Two Others?

[timekiller]

Yea I've posted these a long time ago and were never figured out.Also off of another colonial site and have no clue to what they are.But you guy's are on a Hot Streak so I thought I'd try again.
As Always Thanks Ahead!

 

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[intimer]

The first one is a bell, it's not made to make noise, just a mold of one.

Its definitely a bell shape, if thats what you mean. What is the purpose of the opening in the side?

i was kinda wondering what the purpose of the hole even on a corkscrew. i have seen that kind before like breezie pic'd.
this bell shape could have just been decorative or souvenir like some one said.
you know montauk really got a good jump with the lettering.

 

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[timekiller]

Big C, you are taking me wrong or somthing But your help is greatly appreciated in my threads I was just wondering why you acted like you had to start type in black bold letters. I thought I was keeping up.But yes I can see how two people miles appart typing back and fourth might not get each other.And no need to be sorry You HAVE BEEN A BIG HELP YOU WERE THE ONE TO SAY BOTTLE OPENER FIRST! I will say I'm sorry to you though for not understanding you maybe.I do have problem with my reading some but what can you expect when you quit school in the 8th grade. But I try my hardest to understand everything I can.Only since I came on to this site have I read so much.All the rest of my life has been the hard road and hands on learning the hard way but I managed to make it work.Might die young from it who knows but it was the path I took in life. No Hard Feelings on this End!
And Thank You For Your Help!
Take Care,
Pete.

Sorry Pete. I think its me just being frustrated trying to figure this out. You are doing fine. I had no idea how to use a computer when I first joined TN. But it was all so interesting, that I cant stay away and Im constantly learning..

If its solid lead in the center, it cannot be a corkscrew.
It just looks like a different metal at one time went down through the lead center but is hard to tell by the pictures and Im having a hard time putting my questions into print. The smashed item clearly has a hole in it for some reason. A corkscrew can be made with a twisted steel wire that could have completely disentegrated in a saltwater environment.

[/quote]Sorry Pete. I think its me just being frustrated trying to figure this out. You are doing fine. I had no idea how to use a computer when I first joined TN. But it was all so interesting, that I cant stay away and Im constantly learning..

If its solid lead in the center, it cannot be a corkscrew.
It just looks like a different metal at one time went down through the lead center but is hard to tell by the pictures and Im having a hard time putting my questions into print. The smashed item clearly has a hole in it for some reason. A corkscrew can be made with a twisted steel wire that could have completely disentegrated in a saltwater environment.


[/quote]No problem Buddy,as I said no hard feelings on this end.
I wish I could green check it but don't feel like I have the answers yet on either one I do think you all are right just wish I could find one like it or one even made with the lead bell at all but I can't.Just was wanting to know how old something like it would date.
As far as 4-h's button I don't think mine is that either as mine is solid like a coin sort of and his is not looking at the back but is close to it in the shape of the leaf.
I'll add a pic of a penny on top just to show how small it is and to maybe understand that if it was a corkscrew it would be used for little bottles I would think.And the wire going through the center would be small not a solid shaft size object.Also another thing that caught my attention this morning of another type of corkscrew.
Here's the link
http://www.bullworks.net/clough/18751879.htm

 

[timekiller]

The first one is a bell, it's not made to make noise, just a mold of one.

Its definitely a bell shape, if thats what you mean. What is the purpose of the opening in the side?

i was kinda wondering what the purpose of the hole even on a corkscrew. i have seen that kind before like breezie pic'd.
this bell shape could have just been decorative or souvenir like some one said.
you know montauk really got a good jump with the lettering.

I have never seen a bell with a hole in the side and timekiller has stated that its not corroded in his opinion. I dont know the purpose.
If someone can google a connection between the letters and a bell/corkscrew we could solve this. Some better pics may help of the lettering.

The only logical reason for the holes in them that I could think of would be to release pressure off so it does not get caught under the cap and possibly fly up in your face and cause injury!


Also I'm thinking the letters we can see is _NDRETH!

 

[timekiller]

I agree completely that you cannot put up the green check because its not solved. I am hoping some others will help because I know nothing about corkscrews.

Heres a pic of a black glass bottle I found in the mangroves and I believe it will open this size. If its just for smaller bottles, than it would make it more interesting. I would imagine a colonial doctor would not want to destroy corks on valuable hard to get medicines.




Here is a pic side by side of a possible match. It look close to me but not enough to green check..

Agreed Big C,but the lead part?
1) does not go down the wire far enough
2)bell not shape quite the same
And here is how it is described
Small wooden handle, nickel plated steel bell and wire helix with shaft marked "WILLIAMSON'S". Bell retained with cotter pin and brass collar.

 

[timekiller]

If you are absolutely sure a steel wire could not have gone down the center than we are wasting our time talking corkscrews. Something went down the center of your item whether you will admit it or not. I dont think there would be a hole there if it was just plugged with lead.

I didnt mean that it was exact exact match. Only that the shape is a match and it should be followed up.

I said many times now that a wire is possible BUT NOT WHAT I consider a shaft.I've also said many times that I believe it is SOME TYPE of a corkscrew.Have been agreeing on the corkscrew deal every since it was brought up.Date on it or show one like it And I'll gladly green check for this one But not on 4-H's cause it's not a match either.

 

[timekiller]

I said many times now that a wire is possible BUT NOT WHAT I consider a shaft.I've also said many times that I believe it is SOME TYPE of a corkscrew.Have been agreeing on the corkscrew deal every since it was brought up.Date on it or show one like it And I'll gladly green check for this one But not on 4-H's cause it's not a match either.

OK great. A corkscrew only needs a twisted steel wire. It doesnt necessarily need a shaft but it needs to be ferrous.

Steel wire inside lead= YES!!!!

Green Check = NO!!!!!

Corkscrew= maybe.

Now we are getting somewhere again! To me it be like saying ok it's a button or it's a gun etc. But with out a pic of one or type of one or age of one what do you really know
I think we are to much a like Buddy we want all the answers and get frustrated when we can not get to the bottom line on it

 

[timekiller]

Its not a green check. It may not even be a corkscrew but it is a big step forward IMO for you to admit that something ferrous could have gone down the center. Thanks for putting up with me. Sometimes Ill dig deep into an item trying to get to the truth and I dont mean to be a jerk.

Sure enough Buddy but go back and read how many times I said wire yes shaft no before this.You act like I'm just now addmitting to it.And I don't change my post to fit the conversation going on.

 

[timekiller]

Its not a green check. It may not even be a corkscrew but it is a big step forward IMO for you to admit that something ferrous could have gone down the center. Thanks for putting up with me. Sometimes Ill dig deep into an item trying to get to the truth and I dont mean to be a jerk.

Sure enough Buddy but go back and read how many times I said wire yes shaft no before this.You act like I'm just now addmitting to it.And I don't change my post to fit the conversation going on.

Im talking about before that. I dont need to go back and read it. Dont you remember scratching the lead shaft insisting that it was only lead? Try rereading reply #34 thru #40.

Look under my avatar you will see a little clock that will tell the date that someone changes their posts. It often takes me a few minutes to get all my pictures, links and spelling posted correctly but I do NOT go back and change posts to make it fit and I resent the accusation..

All this bickering is ridiculous and unnecessary and makes us both look bad. There are no winners. I am willing to delete it all if it bothers you, but you need to delete yours as well.

I dont need to go back and read it. Dont you remember scratching the lead shaft insisting that it was only lead? Try rereading reply #34 thru #40.
I sure do and that was yesterday when we were still trying to figure it out!Also when i said it was lead that's what I meant as that is all that is left on either one.Nothing even left in side of it for a magnet to try and stick to tried that to(yesterday).No Iron inside left yes some signs of where iron was I guess but it will not stick to a magnet period.Nothing left other than some color of where something was.I say Wire!
All this bickering is ridiculous and unnecessary and makes us both look bad.
If I was worried about what I looked like on here I don't think I would be so Honest and tell my past as I have done in this post and others.I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE YOU GET WHAT I AM AS STRAIGHT AS IT CAN BE GIVEN. LIKE IT OR NOT.THAT'S UP TO THEM.CAN"T PLEASE EVERYBODY IN LIFE ANYWAY NO MATTER HOW NICE AND FAKE YOU ACT.
There are no winners.I'm not playing a game.I posted this to get answers and now has gone SOUTH for some reason.No there are no winning or losing.
Dont you remember scratching the lead shaft insisting that it was only lead? Try rereading reply #34 thru #40.
[/color]I sure do and still DO cause that is all that is left to the whole object no iron at all left OTHER then the color were it once was.
I resent the accusation..Same here when you say I'm not letting you know OR NOT ADMITTING IT HAD IRON.

 

[timekiller]

Thanks To Who have helped.
1) What did I learn the two lead things are corkscrews
2)How old
3)Who made them
4)What type of bottle were they used for
5)The star thing looks like the one 4-H posted
6)Do I think it's the same No
7)What is it
8)How old
9)What was it used for
10)That all of this is my faught and that I look Bad
Solved
Green Check
YOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo Damn right I done with it Happy to end it Here.
But I Really Do Thank those who have helped that I mean with all it's intention

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Its not a green check. It may not even be a corkscrew but it is a big step forward IMO for you to admit that something ferrous could have gone down the center. Thanks for putting up with me. Sometimes Ill dig deep into an item trying to get to the truth and I dont mean to be a jerk.

Sure enough Buddy but go back and read how many times I said wire yes shaft no before this.You act like I'm just now addmitting to it.And I don't change my post to fit the conversation going on.

Im talking about before that. I dont need to go back and read it. Dont you remember scratching the lead shaft insisting that it was only lead? Try rereading reply #34 thru #40.

Look under my avatar you will see a little clock that will tell the date that someone changes their posts. It often takes me a few minutes to get all my pictures, links and spelling posted correctly but I do NOT go back and change posts to make it fit and I resent the accusation..

All this bickering is ridiculous and unnecessary and makes us both look bad. There are no winners. I am willing to delete it all if it bothers you, but you need to delete yours as well.

I dont need to go back and read it. Dont you remember scratching the lead shaft insisting that it was only lead? Try rereading reply #34 thru #40.
I sure do and that was yesterday when we were still trying to figure it out!Also when i said it was lead that's what I meant as that is all that is left on either one.Nothing even left in side of it for a magnet to try and stick to tried that to(yesterday).No Iron inside left yes some signs of where iron was I guess but it will not stick to a magnet period.Nothing left other than some color of where something was.I say Wire!
All this bickering is ridiculous and unnecessary and makes us both look bad.
If I was worried about what I looked like on here I don't think I would be so Honest and tell my past as I have done in this post and others.I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE YOU GET WHAT I AM AS STRAIGHT AS IT CAN BE GIVEN. LIKE IT OR NOT.THAT'S UP TO THEM.CAN"T PLEASE EVERYBODY IN LIFE ANYWAY NO MATTER HOW NICE AND FAKE YOU ACT.
There are no winners.I'm not playing a game.I posted this to get answers and now has gone SOUTH for some reason.No there are no winning or losing.
Dont you remember scratching the lead shaft insisting that it was only lead? Try rereading reply #34 thru #40.
[/color]I sure do and still DO cause that is all that is left to the whole object no iron at all left OTHER then the color were it once was.
I resent the accusation..Same here when you say I'm not letting you know OR NOT ADMITTING IT HAD IRON.

Hahaha

 

[timekiller]

I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE YOU GET WHAT I AM AS STRAIGHT AS IT CAN BE GIVEN. LIKE IT OR NOT.THAT'S UP TO THEM.CAN"T PLEASE EVERYBODY IN LIFE ANYWAY NO MATTER HOW NICE AND FAKE YOU ACT.

Look timekiller. Im sorry you have a comprehensive problem. That explains why I cannot communicate with you. I dont have anything to hide either but I do care about TN and all this bickering does not look good for TN. I had to twist your arm backwards to get you to admit there was iron inside and the record speaks for itself... (which btw I offered to delete for your sake).

If you keep on with this ridiculous bickering you will give me no choice but to put you are ignore. Im really sorry I tried to help you. I apologize to TN for the bickering but I do not apologize to you because I did nothing wrong.

Bud I've got something I've got to go do right now.So the way I see you and I've tried to have respect for you but thats going out the window fast NOW.You must of been one of those kids who like to pick at sores or maybe through sticks&rocks at honet nest.But never got stung!So keep on messing with me now and it will be GAME ON!

 

[DCMatt]

Thanks To Who have helped.
1) What did I learn the two lead things are corkscrews
2)How old
3)Who made them
4)What type of bottle were they used for

For what it's worth...

I did some research on the corkscrew items. The "bell shaped" one is called a Walker's Bell corkscrew. The patent date is early 1890's. The Walker Bell was often used for promotional messages. I suspect yours is very early 1900's.

In my opinion, the fact that your corkscrew says Koreth (assuming Gasthof Koreth) and the Koerth is in Austria's wine country, your corkscrew is a souvenir wine bottle opener from the old and famous hotel.

DCMatt

 

[timekiller]

Thanks To Who have helped.
1) What did I learn the two lead things are corkscrews
2)How old
3)Who made them
4)What type of bottle were they used for

For what it's worth...

I did some research on the corkscrew items. The "bell shaped" one is called a Walker's Bell corkscrew. The patent date is early 1890's. The Walker Bell was often used for promotional messages. I suspect yours is very early 1900's.

In my opinion, the fact that your corkscrew says Koreth (assuming Gasthof Koreth) and the Koerth is in Austria's wine country, your corkscrew is a souvenir wine bottle opener from the old and famous hotel.

DCMatt

Thanks Very Much DCMatt,you lead me down another path and I found this.The one you show still has a steel bell.But this site I just found might explain it all.As were I found this stuff it would be better matched.Also have found enough early things that tell me the lead bell would be of a earlier date than 1900's I think.Thanks Again to you and all others!
History

Corks were used to seal bottles in the ancient Greek and Roman civilizations. Removing them was not difficult, however, because they extended above the rim of the bottleneck far enough to be grasped firmly. After the fall of Rome in the fifth century, cork bottle stoppers disappeared from use for a thousand years.

During the late sixteenth century, cork bottle stoppers reappeared as in England. Again, no special implement was required to remove them, since they were tapered in shape and protruded a comfortable distance from the vessel. Blown-glass bottles began to replace barrels and skins as wine storage vessels. The bottles consisted of a squatty chamber topped with a tapered neck. These "shaft and globe" bottles were sealed with tapered corks wrapped with waxed linen, making it easy to grasp and remove the stoppers.

Between the late seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, two developments proceeded simultaneously. It is unclear which was the cause and which was the effect. Manufacturers began mass-producing bottles of uniform size by pouring molten glass into molds rather than hand-blowing bottles one at a time. This manufacturing method allowed production of tall, slender bottles with straight sides and cylindrical necks. This shape of bottle could be laid on its side for storage and shipment, an advantage that boosted the international wine trade. Tighter seals were required so the bottles would not leak, a challenge solved with cylindrical corks that were compressed prior to being forced into the bottle necks. Because of their tighter fit, these corks were harder to remove than the earlier, tapered versions.

The parallel development was the invention and evolution of the corkscrew. It began with the adaptation of the gun worm, a long-handled, helix-tipped tool that could be inserted in the barrel of a musket or pistol to retrieve wadding and unspent bullets. The earliest written reference to a true corkscrew dates back to 1681. Until 1720, when the word "corkscrew" came into use, the tools were called bottlescrews. Bronze and iron were sometimes used to make the worm, but steel became more popular because of its greater strength and its ability to retain a sharp point.

During the early 1700s, pocket corkscrews became popular. A metal or wooden sheath covered the spiral, protecting the worm and the owner's pocket. In some models, the sheath could be inserted in a loop at the end of the worm's shaft to provide an effective T-handle for the corkscrew. During the latter half of the eighteenth century, corkscrews became increasingly elaborate, using materials like silver, gold, exotic woods, ivory, and jewels. Multipurpose tools often combined corkscrews with devices such as pipe tobacco tampers, nutmeg graters, seals, and folding pocket knives. Dainty corkscrews were produced to open small bottles containing perfumes and medicines, for corks were the preferred sealer for all types of bottles until cork-lined metal bottlecaps became popular 1890.


The first corkscrew patent was issued in England to Reverend Samuel Henshall in 1795. It was a simple, T-shaped device with a steel worm protruding perpendicularly from the center of a handle made of bone or wood. Like many corkscrews of that period, brush bristles extended from one end of the handle; the brush was used to clean dust and sealing wax from the cork before opening a bottle. The innovative feature of Henshall's design was a flat disk, or button, mounted on the shaft connecting the worm to the handle. This kept the worm from being screwed too far through the cork; it also established a firmer contact between the corkscrew and the cork, making it easier to pull out the cork.

In 1802, a more complex mechanical corkscrew was patented by British engineer Edward Thomason. A bell-shaped cylinder surrounded the worm; setting the bottom of the cylinder on the top of the bottleneck positioned the worm vertically above the center of the cork. After the spiral had completely penetrated the cork, continued turning of the handle pulled the cork out of the bottle. The user could then hold the corkscrew over a fingerbowl, turn the handle in reverse, and automatically eject the cork without soiling his or her fingers.

A flurry of inventive activity in the late 1800s produced many variations of corkscrews enhanced with levers, gears, springs, and secondary screws to raise the cork out of the bottle. In just over 100 years following the first patent, more than 350 corkscrews patents were granted in England and some 250 were awarded in the United States. One of the more prolific American inventors in the field was W. Rockwell Clough of New Jersey. In 1876, he developed a machine that could bend a single piece of wire into a complete corkscrew; at one end of the helix, the wire was twisted into a fingerloop handle. In a subsequent refinement, he added a wooden sheath so the corkscrew could be carried in a pocket. After the metal bottlecap became popular, he developed a bottlecap remover and attached it to the end of the sheath. Clough's company eventually produced an estimated one billion inexpensive corkscrews, many of which were advertisements with brand names imprinted on the sheath.



Around the end of the nineteenth century, British corkscrew maker Thomas Truelove used a forming machine to forge steel worms. A grooved mandrel (forming rod) was rotated with a hand crank while a red-hot steel rod was inserted through an eyelet. The pliable rod was drawn into the grooves of the mandrel, shaping it into a helix.

One of the more significant corkscrew inventions of the twentieth century was the Screwpull, patented by Texas engineer Herbert Allen in 1978. Placing the device on top of the bottle, the user simply pushes a lever down and then pulls it back up to effortlessly insert the worm and extract the cork.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I deleted all my ramblings except my first post. I apologize to timekiller and anyone that had to read this garbage.. Bickering only makes us all look bad. I should know better by now and I have no excuse for my actions. I have had some problems lately that may have contributed to my lack of patience and understanding.. Ill try to be a better member in the future.

 

[Silver Searcher]

It takes a Man to admit when he is wrong I take my hat of to you Big C

Sometimes we all get a bit to heated on here, and things can easily get outa control

Silver Searcher

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It takes a Man to admit when he is wrong I take my hat of to you Big C

Sometimes we all get a bit to heated on here, and things can easily get outa control

Silver Searcher

When 2 members argue, there is no right or wrong. All that anyone sees is the bickering. And the bickering is wrong. I am definitely wrong for bickering.

 

[intimer]

cy, you make a lot of good happen in the forums.
there's a wide variety of people in the world.
sentence structure is difficult and easily misunderstood.

i guess what i'm saying is; putting ones foot in ones mouth can be lasting or short lived.

[i know i have to work on what i write everyday. i hope to improve with time!]

we should all be in this for the long run.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Thats one of the reasons I modify so much. I write something and then I think 3 minutes later that it may be misunderstood and I try to modify it. Misunderstandings are common on online forums and I should have known better because I have seen it happen here many times before..

 

[timekiller]

Thats one of the reasons I modify so much. I write something and then I think 3 minutes later that it may be misunderstood and I try to modify it. Misunderstandings are common on online forums and I should have known better because I have seen it happen here many times before..

Big C,It's all good on this end! I wish we had not took the road we did as it does nothing for anyone.Makes my blood pressure go through the roof not what I need as I have a bad blood pressure already.Doctors have warn me already and have tried many meds. But they all make me so sick and light headed I don't take them.But I'm a tall guy who smokes cigs like a frieght train and have abused my body from past drug use so not really in my favor for good blood pressure anyway.And get easly aggetated so I'll admitt I'm wrong to.It is foolish for me to have gone on when I seen it was getting to that point but I think we all (men) have that side in us and some times it's hard to keep in check.It's our nature I believe.Most of us only know each other through this forum we don't know the real person behind the screen typing or other parts of there life and is something I think should be considered when talking/typing.I just always do my best to treat others the way I want to be treated.No I'm better than you crap or I've done this or I've done that.For me it's just a straight line I stay on until someone makes me deviate from it.Maybe I've made a little since and hope we can move on.As said BigC you spend alot of time tying to help others and that is A1 in my book as everyone needs help sometime or another in life! I know I have to many times to count.
Thanks for all the help All and hope we can move past this.
Reguards,
Pete

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

You seem like a good person Pete. I dont hold any grudge. I grew up arguing so maybe I cant help myself LOL. My Dad and I would yell at each other all day and forget all about it the next minute. To me its an everyday thing to bicker. Now he is ill and I need to go see him before he dies.

About the smoking. I quit a few years back but unfortunately it was too late. I wish I had known I was doing damage to my lungs. Working around dust and chemicals didnt help any. Now I am struggling to live a normal life and I dont know what my future holds.

I know you have heard it before but It may not be too late to quit.