Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[lgadbois]

I'm with Gollum on this one. I could spend an hour or more tearing apart the posting by RWLJ, but what would be the point?

We don't need more blather consisting of undocumented fireside tales. The fugitive? Give me a break! If you know the man's name, use it. Who do you mean by the Dutchman? Possibly helped by the lady?

And RWLJ, I don't care if you discovered the President's Bathroom! Your tales of Jerusalem and your Jesuit ancestors might be interesting in their own context, but they don't apply to this topic.

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

I agree, too.

I'm pretty sure that the place I referred to IS indeed the place he was talking about, and it is definitely NOT the Dutchman. Not even close.

B

 

[Treasure Seeker1312]

Hey Everyone,I am a newbee- I have been reading the post- And Enjoy allot of them.
I Was down in the area in 2005 and although dont Know much about the mine of Tumaaccori, but am confused about the location of the 1st mission.

We went to the current mission where the tummaccori now is and curators (which we believed to be historians, told us the original mission was to the south and not the East. The post here say its at the mine site. Not sure who is correct.
Notice allot of contoversy here on this forum-
It would be a cool thing if everyone really try to decipher Facts from fiction - To See what is real and whats not.
For instance not questioning the location of the mine and Cool Map by the way. I enjoy the picture of the cross on the cliff side-. But am wondering If that was an origional Marker, or did someone else put it there before the person who took the picture ever located the area for The 1st time.

Although it does seem to Fit the description of the much contriversial Molina document post on here which I took the liberty of copy and pasting into the online translation website Known as Babelfish.
Here is what I got back

Redotero - year MDXCVIII - MDCLVIII - this Redotero belongs to Temacacury: the Mine of Temacacury called Vigen d. Guadalupe. This one legua medina comensando of the Greater door from the Temple to Mr. and of water of San Roman measures to Left-hand side M. eight hundred Vrs to the N. and like CCDTD vrs. before arriving at the mine macada with chisel with these marks below the stone is a black stone (picture of inscription) of this the Treasure this means the letters, and like a XX. - Vrs of the Stone advanced, this a small monument course to Mr. the P.te of the Mine there are two peaks that were derrunbados on the Mine without but avada that put the Powder in splits of stones, I am hueya erased for always happening through over stones is not known where - this east place within the Mine this a patio that measures L. Vrs in picture and this place this the Treasure of our Missions. In the middle of " " this the mouth of the Mine inside and outside I am the Treasure: MMDCL estan. Crgs. of Sealed silver and DCCCCV. of gold and silver that are XL. million. the gold was traido of the Siera de Guachapa of sercanias of Tubaca: you follow adalante in the same direcion of the South.) Like a III. Leguas of the Mine of nestra Mrs of Guadalupe is I. Port that is called of the Janos course to the S. of leaves I here. I coil and ends to the River of Sta. Cross, the Mine this to sinestra of the Port under the Port there is XII. Drays and XII. Patios. The mine has I. three Barrel of cientas Vrs. of length and the barrel it has the name of the Puricima Conception you burden, with chisel the Barrel runs to the N. and XX. Vrs. it has I. Tonelito of one hundred Varas, to the PTE the metal is yellow metal that has mita of silver and fifth part of gold are seniceros fifty Vrs. of the door from the Mine to the course of the N. encontranron plates of virgin silver from a pound hata V.@s this Mine this woman who hides herself with mantel with a copper door has enormas large doorknockers this copper was traido of the Mountain range of Guachapa of cercanillas of fused Tubaca and in Toma= =cacury and has taken the Prta. In I. Dray, with You dent to the Mine. Year MDXLVIII. work and I cover myself in - MDCXLVIII as it marks the book of the work of the mission. Of the Mine of the Purima Conception to Mine d. Nera. Mrs of Guadalupe is III. leguas like a mita of way a. the same direction this the called Mine of the Opates - this has I barrel of cuatro= =cinetas Vrs. and to the S. in the same direction the metals are calichosos and from trescietas Vrs. it cut with cajadora and of the mouth of the Mine it runs u. very long table for the exit of the Sun next to the PTE. very great Gun is I. and has a large drill mark. Qu. It has average Vra. of ondura alongside stopping itself of the South. The mark is seen the other side of the gun course to the N. of this mark is I. Legua to the Mine of Opates de Tomacacury. this mak. for PTE. to the other side of the Mountain range this the mine of Ntra. Mrs of Guadpe this marking by P.S. R. the XII of the month of Dcbr. of MDXVIII. Eta was allada Mine by mine

By the way we found old ruins south of current mission on east side of santa cruz river along the banks, dont know if this was related. thought it to be a gravesite but not sure.

Any Friendly advice or collaborative effort on here about more about -mines true entrance would be nice to see. Instead of Arguments - Perhaps this forum could reveal the truth to the world- For Historical value- I know we would like to have all the Bullion, But Do you honestly think that ione or 2 people could spend it all-

P.S. Well Versed on Dangers Of finding a big Treasure, but what If It Were Found By a large group Of people. Like in This Forum

i. am sure to get a few bad replies I know, But I like most people would like to Know the True Story
and I am well aware there are alot of Mines in The area.

Thanks For Letting Me Post

Treasure Seeker1312- Only Seeking The truth.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo Treasure Seeker1312 and welcome to Treasurenet!

I suspect that the mission ruins you found to the south of Tumacacori are likely the Guevavi mission. It is south of T and E of the river, nothing much left but some crumbling adobe walls and a "protected site" so don't start digging around it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Los_Santos_Ángeles_de_Guevavi

Just my opinion but I have doubts that there is any treasure left IN the Tumacacori treasure vault. There was a report of it being cleaned out in the 1800's by a Jesuit priest who had a map to find it, carried out the bullion on mules. Our Jesuit apologists will most certainly deny this ever happened, but it is on the record.

Good luck and good hunting amigo (and everyone) I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"There was a report of it being cleaned out in the 1800's by a Jesuit priest who had a map to find it, carried out the bullion on mules."

Can you site the source for that report?

T.S.

Welcome to TNet.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good evening treasure seeker: You would 'never' have any success with that Babel translation, sheesh. If you talk nicely to Gullum, or Los Oros, they might post some of the 'corrections' from the basic document translated by the park service etc etc.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

"There was a report of it being cleaned out in the 1800's by a Jesuit priest who had a map to find it, carried out the bullion on mules."

Can you site the source for that report?

T.S.

Welcome to TNet.

Take care,

Joe

Sure - Arizona Republican, Sunday Oct 4th, 1891, pp 1 col 3

Actually I am a bit surprised that you hadn't seen it, as the date is in that interesting "range" of time - Jacob died on Oct 25th of the same year, and this is how I ran across the article while researching Waltz, Julia etc for any mentions in the AZ newspapers. Maybe you have run across it, but didn't take notice?

I don't mean to be the 'wet blanket' about this, who knows what is still buried; however it may well have been found and recovered, in which case a hunt for this treasure would be a waste of time.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy

 

[Treasure Seeker1312]

Hola amigo Treasure Seeker1312 and welcome to Treasurenet!

I suspect that the mission ruins you found to the south of Tumacacori are likely the Guevavi mission. It is south of T and E of the river, nothing much left but some crumbling adobe walls and a "protected site" so don't start digging around it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Los_Santos_Ángeles_de_Guevavi

Just my opinion but I have doubts that there is any treasure left IN the Tumacacori treasure vault. There was a report of it being cleaned out in the 1800's by a Jesuit priest who had a map to find it, carried out the bullion on mules. Our Jesuit apologists will most certainly deny this ever happened, but it is on the record.

Good luck and good hunting amigo (and everyone) I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Thank You for your Quick response and to all on here who responded to my post and the welcome and everything. As You Know there is always controversy over a mines location. or what it holds or an interpetation of A marker Or Map or document, I have heard controversy about the mine being to the west or the ease of the mission, and i for one, believe it to be to the east as as this forum shows.
I hope Each Member on here will be point out truths about things, which will add To the validity of things for us newbies as well as the rest of the world. Once again Thank You For The education. I will be sure to seek answers from this forum in the Future.

Treasure Seeker 1312

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Roy,

I have read the story, once from Joseph Miller's "The Arizona Story", and I have the newspaper article as well. The Miller version is not exact, but of course the Republican's is an accurate rendition of the story.

Here is the article, as best I could present it:

The story, IMHO, has a lot of wriggle room for believability.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

T.S.,

I fear fact and fiction have a way of blending together over time. The more time, the more blending.

The weight of evidence that I have seen points to San Cayetano De Tumacacori being located on the east side of the Rio de Santa Maria or Santa Cruz River as it is called today........or the west side. During Kino's life, it was Santa Maria. That is one of the problems with the "Molina Document".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Roy,

I have read the story, once from Joseph Miller's "The Arizona Story", and I have the newspaper article as well. The Miller version is not exact, but of course the Republican's is an accurate rendition of the story.
....<snip>.......
Here is the article, The story, IMHO, has a lot of wriggle room for believability.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,
Thank you for posting it, we do have a scanner-printer (a Kodak, used exactly 3 times before arriving at the current non-functional condition) and one of these nights I will try to get it working again.

I am surprised that you did not remember it when I first mentioned it, so you really were just baiting to see if I was just making it up right? I respectfully disagree about the 'wriggle wroom' believability factor, but we all have our opinions. If the article is true, (and I have seen nothing that refutes it specifically) then the Tumacacori treasure was removed a century ago and a debate over the Molina document is moot.
_________________________________________________

Treasure Seeker1312
There were of course other missions besides Tumacacori, so it is reasonable to consider that if one mission had a treasure vault (like so many South and Central American churches had) it is quite possible that other missions likewise had vaults or underground storage chambers where "treasures" could be stored safely, in times of emergency. While Kino himself hid the church ornaments (in our terms SILVER) in a cave during the 1695 revolt, it is unlikely that there are such handy-dandy caves close by all the missions. It is also possible that later (as in Franciscan) treasures may be hidden in southern Arizona, but we have less information on them.

Sifting out facts from fiction is a necessary evil in treasure hunting, and don't take the word of anyone here as the "gospel" or final word on anything and that includes me - do your own research, by all means share what you are comfortable with and ask questions but check it out for yourself and make your own conclusions. In other words, don't quit just because someone on a treasure forum says there is no treasure, look into it before deciding.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"I am surprised that you did not remember it when I first mentioned it, so you really were just baiting to see if I was just making it up right?"

I ask for sources for many reasons. Most stories sound familiar to me, but many are just dim memories. I know I have the material, but require serious jogging of the brain cells to remember, specifically, where I might find it. Once you mentioned the Republican I knew where
to look. You may call it "baiting" if you wish, I would call it.....mental bird dogging.

There are two stories of Tumacacori Mission gold/mines to be found, in Miller's "The Arizona Story". They are located on pages 178 & 179. I have two of his books, and the stories are compiled from old newspaper accounts, for the most part. My copy of the book is inscribed and signed below a beautiful pen line drawing of desert mountains and sky by Ross Santee, who drew all of the pictures in the book.

I never thought you were making the story up. Sorry if I gave that impression.

Take care, and thanks,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
The document in question is without a doubt a fake. I didn't even read the entire article to realize that the document is false. First, nobody wrote in Roman block letters. Nobody COULD write in Roman block letters because it simply wasn't taught in the schools. Everything which was written until at least the last century was done so in flowing script, without exception. It was only when the typewriter became popular that penmanship skills began to include Roman block lettering. In fact, when I was in elementary school, we were still being taught flowing script. Within a year or two, students behind me began learning how to write in Roman block letters first because it was perceived as being *easier*.

Also, all lines of text were written using a wooden ruler-like device as a guide. The wooden guide would have notches in it at equal intervals, corresponding to roughly one-half inch increments and these were used to guage the correct line spacings for the size of the paper in question. First, the lines would be *drawn* onto the sheet of paper using the guide and a dry quill nib. The lines would be indented into the surface of the paper without leaving a lasting impression upon the sheet. Also the use of Roman numerals is another dead give away that the document is false. Nobody used Roman numerals back then because nobody was taught to decipher the meanings of the letters, therefore nobody was ABLE to write numerals using the Roman numeral system.

Also, there are some words which are not part of the Spanish language, rather they derived from the local Mexican dialects. All Spanish colonists were taught the proper Spanish of Spain and they were also taught correct spelling rules, which are actually not that difficult to understand in comparison to English spelling rules. For example, *Tumacocory*. A colonist would have known simply by hearing the word that the name ends in I and not Y. A native Spanish speaker would realize that the Y is NOT a vowel and cannot be used in place of a vowel except for assimilated foreign words. In light of this fact, the person that wrote the document was most likely an English-speaking American who incorrectly assumed the pronunciation to be Two Ma Coe Cor EYE, which is how it would be pronounced in English. He therefore assumed the last vocal sound to be represented by a Y, as in FRY or FLY. He obviously did not realize that in Spanish the I vowel is represented as a long E sound.

I didn't get any further than this, because it's entirely unnecessary to waste more time on it.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Lamar,

In this topic all of the reasons for the document being a hoax have been presented in the fifth post by Gollum. The reasons already given, have always been enough for me.

I agree with you completely.

Hope all is well,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Hi Lamar,

In this topic all of the reasons for the document being a hoax have been presented in the fifth post by Gollum. The reasons already given, have always been enough for me.

I agree with you completely.

Hope all is well,

Joe

Dear Cactusjumper;
I must confess that I didn't even take the time to read past the first post in the topic. I looked at the photo of the document and realized right away that it cannot possible be any more than a poorly executed fake.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I never thought you were making the story up. Sorry if I gave that impression

No apols needed, if I were really offended I would not have included the smiley! Besides, I didn't even have to look hard, it is in the box of LDM materials that Beth dug out of the truck a while ago, kind of surprising how much of what we had a fair amount of trouble to "dig up" that is today readily available in several books and online. Who said the old days were the "good old days" - heck it is way easier today to research.

Hola Lamar!
Roy

 

[Treasure Seeker1312]

Hi Roy,

I have read the story, once from Joseph Miller's "The Arizona Story", and I have the newspaper article as well. The Miller version is not exact, but of course the Republican's is an accurate rendition of the story.
....<snip>.......
Here is the article, The story, IMHO, has a lot of wriggle room for believability.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,
Thank you for posting it, we do have a scanner-printer (a Kodak, used exactly 3 times before arriving at the current non-functional condition) and one of these nights I will try to get it working again.

I am surprised that you did not remember it when I first mentioned it, so you really were just baiting to see if I was just making it up right? I respectfully disagree about the 'wriggle wroom' believability factor, but we all have our opinions. If the article is true, (and I have seen nothing that refutes it specifically) then the Tumacacori treasure was removed a century ago and a debate over the Molina document is moot.
_________________________________________________

Treasure Seeker1312
There were of course other missions besides Tumacacori, so it is reasonable to consider that if one mission had a treasure vault (like so many South and Central American churches had) it is quite possible that other missions likewise had vaults or underground storage chambers where "treasures" could be stored safely, in times of emergency. While Kino himself hid the church ornaments (in our terms SILVER) in a cave during the 1695 revolt, it is unlikely that there are such handy-dandy caves close by all the missions. It is also possible that later (as in Franciscan) treasures may be hidden in southern Arizona, but we have less information on them.

Sifting out facts from fiction is a necessary evil in treasure hunting, and don't take the word of anyone here as the "gospel" or final word on anything and that includes me - do your own research, by all means share what you are comfortable with and ask questions but check it out for yourself and make your own conclusions. In other words, don't quit just because someone on a treasure forum says there is no treasure, look into it before deciding.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Dear Oroblanco (Roy)

Thanks for the advice, As you stated above, It is possible the Jesuits priest and others hid treasure in more then 1 Place.

In 2005 when we went down to the T. We Really Did think we were at the old grave site, because It did not sit to far off the highway and to the east was a community, There were all kinds of warning signs. I,e Dead cow skulls,poisen signs, barrels. the site was Between the Railroad tracks and the highway on the east side of the river. I don,t think it was the site you had mentioned. Not Sure!

However, It was to our thinking,.That seens how there were alot of attacks, by the Indians according to Father Kinos diaries, ( Favores de Celeste) and perhaps bad Conquistadors as well as the military comming and going, It was our thought why not bury some treasure in a place to be considered taboo or sacred by all. The gravesite or Near it.

For alot of reasons, we did not do much hunting, because, we knew others had been there before. Because of the Location. We figured as you said, the site was protected, either by the railroad, the state, the church , whom ever. We did get some really good reads with our metal detectores, But we did not want to Raise Suspicion , so we left.

This location can be seen by satellight imaging on tera server- Just south of the mission a couple miles and north of a concrete structure on the highway ,which we believed to be the border Guard station on right side as you look at the image, Just above 1st crossing to the right in the trees about 1/2 mile up.Betwen 1st big field opening on right and highway on left. If you are interested in seeing where I am talking about.

Once again thanks for the advice and good luck to all

This link is as close as i can get anyone.

http://www.terraserver.com/view.asp...oj=32612&pic=img&prov=-1&stac=-1&ovrl=-1&vic=

When zoomed in you see highway comes to a diamond shape , Just south of diamond on right side you see a crossover road to right to other farmland. directly above crossing along river in trees. look for the tallest tree and you will find site in that area.

Latitude: N 31.55111
N 31° 33' 4"
Longitude: W 111.05736
W 111° 3' 26.5"

 

[cactusjumper]

T.S.,

I hope you don't take our posts as trying to convince you that there is, or is not, any merit in what you are doing.

Many of us have had an interest in Jesuit treasure for decades. My own research goes back over 40-years,
I have discussed the subject with many knowledgeable scholars,treasure hunters and historians, including a well regarded professor of history from NAU in Flagstaff, who's special interest is in Mexican ethnohistory and the U.S.-Mexico borderlands. All of them, without exception, discount the possibilities of major Jesuit mining and treasures.

That's not to say it didn't happen, as Don Jose will tell you. As Roy will tell you......"Show me the ore", or treasure as the case may be.

Unfortunately, the contemporaneous accounts are available to show the "wealth" of each of the Jesuit Missions. Some were much better off than others, but that was a results of the abilities of the priest
rather than any rich gold mines.

Miners, prospectors and officials from Mexico City were all over the country and watched the missions to make sure nothing like that was going on. Obviously, there was some suspicion, as the soldiers were searching for such treasures during the expulsion. They found nothing, which is documented.

It takes considerable effort to look into Jesuit history, but it seems a no-brainer if you are going to search for their treasures. Beyond that, it's a fascinating trip through history.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

T.S.,

Further clarification as to the original location can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumacácori_National_Historical_Park

This is the pertinent part:

San Cayetano del Tumacácori Mission was established in 1691 by Father Eusebio Francisco Kino. It was established one day before the Guevavi Mission, making it the oldest Jesuit mission site in southern Arizona. The mission was originally called San Cayetano del Tumacácori and was located in a different location than the National Monument. It was established at an extant native O'odham or Sobaipuri settlement on the east side of the river. The location of this Sobaipuri settlement and the original place visited by Kino has been identified by archaeologist Deni Seymour who excavated and reported on the original San Cayetano del Tumacacori mission site, revising the earlier opinions of Charles Di Peso as to where this settlement was located.

After the Pima rebellion of 1751, the mission was moved to the present site on the west side of the Santa Cruz river and renamed San José de Tumacácori. By 1848, the mission was abandoned and began falling into severe disrepair. Preservation and stabilization efforts began in 1908 when the area was declared a National Monument by President Theodore Roosevelt and continue today.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening Lamar my friend: I am afraid I will take issue with you on the Molino document. Most of the people of that period were effectively uneducated, only the elite or richer families could afford that. As for the outlying areas, they relied upon the traveling teachers, who were the poorer ones that couldn't find, or qualify for work in the cities.

As a result, most could not write in the nice flowing script and sentence construction that you mentioned. Also not mentioned, is the distinct possibility that the document was copied later in the copier's own level of writing..

My father in law always said "Ya me fui" when leaving.

I have some older, handwritten, documents that indicate that the writer was barely literate.

So I am not convinced that the document is not a true copy, later interpretation of the original one, or even the original based upon your post..

Don Jose de La Mancha