Two peaks

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning springfiled, I can state flatly that according to his story, Rose was never at Tayopa proper., the rest is up to you.

Cafe??

Jose.

 

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[Springfield]

G'd morning springfiled, I can state flatly that according to his story, Rose was never at Tayopa proper., the rest is up to you.

Cafe??

Jose.

Hmm ... I never mentioned Rose, and I have no interest in Tayopa. Perhaps you're posting in the wrong thread? Well, if the rest is up to me, I say, "Carry on."

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Afternoon Springfield, nah see post # 157 in this series.

don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Afternoon Springfield, nah see post # 157 in this series.

don Jose de La Mancha

OK, got it - thanks, DJ.

 

[kanabite]

Want more? If, as I speculate, Marcos de Niza followed the Gila River instead of turning north at the San Francisco River in 1539, he well could have ended up in this canyon, not at Zuni. I've discussed this at length elsewhere.

de Niza ,hmmmmmm , probably one of the few candidates for "one of the good guys" club . speculate all you wish , i think Zuni is a lame place for the history as recorded. lol wonder just how far he really did make it up some of those ancient trails ? he possibly was warning the natives of the coming doom , among other things .IMO

 

[Ecominer]

For What it is worth, if you go to the north end of Truth or Consequences on the I-25 there is a road going west. If you follow that road about twenty miles west (gravel), look to the southwest. There are two major hills, some would call mountains, about fifteen miles away (estimating). if you are coming from the west through the mountains they could be descriptive of what Adams saw.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hello all

Has anyone come up with any new bits of info or details?

I, personally, have gone as far as possible with my own research, but can safely say that this legend has got me hooked.

The only new thing I can add is that, old Mangas Coloradas did have a sizeable Rancheria with a patch which grew crops prior to his death in 1863. It was based in western New Mexico in what was then "Apache Country". If this was really near the spot that Adams and his party visited, then it would narrow the area down considerably.

Only thing is, even before Mangas' death, he was visited in that particular area many times by the US Army...


IPUK

 

[UncleMatt]

Nope, I've been waiting for people to contribute something ever since I posted that LAD map....

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Which map is that, UM?

IPUK

 

[UncleMatt]

The Google earth map where I showed distances from all landmarks mentioned in all versions of the story...

 

[Oroblanco]

UncleMatt wrote

Nope, I've been waiting for people to contribute something ever since I posted that LAD map....

For those whom have not seen the map, here is the first post where UncleMatt showed it:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-adams-diggings/387625-two-peaks-6.html#post3808959

Uncle Matt took a rather defensive posture in challenging any and all to post comments, which is natural to expect criticism. I can not speak for everyone but did not post any comments about the Google Earth type map for several reasons.

Firstly, satellite images have very limited use in treasure hunting. They are indeed quite useful, yet have limitations, one of which being that they are simply a photograph taken from a very high altitude, landmarks are rarely marked, the scale of the photo(s) almost never shown, the difficulty in determining exactly what is shown in the photo(s) and so on. There is a reason why the military puts people through an extensive course in how to interpret satellite and aerial photographs correctly for it is only too easy to mistake a bush for a boulder, a stream bed for a trail etc.

Were our amigo Springfield here I think he would point out that the landmarks shown on UncleMatt's map, are based on various accounts/sources of which most are questionable and not wholly reliable. Some of the sources on LAD lore were certainly not with Adams at the mine but were trying to insiuate themselves into the legend, either to 'cash in' on the profits from publicity, or to try to claim a share of the gold when/if someone were to actually locate it.

Then there is yet another issue which is quite an obstacle; for there are not one Lost Adams but two; these two legends date to two different time periods and both involve a man named Adams, the second and later version involving one Henry Adams whom was an Indian trader operating in the Navajo reservation. This is the Adams that showed ore specimens in Fort Wingate, and the information/clues from these two separate stories have been horribly intermixed to the point that it is quite difficult to separate them today. The best chance for separating the chaff and hubris is in going to the oldest sources you can find, rather than any modern sources. Not to cast aspersions on modern LAD authors, some excellent research has been done by them, yet none seem to have taken note that there are two separate LAD legends that are not related and should not be mixed together.

UncleMatt's map is quite interesting having said all those 'warnings' yet I do not think we can ID some of the landmarks by satellite images. We do not even know for certain exactly how wide the famous zig-zag canyon was, though one account says you could touch both sides (walls) from horseback while standing in the middle, which implies a very narrow canyon. Not sure we ought to put any importance to Camp Allen as "day one" either for the oldest version of the LAD that I could find, stated that the party started out from Gila Bend, and traveled on horseback in a GENERAL NE direction for TEN days not three. Adams did not know any of the geography during this ride it was all new country to him, so trying to pick out which high mountain they spotted the twin peaks from is very doubtful.

The fact that Adams was entering totally unknown country (to him) on the trip to the mine from Gila Bend helps explain why he had SO much trouble in finding it on his several attempts to reclaim it. He was very unsure of his own landmarks!

I don't wish to find fault with your map UncleMatt, so ask your forgiveness if anything posted is offensive, no offense was intended. I had expected others would have had much more to say on it, personally it is my opinion that while such satellite image maps are useful, they are not the best to work from.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Which of the coffee's is mine ?

 

[UncleMatt]

I welcome any reasonable criticism of my map, that isn't an issue. Unlike some, I simply don't get my ego involved. It is what it is, I just put it together in map form. The information its based on didn't come from me, and I draw no conclusions from my map other than there is an area that most of these distances share in common. It was a thought experiment.

I would just like to see others engaging in similar things, instead of no comments in the LAD section at all for many months. Has it all been said and conjectured upon to the point where nothing further need be said? Its possible, and I would rather admit that than have people constantly rehashing what has already been covered. At some point you fish or cut bait.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

I still would say that the story and its characters need to be verified as far as possible, before engaging in possible locations.

IPUK

 

[UncleMatt]

lol, and that has been done repeatedly. I made many attempts to find the "characters", and some you find and some you don't. The locations are mostly there, but its the stories that tell you those locations.

Here is a question: how many people do you feel are actively searching for the LAD in the field?

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Oroblanco is right - you are pretty defensive.

You say that " I made many attempts to find the 'characters '", why do you assume I am referring the question to you in particular?

You say "The locations are mostly there, but it'd the stories that tell you those locations. "
I was under the impression it is a single "location" and a single "story"?
But hey-ho what do I know, your 'map' should aid you in your search.

You pose the question of many people I feel are " in the field" searching. Does that make a positive contribution?

What does that add to the story?

No doubt any obsessive looking at the story with their own 'research' and 'special ' information and/or details, is on the 'verge' of locating the LAD. Another fruitcake or two to add to the basket case.

Please feel free to continue with your delving.


IPUK

 

[UncleMatt]

Nope, not defensive at all, just posting things you disagree with.The LAD, if it exists ,won't be found over the internet, but out in the field. How is making that simple, factual, reality based statement in any way "defensive"?

You ask me what I have added to the story? Stop asking me that question, start asking yourself....

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Believe it or not, I am not trying to find it!

Right, it'll be found by those thrashing around in the wilderness with their 'secret' and 'special ' and 'new' maps and information. Keep right on.

I hope to hear of yet more 'finders' who can finally put this legend to bed.

Your question isn't rational be the way...

Ipuk

PS. Good luck with your map!

 

[UncleMatt]

My question isn't rational? Yes, it most certainly IS rational. Too bad you didn't even try to answer it , but instead tried to mischaracterize what I have posted here. You are free to start your own thread, and I encourage you to do so. Then you can play your game to your heart's content.

The idea that someone is "defensive" simply for asking inconvenient questions is absurd. When I posted my map originally, what did I say? I WELCOMED reasonable criticisms, as long as they were based on verifiable evidence. Not seeing anything defensive about that at all, and not in anything else I have subsequently posted here.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Whoops!

Now not only are you sounding defensive and irrational, you seem to acting very sensitive as well!

Especially for you, I will answer your question of "What I have added". Instead of acting as if I know everything connected to the story, I have simply attempted to offer some tidbits of information I have come across during research. Nothing more. No maps, certain facts and figures or anything of the like. The legend has me captivated and I enjoy reading and discussing it. Simple.

Why would I wish to start my own thread?
It seems you are getting a little heated and feeling that one might be encroaching on 'your' story. Apologies if that is the case. But to then insinuate I am playing "games?"
A little maturity would not go amiss!

Finally as for "your map", I haven't viewed it nor have any intention of doing so, therefore please refrain of taking your frustration with others out on some who have no desire to engage with your 'findings'.

Hope that helps.

IPUK

PS. Good luck with your map!