Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[Oroblanco]

Treasure Seeker wrote

Between the Railroad tracks and the highway on the east side of the river

Hmm that doesn't exactly sound like the site of the Guevavi mission.

Treasure Seeker also wrote

Latitude: N 31.55111
N 31° 33' 4"
Longitude: W 111.05736
W 111° 3' 26.5"

Well to compare, the coordinates for the Guevavi mission are 31° 24' 36" North, 110° 54' 6" West so must not be the same site. However without some kinds of artifacts, it is not that easy to ID a set of ruins AS a mission, they could just be ruins of adobe buildings which were homes.

T.S.,

I hope you don't take our posts as trying to convince you that there is, or is not, any merit in what you are doing.

Many of us have had an interest in Jesuit treasure for decades. My own research goes back over 40-years,
I have discussed the subject with many knowledgeable scholars,treasure hunters and historians, including a well regarded professor of history from NAU in Flagstaff, who's special interest is in Mexican ethnohistory and the U.S.-Mexico borderlands. All of them, without exception, discount the possibilities of major Jesuit mining and treasures.

That's not to say it didn't happen, as Don Jose will tell you. As Roy will tell you......"Show me the ore", or treasure as the case may be.

Unfortunately, the contemporaneous accounts are available to show the "wealth" of each of the Jesuit Missions. Some were much better off than others, but that was a results of the abilities of the priest
rather than any rich gold mines.

Miners, prospectors and officials from Mexico City were all over the country and watched the missions to make sure nothing like that was going on. Obviously, there was some suspicion, as the soldiers were searching for such treasures during the expulsion. They found nothing, which is documented.

It takes considerable effort to look into Jesuit history, but it seems a no-brainer if you are going to search for their treasures. Beyond that, it's a fascinating trip through history.

Good luck,

Joe

I have to respectfully disagree, as we have argued this extensively on another thread it is not necessary to continue it here. I suggest you read the many posts in that thread, which may help you decide whether it is worth your time to pursue. Here is the link;
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,286969.0.html
The very fact that the Spanish authorities did do extensive searches for Jesuit treasures is an indicator that the authorities were convinced the treasures did exist. Also, according to the newspaper account Joe posted, the Tumacacori treasure was found and recovered by a Jesuit priest, and this is not the only report of treasures being recovered from Jesuit missions in the Americas. I do agree with Joe however, do your own research into this if you are serious about searching for treasure.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning Joe: Regarding Jesuit activies, etc., can you explain to me just why a simultaneous arrest order was in effect for the Jesuits?

As for the other, I am sitting on top of a rather interesting argument, the Jesuit mines of Tayopa.

Father Polzer, after denying Jesuit activities in mining, finally said grudgingly, "when you open up Tayopa I will come down and dance the first dance". I replied "I will happily buy new shoes for you", he laughed. Unfortunately, not too long after, he died in his sleep at Santa Barbara,Calif.

Oro, most of the missions, visite's, etc did have an underground chamber. Almost all of the Jesuit buildings on the clandestine route to Matamorros from North western Sonora had these chambers where the metal being transported was stored overnight. A no of these shipments were left underground when the order became effective.

Incidentally, these underground chambers also served as a hiding place in the event of an uprising, a prudent precaution when one is isolated and is surrounded by potentially rebellious Indians.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Somewhere in my files I have some data where a couple of Americans bought a twin box detector and headed for Sonora. In the ruins of a mission they found enough metal to load their pickup up various times. On the last trip the custom inspector noticed that the pickup was heavily loaded and investigated.

It was found that the camper was loaded with the contraband metal. The gov't recovered all of the metal and the mission was thoroughly searched, there was no more and official speculation was that it was loot buried during the 1910 revolution.

If they had had enough sense to not overload their pickup, they might have gotten away with it.

Personally, I will always believe that they had simply found one of the underground overnight storage chambers.

As for this article it will have to be catalogued as anecdotal until I can find the article, unless you had read it also.

 

[Treasure Seeker1312]

Treasure Seeker wrote

Between the Railroad tracks and the highway on the east side of the river

Hmm that doesn't exactly sound like the site of the Guevavi mission.

Treasure Seeker also wrote

Latitude: N 31.55111
N 31° 33' 4"
Longitude: W 111.05736
W 111° 3' 26.5"

Well to compare, the coordinates for the Guevavi mission are 31° 24' 36" North, 110° 54' 6" West so must not be the same site. However without some kinds of artifacts, it is not that easy to ID a set of ruins AS a mission, they could just be ruins of adobe buildings which were homes.

T.S.,

I hope you don't take our posts as trying to convince you that there is, or is not, any merit in what you are doing.

Many of us have had an interest in Jesuit treasure for decades. My own research goes back over 40-years,
I have discussed the subject with many knowledgeable scholars,treasure hunters and historians, including a well regarded professor of history from NAU in Flagstaff, who's special interest is in Mexican ethnohistory and the U.S.-Mexico borderlands. All of them, without exception, discount the possibilities of major Jesuit mining and treasures.

That's not to say it didn't happen, as Don Jose will tell you. As Roy will tell you......"Show me the ore", or treasure as the case may be.

Unfortunately, the contemporaneous accounts are available to show the "wealth" of each of the Jesuit Missions. Some were much better off than others, but that was a results of the abilities of the priest
rather than any rich gold mines.

Miners, prospectors and officials from Mexico City were all over the country and watched the missions to make sure nothing like that was going on. Obviously, there was some suspicion, as the soldiers were searching for such treasures during the expulsion. They found nothing, which is documented.

It takes considerable effort to look into Jesuit history, but it seems a no-brainer if you are going to search for their treasures. Beyond that, it's a fascinating trip through history.

Good luck,

Joe

I have to respectfully disagree, as we have argued this extensively on another thread it is not necessary to continue it here. I suggest you read the many posts in that thread, which may help you decide whether it is worth your time to pursue. Here is the link;
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,286969.0.html
The very fact that the Spanish authorities did do extensive searches for Jesuit treasures is an indicator that the authorities were convinced the treasures did exist. Also, according to the newspaper account Joe posted, the Tumacacori treasure was found and recovered by a Jesuit priest, and this is not the only report of treasures being recovered from Jesuit missions in the Americas. I do agree with Joe however, do your own research into this if you are serious about searching for treasure.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Treasure Seeker wrote

Between the Railroad tracks and the highway on the east side of the river

Hmm that doesn't exactly sound like the site of the Guevavi mission.

Treasure Seeker also wrote

Latitude: N 31.55111
N 31° 33' 4"
Longitude: W 111.05736
W 111° 3' 26.5"

Well to compare, the coordinates for the Guevavi mission are 31° 24' 36" North, 110° 54' 6" West so must not be the same site. However without some kinds of artifacts, it is not that easy to ID a set of ruins AS a mission, they could just be ruins of adobe buildings which were homes.

T.S.,

I hope you don't take our posts as trying to convince you that there is, or is not, any merit in what you are doing.

Many of us have had an interest in Jesuit treasure for decades. My own research goes back over 40-years,
I have discussed the subject with many knowledgeable scholars,treasure hunters and historians, including a well regarded professor of history from NAU in Flagstaff, who's special interest is in Mexican ethnohistory and the U.S.-Mexico borderlands. All of them, without exception, discount the possibilities of major Jesuit mining and treasures.

That's not to say it didn't happen, as Don Jose will tell you. As Roy will tell you......"Show me the ore", or treasure as the case may be.

Unfortunately, the contemporaneous accounts are available to show the "wealth" of each of the Jesuit Missions. Some were much better off than others, but that was a results of the abilities of the priest
rather than any rich gold mines.

Miners, prospectors and officials from Mexico City were all over the country and watched the missions to make sure nothing like that was going on. Obviously, there was some suspicion, as the soldiers were searching for such treasures during the expulsion. They found nothing, which is documented.

It takes considerable effort to look into Jesuit history, but it seems a no-brainer if you are going to search for their treasures. Beyond that, it's a fascinating trip through history.

Good luck,

Joe

I have to respectfully disagree, as we have argued this extensively on another thread it is not necessary to continue it here. I suggest you read the many posts in that thread, which may help you decide whether it is worth your time to pursue. Here is the link;
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,286969.0.html
The very fact that the Spanish authorities did do extensive searches for Jesuit treasures is an indicator that the authorities were convinced the treasures did exist. Also, according to the newspaper account Joe posted, the Tumacacori treasure was found and recovered by a Jesuit priest, and this is not the only report of treasures being recovered from Jesuit missions in the Americas. I do agree with Joe however, do your own research into this if you are serious about searching for treasure.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Thanks , It appears we were not to far of from the old mission according to your lat and long records given. It is written in kino Diaries when they 1st arrived or were there , There were about 40 to 50 houses built. This is probably what we found. I think we only thought it was the gravesite, because we saw the molina map on here. I want to thank you all for the advice about doing our own research and then decide. However I do Give a certain amount of respect and merit to the Th s That have been doing this alot longer than I have, as i believe their experience and wisdom of their trials and tribulations has to hold some value. Thanks To all Of You.

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose el Tropical Tramp wrote

Somewhere in my files I have some data where a couple of Americans bought a twin box detector and headed for Sonora. In the ruins of a mission they found enough metal to load their pickup up various times. On the last trip the custom inspector noticed that the pickup was heavily loaded and investigated.

It was found that the camper was loaded with the contraband metal. The gov't recovered all of the metal and the mission was thoroughly searched, there was no more and official speculation was that it was loot buried during the 1910 revolution.

If they had had enough sense to not overload their pickup, they might have gotten away with it.

Personally, I will always believe that they had simply found one of the underground overnight storage chambers.

As for this article it will have to be catalogued as anecdotal until I can find the article, unless you had read it also

No I don't recall ever reading of an incident like that - however it is pretty interesting! I wonder what became of the metals, presuming those found in the camper were seized, what about the rest which was previously smuggled? Hmm...
Oroblanco

PS - re: the Molina document, how can we ever judge whether it is genuine, when it is a copy of an original? The info purportedly ON it, was copied from the original, and if you ever saw MY hand-written notes you could have just as good an argument that it is 100% false when they are my copies of real originals. Now if we had the original document which the Molina doc is supposed to be a copy of, then we could have a valid debate about whether it is genuine or not.

 

[ghostdog]

random imfo,from my maps, their are probably at least a thousand+ hideing holes the Jesuits stashed valuables,from what is now the US down tothrough Mexico.They had outposts at water holes,Indian camps,of course missions{lost to history},there is more buried than has ever been found.If they were spied upon, they had spies on the spies.
Find the reminants of mission delores ,detect, and walkk away rich.

 

[Oroblanco]

Ghostdog wrote

random imfo,from my maps, their are probably at least a thousand+ hideing holes the Jesuits stashed valuables,from what is now the US down tothrough Mexico

Holy cow amigo - over 1000? Would you care to expand or expound on this, <more info please> thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

GD,

"Find the reminants of mission delores ,detect, and walkk away rich."

I assume you mean Mission Dolores. There was more than one. Are you referring to Kino's Nuestra Senora de los Dolores de Cosari?

Thanks in advance,

Joe

 

[ghostdog]

Oro and Cacti,
1- my copy of a map,drawn by Kino,shows the areas i described drawn up as more or less seperate districts,each district haveing a number of missions,waterholes,indian camps,small missionary outposts, and directional markers,like modern hiways have today.A mission might just be a small 1 room structure. So,plenty of these misssons are lost because they just melted into the ground overtime,or might have been destroyed by Indians. If you look at the larger picture so to speak,at least for a while the Jesuits probably had a very organized transportation system set up. Through the use of cattle and loyal Indians,they were able to move vast amounts of metal long distances,and spread the metal out in many vaults from their mineing camps.They may have used cattle drives as a ruse to also move and deposit the metal at the same time.
My opinion,copyrite,2010.
2-Yes, I am describeing Kino"mission Delores" at one time a very large rancho,with cattle,crops,and mission complex,now just a bunch of rubble on top of a view hill.

 

[cactusjumper]

GD,

Father Kino's "Dolores" Mission is located in the old settlement of Cosari. It's location is well known and marked by a small campo santo, which can be identified by the grave sites. For anyone wishing to visit the location of Nuestra Senora de los Dolores de Cosari, I will be happy to provide exact directions on request.

Father Kino chose the "Dolores" name, "On account of the noble picture of Nuestra Senora de los Dolores, which some months previously, in May, with his very Christian piety was given me by the excellent painter, Juan Correa....". As I have mentioned before, this is how many of the paintings as well as gold and silver church fixtures were acquired by the Jesuits. Kino was quite famous and had many rich benefactors.

Despite the polite gushing's of some of the mission's visitors (visitador, Antonio Leal), it was actually "A big church....curiously adorned and painted, made of adobe with a flat roof" (Father Velarde) "Ungraceful" was the impression given. Father Kino recognized that it was not his best effort, aesthetically, in building a church.

I can assure you the location has been well trod by treasure hunters through the years.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Back to the newspaper articles regarding the treasure being found, the current Tumacacori Mission wasn't rebuilt in its present location until 1822. What you see now is THAT mission. Before 1822, the mission foundations were at its' old location (which were still very evident in the 1860s by description). In the 1880s, if someone were to have dug under the mission wall, they would have found nothing but substrate. The mission as we see it now was built in 1822 by the Franciscans, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Jesuits.

The story of the lost mine that was found by two Mexicans was most likely the Opatas Silver Mine. I'm at work now, and don't have the exact measurements, but it could pass distance wise to fit the story. It was only a couple of leagues South of Tumacacori. It is now supposedly all worked out. It is a 20 foot vertical shaft with about a ninety foot horizontal drift. It was supposedly found by two Mexicans whose family had worked the mine. They worked what little was left until it was played out.

I promise you that the NPS (National Park Service) will do everything in its power to convince the world that no profitable mining took place North of the Planchas de Plata, and the Jesuits DEFINITELY didn't leave any treasures hidden! They do it for a very good reason though. Many missions have been almost destroyed by ignerint treasure hunters who have decoded some secret document or another. They dig holes under walls and destabilize them. Tear up foundations looking for that secret vault they know is right there. Not mentioning any names ........buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut........... it was advised here to just take your metal detector down to the Mission de los Dolores and walk away rich. People doing irresponsible things like that are the reason treasure hunters are hated by Archaeologists and Park Rangers. No wonder they go out of their ways (in most cases) to prevent our getting treasure trove and exploratory permits.

As far as the authenticity of the Molina Document and Map, I have several reasons to think they are authentic. A couple of them I am not at liberty to share.

As far as anybody else's beliefs, I don't care. You are free to believe anything you wish. But before you do:

1. Read BOTH the entire original story AND the NPS' reasons for not believing it. Look at both versions with a logical mind, and form your own opinions.

Best-Mike

 

[ghostdog]

Catusj, Thanks for your imputs,my maps are not with me at this time. I have no plans to go search Dolores,but for those that are close by or interested, go if you feel like it. A good place to search,is behind the original mission,for tunnels, going off in the direction of the old cattle pasture,or crop land. In Kinos time,plenty of treasure trains passed through the Dolores rancho. My guess,not all has been found.
Keep in mind,the most inocus building you locate,could have been a mission,and may contain a attached vault.
Other interesting treasure to find would be from the Gloria Pan Group.
El Perigio,Santa Magdalena,San Jose De Gloria Pan,also known as the Rain of Gold.Many millions of Gold pesetas,in gold bullion,are stored somewhere from these mines,may be buried under a deliberately blowed off mountain top.
gd luck in your searches

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Don't disagree with your reasoning for the NPS stories, but that does not make them false.

In 1767 the Spanish search for Jesuit treasure was a complete waste of time and turned up NOTHING! In the ensuing 243 years, despite keen interest, NOTHING has been found in the way of Jesuit treasure, despite the fraudulent claims to the contrary. IMHO, the future will be no different than the past.

Maps, letters, artifacts and treasures, have never been available for authentication.......NEVER! For any decent treasure hunter, that should be a huge clue. On the other hand, during that entire 243 year period, there may have been good and reasonable explanations for that.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
The document in question is a fake, whether it's purportedly the original document or a copy of the original document. Think about it for a minute, everyone. If someone copied an original document, word for word, why did that person change all of the modern numerals into archaic Roman numerals? It just doesn't make any sense if one were to think about it LOGICALLY. Most people CAN'T readily change modern numerals into Roman numerals without errors. Also, the Roman numerals themselves tell me that the document was penned less than 100 years ago, because of how the actual numbers are represented.

However, if anyone just WANTS to believe it, then go ahead and be my guest. All the belief in the world won't change the status of the document, but what's the harm in wishful thinking?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Afternoon Lamar my friend: I have papers on the Tayopa complex that will definitely argue against that theory, but I will not post them until I have all of the archaeological etc permits.

As for penmanship, I have pages and pages of my personal notes which I cannot decipher myself sniff. Maybe Beth with her patience and ability can. I talk too damn fast, the same with my penmanship. the words just never seem to get out, it takes sooo long, the same for putting data down on paper.

I am infamous for my typing booboos when I don't have time to correct them.

Sooo Yes, I do know about human failings in copying documents, plus most do not try to copy precisely word for word, but just what they deem as most important.


Oro, regarding that recovery, the gov't recovered all of it, and returned it to Mexico. They hadn't tried to dispose of any of it.

They were faced with multiple felony charges on both sides of the Border, including exporting large quantities of precious metal from Mexico with out the appropriate export permit and paying the taxes, importing the same into the US without an import permit, failure to declare it and paying US taxes. disturbing a historical site etc. etc.

I have no idea how it ended. However this should suggest something to those that have suggested that I just fill a truck up and haul for the Border, assuming that I could evade the Narco boys on the back roads.

Nope, I have to wait for the permits, no matter how long it takes before I can think of opening up the main workings of TAYOPA, or any of the deposits. Since I only have about 50 more years I hope that they move, sigh.

Of course, there is the possibility of picking up a bit of pocket change---. heheehehhe

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

Back to the newspaper articles regarding the treasure being found, the current Tumacacori Mission wasn't rebuilt in its present location until 1822. What you see now is THAT mission

The article doesn't specify exactly what location the mission was, however this news item was picked up by several newspapers around the country and some carried more details. The Brooklyn Eagle tells us where the priest went;

"After obtaining the necessary information the Jesuit priest gathered together a party of trusted men and followed the trail to the Tumacacori mission, situated well up in the mountains.

After the arrival of the treasure seekers at the mission the queer looking bundle of the Jesuit was again opened and the Spanish lines were again scanned for a more definite description as to where the treasure was hidden. Following the directions the party proceeded to the little mission church and the floor of the church, which was of huge blocks of granite, was taken up. Underneath the floor was an aperture which led to the main chamber, which was a large roomy place with a low ceiling with walls covered with dust and festooned with cobwebs. In the center of this chamber was a well defined elevation of the sandy floor, as if though the lapse of time the sand had drifted above some shelves or boxes. The sand was removed and beneath were metallic boxes. These were raised to the surface and the contents tipped out on the floor. Six of these boxes were taken out and the silver was found securely packed in the rotten deerskin bags. Here was wealth enough to satisfy the wildest dreams of avarice.

The wily priest loaded his treasure on to pack mules, and going back to Tucson disposed of a portion of the wealth. Consulting his chart again to find the mine from which the silver ore was taken a number of prospectors started out to find the treasure. To make a long story short they never succeeded. After considerable search the mine was given up, as the priest had to return to Spain."
<From Brooklyn Eagle; Date: Sep 12, 1891; Page: 2 >

Now this is just my opinion, but it doesn't sound like the Franciscan mission currently at Tumacacori to me.

Gollum also wrote

The story of the lost mine that was found by two Mexicans was most likely the Opatas Silver Mine

I don't know why you would conclude that, based on the scant information in that particular article, the Brooklyn Eagle version is not much more helpful in pinning down the site either but I would not ID this mine with the Opata based on the little info we have.

Cactusjumper wrote

In 1767 the Spanish search for Jesuit treasure was a complete waste of time and turned up NOTHING! In the ensuing 243 years, despite keen interest, NOTHING has been found in the way of Jesuit treasure, despite the fraudulent claims to the contrary. IMHO, the future will be no different than the past.

Maps, letters, artifacts and treasures, have never been available for authentication.......NEVER!

The Spanish search in 1767 did turn up that the Jesuits owned a lot of land, huge herds of cattle, sheep, mules and several mines. The authorities in European countries found the Jesuits to be in possession of quite impressive amounts of money when the Jesuits were suppressed in 1773. There have been reports of Jesuit treasures found and recovered several different times in different places since 1767, but no one has ever brought forward what they found to have it authenticated - why would someone do that, in earlier times? Today we might think that to be the logical next step when a discovery is made, but in 1897 do you think that was what anyone would do?

Cactusjumper also wrote

For any decent treasure hunter, that should be a huge clue.

I guess that I am not a "decent" treasure hunter.

Lamar wrote

Dear group;
The document in question is a fake, whether it's purportedly the original document or a copy of the original document.

I respectfully disagree, you cannot judge whether a hand-written COPY is "real" or not. We do not know whether the copyist was simply copying the Roman numerals or swapping them; we do not know a thing about what the copyist chose to write down. It is not possible to judge if a COPY is real or not, unless it is supposed to be an exact copy of an original and I doubt this would be the case. I have not tried to make exact duplicates when I make handwritten copies of something - who does? As our amigo Real de Tayopa said, we write down what we think to be important.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening ghost dog my friend: You posted --> Other interesting treasure to find would be from the Gloria Pan Group.
*************

The Gloria pan lies north of the Rio Fuerte in Chihuahua on the Balajaque arroyo.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,290552.0.html

What do you want to know Ghost? I was in there on my mule alone in the late 50's & early 60's. Tubares was abandoned then. I had to locate it in order to provide enough proof to continue on the Tayopa search. The same for La Tarasca, Las Pimas & Las Placers de Tepoca. I can take you to any of them, but not the actual portal. The southern 5 of the golden Triangle 7.

The "Rain of Gold " mine is the LLuvia De Oro. I had part interest in it with the Molino bros from Cuatemoc. Chih. they let it go for taxes while I was in the US. No, I didn't shoot them, but the thought did cross my mind.

Side thingie, La Gloria Pan mine was also called 'La Mina de Peligro', sounds close to your 'El Perigio' ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I wrote:

"Maps, letters, artifacts and treasures, have never been available for authentication.......NEVER! For any decent treasure hunter, that should be a huge clue."

For people who spend their lives sifting through clues, that many people would consider minutia, I should think the above facts would be a huge clue. Is it, at least, a bump in the road for you? I believe that most of the great finds in the treasure hunting community have been submitted for authentication.

A way to check that out is to see how many "finds" have been confirmed frauds.

It all raised a small red flag for me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I wrote:

"Maps, letters, artifacts and treasures, have never been available for authentication.......NEVER! For any decent treasure hunter, that should be a huge clue."

For people who spend their lives sifting through clues, that many people would consider minutia, I should think the above facts would be a huge clue. Is it, at least, a bump in the road for you? I believe that most of the great finds in the treasure hunting community have been submitted for authentication.

A way to check that out is to see how many "finds" have been confirmed frauds.

It all raised a small red flag for me.

Take care,

Joe

Haven't we been down this road before? <Jesuit Treasures Are They Real? http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,286969.0.html> I believe I answered this question before, and yes at one point I was actively online arguing against any existence of Jesuit treasures/mines etc. In my opinion, for this position to be true, there must be no evidence, and as covered in that other thread, there is <though you apparently dismiss all as weak and speculation> hence my view. As you have stated, facts get 'changed' almost every day, so the truth of the matter could be changed tomorrow.

I would also point out that in the newspaper article cited (it was run in other newspapers as well, with slight variations in the amount of detail rather than factual differences) it was a Jesuit priest whom recovered the treasure; do you think that a Jesuit priest would be likely to bring forward Jesuit treasure to have it authenticated? I kind of doubt that.

In that other thread, I also said that I was willing to let this subject drop, without convincing you of anything. Virtually any historian TODAY will agree with you that there never were any Jesuit treasures or mines, however that position is a modern development. With most treasure stories, the oldest sources tend to be the most accurate. I would point out that in this case, most older sources do not agree that there never were any Jesuit treasures or mines.

I won't try to say that I have 'no dog in the fight' and yes my opinion has changed polarity on the issue several times; I even did an article on a lost Jesuit mine with a sort of 'treasure' in it, back in Oct of 1998, <http://www.losttreasure.com/content/archives/jesuit-silver-la-purisma-concepcion ...so I do have to 'defend' that position even though only a short time after it was published, I was about convinced that I had been 100% in error about it being Jesuit; today I don't have doubts about the original owner-operators being Jesuits, though probably lay brothers.

To TRY to tie this back in to our topic, has anyone here ever visited the archive where the original "Molina Document" was purportedly copied? Thank you in advance,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Joe,

First of all, you have only as far as my avatar to go to see an authentic find. Eighty-Two Pounds of gold ingots that fetched almost $500K in 1986.

I know the finder to this day who lives in Tucson. He, his brother and two close friends. While you don't know the man, I don't expect you to just lay down and believe the story. That is fine. As much as we have corresponded, you have NEVER known me to fabricate anything. I know for a fact the man did not have the werewithall to fake 82 pounds of gold bars. Granted, 30 years of searching for a $125,000 payoff is not a good return on investment (unless all the searching was just done part time).

Another find that I firmly believe to be authentic was Chuck Kenworthy's 1,028 silver bars. Over a ton of silver from the same hole, all cast the same. The main reason I believe it was the fact that he never sought to publicize the find. Just like the trunk of bonanza gold ore he showed my friend.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

T.S.,

If I were going to search for the original location of San Cayetano del Tumacacori, I would look very close to the area I have marked on this map. It may be that I have placed it too far to the west, and the actual location is on the east side of Pendleton Road, but the site will be on "a flat terrace overlooking Josephine Canyon".

One other point: Whoever made up that story about the priest and Tumacacori, knew nothing about the mission's history. Despite that, it is still being repeated, as if some kind of evidence, today.

Good Luck,

Joe