Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[Shortfinger]

Arizona somewhere? Or maybe Mexico?

JB

 

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[Real of Tayopa]

Hpw about a reprint of the document in Spanish ?

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Oro . How are you ?

To complete the VdG mine scene , I want to show you what represents the black like cave marking beside the VdG mine in the charts/maps which are floating around .
And I am talking about these markings :

View attachment 1407174 View attachment 1407175

I want to say how this marking represents the shape/landmark on where the VdG mine is situated .The mine is about in the middle of this landmark . So , here are the GE images which confirm my statement :

View attachment 1407176 View attachment 1407177 View attachment 1407178

Fascinating eh ?

It could be, if we had the measurements to other landmarks from the Molina "map". Also, not to be a stick in the mud but what exactly are we looking at, in those photos? I can hardly tell what it is, nor how large it is. Is it the size of a football (soccer) field, a washtub, or a mouse-hole? Why do you think the marking on the Molina "map" is intended to look like the mine, when they had no satellites to be snapping photos? If the "map" maker DID have use of satellite photos, then the Molina chart was really made at least no earlier than the 1950s, which as you know is two centuries too late to be genuine.

Also, the fact that the measurements do not match the written text, can just as easily be proof that the chart is wrong or false. Do you see what I mean there? It could mean that the written description is wrong or false, OR it could mean that the chart ("map") is wrong or false, we can not establish which is the case without finding the actual mines and other landmarks. So far, for at least the last fifty years, no one has been able to match up the description OR the chart ("map") to the landmarks around Tumacacori, part of this problem lies in the fact that the current mission that all the tourists wander through and photograph is the Franciscan mission, which post-dates the dates on the Molina document, which as you know are FAR too early for Tumacacori.

I do not like being the wet blanket here amigo, and appreciate your efforts to explain your views and theories here; part of our problems is rooted in the fact that I cannot understand Greek, and English is your second (or third) language so we may get into misunderstandings over tiny things. Thank you for your patience, and I look forward to your explanation.

Loke, Shortfinger, hey you guys this one is for Marius and me, so don't start tracking us when we set off to find it! (haha) Just kidding, for our readers who may think we are having a heated discussion here. I know that Marius does NOT want me for a partner!

 

[Oroblanco]

PS just to clarify, those dates on the Molina document are too early for the accepted version of the history of Tumacacori. There is SOME evidence that an earlier mission MAY have been established there much earlier than Kino's arrival to the area in the late 1600s. One of the letters written by a Jesuit padre during the 1751Pima rebellion sadly mourns that if the Indian uprising is successful, "eighty years of work" (missionary work) will be lost. Subtracting eighty years from 1751 leaves us at 1671, and this is twenty years before Kino ever set foot in Arizona, and is getting closer to the dates on the Molina document. There are other references which MAY be referring to some kind of missionary activity in the region even earlier than this date, but the references are too vague to be considered solid proof.

Please do continue;

 

[markmar]

It could be, if we had the measurements to other landmarks from the Molina "map". Also, not to be a stick in the mud but what exactly are we looking at, in those photos? I can hardly tell what it is, nor how large it is. Is it the size of a football (soccer) field, a washtub, or a mouse-hole? Why do you think the marking on the Molina "map" is intended to look like the mine, when they had no satellites to be snapping photos? If the "map" maker DID have use of satellite photos, then the Molina chart was really made at least no earlier than the 1950s, which as you know is two centuries too late to be genuine.

Also, the fact that the measurements do not match the written text, can just as easily be proof that the chart is wrong or false. Do you see what I mean there? It could mean that the written description is wrong or false, OR it could mean that the chart ("map") is wrong or false, we can not establish which is the case without finding the actual mines and other landmarks. So far, for at least the last fifty years, no one has been able to match up the description OR the chart ("map") to the landmarks around Tumacacori, part of this problem lies in the fact that the current mission that all the tourists wander through and photograph is the Franciscan mission, which post-dates the dates on the Molina document, which as you know are FAR too early for Tumacacori.

I do not like being the wet blanket here amigo, and appreciate your efforts to explain your views and theories here; part of our problems is rooted in the fact that I cannot understand Greek, and English is your second (or third) language so we may get into misunderstandings over tiny things. Thank you for your patience, and I look forward to your explanation.

Loke, Shortfinger, hey you guys this one is for Marius and me, so don't start tracking us when we set off to find it! (haha) Just kidding, for our readers who may think we are having a heated discussion here. I know that Marius does NOT want me for a partner!

Hi Oro

The " like a mine entrance " marking is not for the mine , but for the region where is situated the VdG mine . And yes , is exactly big like a soccer field . Is easy recognizable from the opposite hill . So , this marking is for the VdG region , like the rectangle is for the region of Opata mine .
The other marking in the map which has written beside " Esta representa VdG " is for the mine and is big like a common bedroom .
I found what represent the landmarks in the map , so for me the map is 98% accurate .
Look at the GE image of Opata mine . Is a combination of two markings from two different maps :

View attachment op3.bmp

Have a nice weekend .

 

[Ditlihi]

Hpw about a reprint of the document in Spanish ?

I second that request, Jefe.

Pardon my interruption, but I've been on walk-about and am late joining the party. I've recently requested more info regarding these documents from two of the experts posting here , but as yet have not received a response. Would someone be so kind as to provide this humble servant with the original copies for further perusal??

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Dit luv, I once translated it for Gullom, but have forgotten the details. There were several discrepincies in the origional translation which would not have allowed anyone to find it.

 

[Oroblanco]

I second that request, Jefe.

Pardon my interruption, but I've been on walk-about and am late joining the party. I've recently requested more info regarding these documents from two of the experts posting here , but as yet have not received a response. Would someone be so kind as to provide this humble servant with the original copies for further perusal??

I presume that I am not one of the two experts you have asked, but this was posted at the start of the thread on page 1:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/j...ister-micaela-molina-document.html#post216649

I think that our amigo Gollum neglected to post the second page, and someone else recently asked me about the second page so when I find it I will post it here.

:========================================================================================================
Markmar wrote

Hi Oro

The " like a mine entrance " marking is not for the mine , but for the region where is situated the VdG mine . And yes , is exactly big like a soccer field . Is easy recognizable from the opposite hill . So , this marking is for the VdG region , like the rectangle is for the region of Opata mine .
The other marking in the map which has written beside " Esta representa VdG " is for the mine and is big like a common bedroom .
I found what represent the landmarks in the map , so for me the map is 98% accurate .
Look at the GE image of Opata mine . Is a combination of two markings from two different maps :

Not to keep being the skeptic but how do we know that is the Opata mine? Can you provide something to substantiate that image is of THE Opata mine, and not simply a natural landscape feature that appears to fit what you are expecting the mine to look like? Something like ore specimens, photos of the ore vein, the workings of the mine, tailings pile? Thanks in advance.

I would also point out that while your estimate of the location of Kino's 'original' mission at Tumacacori, especially being close to the river, MAY be accurate, even so that "mission" which was really just a visita during his lifetime, was not founded until 1691, and recall the dates on the Molina document and I quote:

Directions - year 1598 to 1658

Notice that even the last date given from the Molina document, 1658, is 33 years before Kino established his first 'mission' at Tumacacori. Therefore, any measurements taken from your proposed site, or the current Franciscan structure that visitors can see today, can not be of any use because the mission being referred to in the Molina document is NOT either of those, it predated those by over three decades.


That said, there is SOME indication that an earlier mission MAY have existed, somewhere "up in the mountains" rather than along the river valley as the later missions were established. If that is the case, and since no one has yet established the ruins of any mission "up in the mountains" that predates Kino by 33 years, we have no starting point for any of the measurements as given in the Molina document. Do you see where I have problems in agreeing with your propositions about the locations and interpretations?

Please do continue,

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Go to page one on this seres of poss I cannot find my trans, but did of anothers with which I find fault Will redo it.

 

[markmar]

I presume that I am not one of the two experts you have asked, but this was posted at the start of the thread on page 1:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/j...ister-micaela-molina-document.html#post216649

I think that our amigo Gollum neglected to post the second page, and someone else recently asked me about the second page so when I find it I will post it here.

:========================================================================================================
Markmar wrote


Not to keep being the skeptic but how do we know that is the Opata mine? Can you provide something to substantiate that image is of THE Opata mine, and not simply a natural landscape feature that appears to fit what you are expecting the mine to look like? Something like ore specimens, photos of the ore vein, the workings of the mine, tailings pile? Thanks in advance.

I would also point out that while your estimate of the location of Kino's 'original' mission at Tumacacori, especially being close to the river, MAY be accurate, even so that "mission" which was really just a visita during his lifetime, was not founded until 1691, and recall the dates on the Molina document and I quote:

Directions - year 1598 to 1658

Notice that even the last date given from the Molina document, 1658, is 33 years before Kino established his first 'mission' at Tumacacori. Therefore, any measurements taken from your proposed site, or the current Franciscan structure that visitors can see today, can not be of any use because the mission being referred to in the Molina document is NOT either of those, it predated those by over three decades.


That said, there is SOME indication that an earlier mission MAY have existed, somewhere "up in the mountains" rather than along the river valley as the later missions were established. If that is the case, and since no one has yet established the ruins of any mission "up in the mountains" that predates Kino by 33 years, we have no starting point for any of the measurements as given in the Molina document. Do you see where I have problems in agreeing with your propositions about the locations and interpretations?

Please do continue,

For the Opatas mine , I only provide this image instead of nothing that had provided others . The other proofs which you asked, are forbidden to be published . Not how I have something to show .
I see , you still use the numbers in the text as an argument , but from the Tumacacori history that you posted , show us how the dates in the text were altered , maybe a hundred years earlier .
The location of the old mission that I gave , was not from books but from the map which I have decrypted . You are free to remain skeptic .
The map also shows how the Santa Isabel mine is out of National Park limits .

 

[Oroblanco]

For the Opatas mine , I only provide this image instead of nothing that had provided others . The other proofs which you asked, are forbidden to be published . Not how I have something to show .

Forbidden to show? By who or whom? Surely it is not illegal to post a few photographs of the mine, the tailings, the ore vein etc? Others have done similar things with photos of other mines and now that I think of it, I have posted such photos myself.

Markmar also wrote

I see , you still use the numbers in the text as an argument , but from the Tumacacori history that you posted , show us how the dates in the text were altered , maybe a hundred years earlier .

Where did I say that the dates in the text are altered? I am not saying that and have not said that. I have stated that it is POSSIBLE that these are not dates, but taken at face value, it refers to a time period beginning at 1598 and ending in 1658. So the description of the mine locations (and treasure of the Virgin de Guadelupe) are in relation to a mission that was apparently founded in 1598, not the one founded by Kino in 1691. As no one has (as yet) found this much earlier mission, which MAY be in the mountains rather than the river valley there really is NO starting point to work from. Hence my questions about what proves that site you posted as the Opata mine really IS the Opata mine. So far all you have posted are satellite photos, which may be just natural landscapes or even if it is a mine, may be some other old mine. There are literally thousands of old mines in Arizona, and thousands more in Sonora. We need to see something to help establish that what you are saying is the Opata really IS the Opata mine. Do you see the dilemma there?

Markmar also wrote

The location of the old mission that I gave , was not from books but from the map which I have decrypted . You are free to remain skeptic .
The map also shows how the Santa Isabel mine is out of National Park limits .

I have NO doubt that all of the mines mentioned in the Molina document, are outside of any National Park or Monument. The map you decrypted, if it is the Molina map, came from a book. Where is the location of the old mission?

Thank you for permission to remain "the skeptic" here but really it is not my comfort zone. But unless and until some solid proof is presented, we (not just me) need to see something substantial to convince everyone of what you are claiming here. Anyone can post satellite photos and say it is this lost mine or ruins of an old mission, as I am sure you are well aware. Quite a few have done so already, especially when talking about the Lost Dutchman mine but also these mines which are also famous. When so many different people are all claiming they found it, and post only satellite photos to prove it, and all are different locations, certainly not all can be correct, right?

I do not wish to discourage you Marius, just the opposite. You have seen others post this kind of evidence here before, and then expect everyone to just believe on that. Let's focus on that old mission you say you have found, can you tell us more about it? What convinced you that it is THE original Tumacacori mission? Have you been to the site? How do we know that it is not simply the ruins of an old Indian adobe home? Thank you in advance,

 

[markmar]

Oro

The old mission was where I have wrote . But i believe you are confused between San Roman and San Ramon . They are not the same . San Roman had a stronger relation with the Virgin . Mike have translated wrong the text .
Find the San Roman water and after all will go well . But keep in your mind how the words in the map are metaphorical and not literally what they could be .
Also , the direction from San Roman water to the VdG is wrong written in the text . So , you need a Saint to guide you .
And , I believe how you and the others who read this thread , are very lucky and blessed to can see even through an GE image , the VdG and Opatas sites . Keep them and don't doubt them . Is a matter of Faith .

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro

The old mission was where I have wrote . But i believe you are confused between San Roman and San Ramon . They are not the same . San Roman had a stronger relation with the Virgin . Mike have translated wrong the text .
Find the San Roman water and after all will go well . But keep in your mind how the words in the map are metaphorical and not literally what they could be .
Also , the direction from San Roman water to the VdG is wrong written in the text . So , you need a Saint to guide you .
And , I believe how you and the others who read this thread , are very lucky and blessed to can see even through an GE image , the VdG and Opatas sites . Keep them and don't doubt them . Is a matter of Faith .

No amigo I do not have any confusion about the 'waters of San Ramon'. I have a very good idea where this spring is located, and the mission established in 1598, well before the arrival of father Kino, and which is not located in the Santa Cruz river valley. However as I have no intention of giving out that information online, where anyone can take the info and beat me to finding the treasure, do not expect me to post it. I see that your proposed sites are a matter of "faith", of which sadly I must admit that I have none, and need more solid proof. Even some photos of the mine, the ore vein, tailings etc would help me greatly, but as you are not going to provide anything like that I guess we must agree to disagree. Please do continue, although I am very far from convinced by what has been posted thus far.

 

[markmar]

No amigo I do not have any confusion about the 'waters of San Ramon'. I have a very good idea where this spring is located, and the mission established in 1598, well before the arrival of father Kino, and which is not located in the Santa Cruz river valley. However as I have no intention of giving out that information online, where anyone can take the info and beat me to finding the treasure, do not expect me to post it. I see that your proposed sites are a matter of "faith", of which sadly I must admit that I have none, and need more solid proof. Even some photos of the mine, the ore vein, tailings etc would help me greatly, but as you are not going to provide anything like that I guess we must agree to disagree. Please do continue, although I am very far from convinced by what has been posted thus far.

Interesting .

 

[Shortfinger]

Loke, Shortfinger, hey you guys this one is for Marius and me, so don't start tracking us when we set off to find it! (haha) Just kidding

Not to worry, Oro. I have no intention of tracking you. If you see some size 14 boot tracks when you get to the site next time, maybe i'll have been there before you..... Seriously, I'm relocating to Yuma here shortly, and there are a couple of things in that area I want to check out before i go traveling all the way over to Tumacacori, although it will be closer for me than it is where I am now.




JB

 

[Oroblanco]

Not to worry, Oro. I have no intention of tracking you. If you see some size 14 boot tracks when you get to the site next time, maybe i'll have been there before you..... Seriously, I'm relocating to Yuma here shortly, and there are a couple of things in that area I want to check out before i go traveling all the way over to Tumacacori, although it will be closer for me than it is where I am now.




JB

I am jealous of the fresh, RIPE Oranges that you will be able to easily get. Not worried that you or anyone else is going to get to 'my' site before me, as no one is looking there, and it is extremely unlikely that anyone will look there. Besides, there are enough lost treasures and mines in the Yuma area alone to keep a treasure hunter busy for many, many years. Including a lost mission and lost gold mine, operated by the Franciscans under the illustrious father Garces before the Indians revolted. So no worries amigo and good luck! I hope your move will be like clockwork too.

More coffee anyone? The genuine article too!

 

[Shortfinger]

I am jealous of the fresh, RIPE Oranges that you will be able to easily get. Not worried that you or anyone else is going to get to 'my' site before me, as no one is looking there, and it is extremely unlikely that anyone will look there. Besides, there are enough lost treasures and mines in the Yuma area alone to keep a treasure hunter busy for many, many years. Including a lost mission and lost gold mine, operated by the Franciscans under the illustrious father Garces before the Indians revolted. So no worries amigo and good luck! I hope your move will be like clockwork too.

More coffee anyone? The genuine article too!

Well, thank you for the encouraging words. I can get all of the fresh oranges I want where I am now, but the politics of the area are driving me away. I won't go into that here, because i don't want to get my hand slapped for going off topic. Thanks for the lead on the Father Garces reference. I had heard somewhere about a missing mission in the area, but haven't had much chance to investigate. But, as you say, there are plenty of other lost treasures to locate. I can say this much, however. The move has not been all that smooth so far. But, i'm stubborn, and I'll get through it.

JB

 

[Oroblanco]

Well, thank you for the encouraging words. I can get all of the fresh oranges I want where I am now, but the politics of the area are driving me away. I won't go into that here, because i don't want to get my hand slapped for going off topic. Thanks for the lead on the Father Garces reference. I had heard somewhere about a missing mission in the area, but haven't had much chance to investigate. But, as you say, there are plenty of other lost treasures to locate. I can say this much, however. The move has not been all that smooth so far. But, i'm stubborn, and I'll get through it.

JB

IMHO, NO Oranges can top an Arizona ripe orange, just plucked from the tree. I have had fresh ripe CA oranges that were excellent, better than any Florida orange I ever had, but perhaps the harsher climate of AZ drives the trees to produce a sweeter, juicier fruit? I don't think you will be disappointed.

As a starter on the lost gold mine and treasure of the Yuma missions of father Garces, check out:
https://books.google.com/books?id=C8YUAAAAYAAJ&dq=franciscans%20in%20arizona&pg=PA216#v=onepage&q&f=false

An interesting point but the evidence suggests this is a lost placer mine, rather than a hard rock type. I have considered hunting it myself, just have never gotten around to it yet.

Good luck and good hunting, but please let us know if you are going to be offline for long so we don't send out armed search parties?

More coffee!

 

[cactusjumper]

Well, thank you for the encouraging words. I can get all of the fresh oranges I want where I am now, but the politics of the area are driving me away. I won't go into that here, because i don't want to get my hand slapped for going off topic. Thanks for the lead on the Father Garces reference. I had heard somewhere about a missing mission in the area, but haven't had much chance to investigate. But, as you say, there are plenty of other lost treasures to locate. I can say this much, however. The move has not been all that smooth so far. But, i'm stubborn, and I'll get through it.

JB

JB,

What took you so long. I have been coming to Arizona since I was 13, but only moved here 25-years ago. Good idea to get out of California before they wall it off.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Shortfinger]

IMHO, NO Oranges can top an Arizona ripe orange, just plucked from the tree. I have had fresh ripe CA oranges that were excellent, better than any Florida orange I ever had, but perhaps the harsher climate of AZ drives the trees to produce a sweeter, juicier fruit? I don't think you will be disappointed.

As a starter on the lost gold mine and treasure of the Yuma missions of father Garces, check out:
https://books.google.com/books?id=C8YUAAAAYAAJ&dq=franciscans%20in%20arizona&pg=PA216#v=onepage&q&f=false

An interesting point but the evidence suggests this is a lost placer mine, rather than a hard rock type. I have considered hunting it myself, just have never gotten around to it yet.

Good luck and good hunting, but please let us know if you are going to be offline for long so we don't send out armed search parties?

More coffee!

Well, I will definitely have to try some oranges.

Thanks for the link to the Father Garces treasure. Interestingly enough, one of the treasures I was interested in looking for was the Lost Soldier mine, which was a placer as well, with a rich ledge nearby. It may have been found already, since the area was extensively prospected in the 1800s, but nothing that fits the exact description was ever found, as far as I can tell. Also, there is another legend about WWII soldiers finding some treasure in the area that is interesting…..

As to being out of touch, I will try to remember to let everybody know, but it won’t help to send out an armed search party, since nobody will have any idea where I will be hunting, and, besides, I might get a little nervous if an armed party DID happen to locate me…..


Coffee? I use the real stuff, too.

JB