

So Spain has begun spending money on their shipwrecks. Once they have spent a few tens of millions, the taxpayers are going to ask for results.

Do you think they will be able to show results?

CP

 

[Salvor6]

Panfilo I was good friends with Eric White who was on the Pacific Geographic expedition. He said they thought they found the San Roque but it was buried under 90 feet of sand and after a few feet, the sand was like concrete. Eric was also co-founder of SUB-ARCH with Anita Cohen Williams but he simply disappeared a few years ago and not even his family can find him.

 

[Colombiapictures]

Good Morning Gentleman,

When you say; Very little serious search has been done for the 1605 galleons. It makes me want to find out how many people have search for these galleons and what was their result or findings. I know Burt Webber has been there and done that, so did Marx and so did Don. I also know of a diver by the name of Joe who was on an expedition there and claims that he found 2 of the galleons. I found out about the Joe story through a good friend of mine. The one thing I do have is respect for others and for privilege information. My friend is a member of this forum so if wants to tell the story, he will….Burt W. is a very good friend of mine and I stay in touch all the time. I will ask what is he willing to share about his expedition there…

I did not meant to say that any of the people searching there were not serious. On the contrary, I have the greatest respect for every and each one who has gone there.
Just to make it there is a major feat.
However, the region is so vast, just the shallow banks alone, that it would take years only just to make a full magnetometer survey. And that is today, with GPS. In the old times one had no such thing to plot a track.
Then all the mag hits need to be checked out.

How many actual working days have been spent searching the banks?

How many actual working days could a well organized expedition spend on site per year?

How large a vessel and how large a crew would be needed to accomplish that?

Where would the base of operations be? San Andres? Providencia? Kingston Jamaica?

The logistics are considerable.

CP

 

[Panfilo]

There are many recorded shipwrecks in the Serranilla shoals Salvor as you are very much aware of, and many that simply vanished and nobody knows where they disappeared and finally wrecked there without any trace or survivors. Here is one such account of one of the first type of wrecks in 1820 (sorry it’s in Spanish):

“En efecto, iba yo en la goleta en que estaba el comodoro y en la que también el compañero Ferrari se había embarcado con todas las compañías especiales de su ba¬tallón, cuando en horas de la noche, con un viento fresquísimo y una marea alta, calmos sobre los escollos llamados Placer de la Serranilla y no hubo modo de desencallar. Grande era la confusión pero la presencia de ánimo del comodoro era imper¬turbable. Ordenó inmediatamente que toda la artillería fuera arrojada al agua, pero amarrada con cuerdas, luégo las botas, después se cortaron los árboles y, amarrados, fueron arrojados también al mar, pero nada sirvió para hacer flotar un navío tan grande, que empujado por el fuerte viento y por el mar grueso sé habla enterrado mucho en la arena, y que por las continuas sacudidas se habla destrozado en tal forma que el agua entraba por todas partes. Apenas amaneció se trató de salvar a los hombres. Se construyó inmediatamente una especie de balsa con todos los árboles y vergas del barco, además de las vigas y tablas del mismo, todo amarrado con fuertes lazos, y encima se puso una bota de agua y se distribuyó un poco de bizcocho para cada uno. Dos esquifes y uña lancha debían remolcar esta balsa en la cual iban oficiales, soldados y marineros. Los más expertos y robustos iban en las embarcaciones comandadas por los tres primeros oficiales de a bordo. Pero cuando tanta gente pasó a aquellos maderos, se hundieron y el agua nos llegaba has¬ta la rodilla. Si nos cansábamos dé estar de pie y queríamos sen¬tarnos el agua nos llegaba hasta el pecho. Allí lo perdimos todo menos nuestros papeles, que llevábamos colgados al cuello en un estuche de lata.”

What I’m trying to say Salvor is that if the San Roque was or is 90 feel under “concrete hard sand”, I seriously doubt that they can or could say with any certainty that what they found was this particular galleon. Not with what they had there from what I’ve heard.
Panfilo

 

[Salvor6]

I agree with you Panfilo. I am just telling you what I heard honest testimony from one of the crew members of the Pacific Geographic expedition. The conditions were terrible with numerous storms and they lost several support vessels. One crewman broke his leg and there is no medical support for hundreds of miles. Difficult conditions o say the least. No wonder there were no survivors from this fleet.

 

[Chagy]

Good evening Gentleman,

Both of these maps are from the 1700s and both show wrecks in False Cape, Honduras. The first one is a very common one from Thomas Jeffrey. The second one I bought it and is supposed to be from a rare collection.

Does anyone know what these wrecks are? Pete is this where you found the 16 century rare wheel lock pistol?

 

[Panfilo]

Chagy:
The origins of the Miskito indians has been traced to a Portuguese slave boat that wrecked in 1640 on the Miskito Keys, N.E. of Cape Gracias a Dios, mixing the black slaves with the local indians, east of where your map shows the wreck. But specifically your beautiful map shows a wreck that surely is the 1711 Nathaniel Uring’s slave sloop, sailing from Bluefields along the Miskito coast, he got caught in a storm and wrecked on False Cape. I recommend you read his book “A History of the Voyages and Travels” . Panfilo

 

[Chagy]

Panfi,

I believe that the mix between the slaves and the Indians is called Gurifana or something like that.
Now I am a bit confused. Too me both maps show the wrecks in the same location on the Thomas J. they are a bit north. But it seems to be the same location? or did you find another wreck that I have not seen?

 

[Panfilo]

Well yes and no Chagy, Garifuna (is singular and Garinagu is plural) is a name for an afro-indian mix that occurs in most of the Caribbean. In Honduras there has been a struggle between the Miskito Indians and the Garifuna, one describing itself as an indigenous group and the other an Afro-indigenous group respectively, which is strange as the Miskito descend from the Portuguese slave ship that wrecked there in 1711. They somehow deny their heritage and do differentiate themselves culturally from the Garifuna…weird.

One gets the impression that both maps relate to the same wreck, close to False Cape (Cabo Falso) South of where the River Kuta reaches the ocean. Just some thoughts, nice maps,
Panfilo

 

[Salvor6]

Chagy the wreck with 25 bronze cannons is one mile N. of Cabo Gracias Adios in 25' of water right about where that drawing of the ship is. That was in 1994.

 

[Panfilo]

Salvor, the distance between False Cape, where the map places the wreck, and Cabo Gracias a Dios is 31.13 kilometers...
Panfilo

 

[Salvor6]

"between False Cape, where the map places the wreck, and Cabo Gracias a Dios is 31.13 kilometers"

Wow, I didn't know the scale was so far off.

 

[Chagy]

Chagy the wreck with 25 bronze cannons is one mile N. of Cabo Gracias Adios in 25' of water right about where that drawing of the ship is. That was in 1994.

I have the chart you gave me with the bronze cannon wreck but I am not posting that here

 

[Colombiapictures]

There is the favorite theory and there are the lesser ones.

When we do some research on a shipwreck, sooner or later we start building a theory about it’s whereabouts. Where did it sink? We compile all the information available, intermingle our personal experience and knowledge and, with this conglomerate we build our preferred theory of where the shipwreck is.

Then we try to look at all the data from a different angle. For this it is best, if we have a team of experienced and knowledgeable people who bring to the table different areas of expertise.

From the focus of different expertise, things might look very different. The more different angles we can view and discuss, the better are the chances of coming up with a really well founded solid theory. Where did this galleon sink? Why? Why there?

I was going to talk about the three galleons of the 1605 fleet, that made it to Jamaica, today.

However, Chagy posted some very compelling maps and information, together with his earlier claims, that mentioned the possibility of the shipwrecks having ended up somewhere on the coast of what is today Nicaragua or Honduras.
So let’s look a bit closer at that theory.

A shipwreck with 25 bronze cannon, must have been an important ship.
The location? I know very little about the Miskito coast. Columbus passed there in 1502. I need to look up what his comments were.
Then nothing until 1630. The Slave ship of 1640 certainly did not carry 25 bronze guns.

Panfilo, you probably know a lot more about the Miskito coast. Would you fill us in? please?

So it seems that the Miskito coast is really one of the remotest and unexplored regions of the Caribbean.
One could think that it was far enough from the usual routes, that it might even be possible for a galleon of the 1605 fleet to have stranded on this coast, never to be found until modern days.

The fact that 25 bronze cannon are still on the wreck, speaks for that.

How could the ship have gotten there?

We know that the storm was very violent. All the ships suffered severe damage in the rigging.
A totally disabled ship might be just carried by the prevailing winds and currents to wherever they go.
There we have a little problem. At least with the currents, they don’t really go towards the coast.

But what about the winds? A bit late for the hurricane season, but not impossible that a tropical storm passed in the region some time later, to blow the hulk on the coast.

Interesting shipwreck anyway. Whatever it's date is.

Ah and what about the emeralds that have turned up on the market?

What about the recent economic boom on the Miskito coast?

Could there be a connection?

CP

 

[Colombiapictures]

Some info about the Miskito Coast at the link below.

http://www.athenapub.com/damp2.htm

CP

 

[Chagy]

The Indians in la Mosquita don’t like outsiders. Some people say that they protect the location of Ciudad Blanca and also protect drug dealers. What I do know is that these Indians have machineguns. The locals do know about the wreck and they have been picking from it for a long time.

In one of my many trips to Honduras I met an Italian guy in Roatan he is married to a local girl from la Mosquita. This Italian showed me coins from the 1650s that he found in la Mosquita.

 

[Salvor6]

Chagy I also know of a guy in La Mosquita called the "Cannon Man." He has tons of cannons stacked up in his back yard that he sells for scrap. He just bought a new Toyota 4-runner with his profits.