Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Hello gollum check ya mail
Crow
Thanks. Very interesting!
Mike
Like ------- conditionally
Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document
- Thread starter gollum
- Start date
Hello gollum check ya mail
Crow
Thanks. Very interesting!
Mike
Like ------- conditionally
Crow
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Don Amigo
Since Gollium was the thread starter of this wonderful topic it only fair he has first bite of the cherry.
Anyway My tropical tramp affectionado Don amigo you have more than your fair share of cherries....now about that book. You know a well written book can my friend inspire people dream even company directors of mining companies. So git writing Amigo.
Crow
Since Gollium was the thread starter of this wonderful topic it only fair he has first bite of the cherry.
Anyway My tropical tramp affectionado Don amigo you have more than your fair share of cherries....now about that book. You know a well written book can my friend inspire people dream even company directors of mining companies. So git writing Amigo.
Crow
johnmark29020
Sr. Member
Here is a question. If one of us found the ldm using any of the available info,and we could prove it. Would julia thomas descendent have a inheritance claim,and would that claim over ride current law.
Since its so well documented that waltz gave it to her on his death bed.
Could that be considered a virbel will.
Since its so well documented that waltz gave it to her on his death bed.
Could that be considered a virbel will.
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UncleMatt
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My number one treasure hunting motto: "Go where the evidence leads, do not try to lead the evidence where you want it to go"
added later: I'm losing it. I had several windows for T-net open and posted this in the wrong thread. Its still good advice, but I didn't mean to post it hear. Sorry.
added later: I'm losing it. I had several windows for T-net open and posted this in the wrong thread. Its still good advice, but I didn't mean to post it hear. Sorry.
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John_Arizona
Hero Member
Fake or Not?
I would go look any way.
I live due north of Tumacacori 2 hours drive.
I would go look any way.
I live due north of Tumacacori 2 hours drive.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
John, on my next trip north, we have to meet for coffee. Hmmmm 2 hours? Let's see to Tucson it is less than 1 hr ', to Phoenix, another 11/2 hrs, sigh since I only go to Tucson ----
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cactusjumper
Gold Member
Don Jose,
Not saying that the Molina Document is a modern-day artifact, but just the fact that the original map has disappeared, creates a red flag for me.
Not saying it should be dismissed out of hand, just saying the "Santa Cruz" River should have been labeled the Santa Maria River..........for one thing.
Good Luck,
Joe Ribaudo
Not saying that the Molina Document is a modern-day artifact, but just the fact that the original map has disappeared, creates a red flag for me.
Not saying it should be dismissed out of hand, just saying the "Santa Cruz" River should have been labeled the Santa Maria River..........for one thing.
Good Luck,
Joe Ribaudo
OP
OP
gollum
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I know you have said this before, but when do you say that the river was first called Santa Cruz?
Mike
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Hi Mike,
I believe around 1787. Without digging up the history of Suamca it's and educated guess.
My minds not working too well these days, so.......Going to get a valve and tube into my brain on the fourth. Hope to be a little brighter then.
Good Luck,
Joe
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OP
OP
gollum
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Just wondering, because Santa Cruz County, AZ (on their official website), says that:
Our History | Santa Cruz County, AZ - Official Website
Also, father Adamo Gilg SJ shows the Rio Santa Cruz on his map of 1692. I am at work right now, and can't find the 1692 map online. I have the 1693, but that does not include this area.
Mike
Our History | Santa Cruz County, AZ - Official Website
Also, father Adamo Gilg SJ shows the Rio Santa Cruz on his map of 1692. I am at work right now, and can't find the 1692 map online. I have the 1693, but that does not include this area.
Mike
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Mike,
I believe the information you have quoted is incorrect. Father Kino did not name the Santa Cruz River. I would suggest just two books, although there are many others, to learn the true history of the Santa Cruz River:
"PATHS OF THE PADRES THROUGH SONORA" by Paul M. Roca.....page 75: "The river, which Father Kino called Santa Maria "(it was never Santa Cruz in his lifetime)".....
"FATHER KINO IN ARIZONA" by Fay Jackson Smith, John L. Kessell and Francis J. Fox, S.J.
On page 141 this notation: "Santa Maria del Pilar River (Santa Cruz) :Kino's name for the Santa Cruz River".
That is all I will offer, at this time, but know I could find many more. Not sure is I will be up for that, so you will have to do your own digging.
Good luck,
Joe
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cactusjumper
Gold Member
igadbois,
I think the major confusion is caused by people,cities and counties wanting to be attached, however thin the bond may be, to famous/pioneers. The history is pretty clear here. Kino was dead when this particular Santa Cruiz came to be. His own maps and writings all back this up.
Take care,
Joe
I think the major confusion is caused by people,cities and counties wanting to be attached, however thin the bond may be, to famous/pioneers. The history is pretty clear here. Kino was dead when this particular Santa Cruiz came to be. His own maps and writings all back this up.
Take care,
Joe
John_Arizona
Hero Member
I'll meet you in Tucson
Azquester
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Nice Posts guys!
If you decide to go I'm down there almost every weekend and sometimes during the week. But bring side arms there's a lot of other Treasure Hunters and drug runners down there looking to get rich quick by treasure or illegal drugs or follow you just like in the Superstitions!
I can show you where the original site of Tumacacori is at near the town of Calabasas with the old grave yard from the symbols on the Map.
Anyway Pm me if your interested I can give you copies of the Map, Document and both pages of the Molina Doc's which a lot of people don't have or know about the second page. If you both come at the same time I only have a quad for two but I can bring my Excursion. I have four metal detectors for us to use. And I always bring Steaks, Beer plus a great stories to tell!
Bill
If you decide to go I'm down there almost every weekend and sometimes during the week. But bring side arms there's a lot of other Treasure Hunters and drug runners down there looking to get rich quick by treasure or illegal drugs or follow you just like in the Superstitions!
I can show you where the original site of Tumacacori is at near the town of Calabasas with the old grave yard from the symbols on the Map.
Anyway Pm me if your interested I can give you copies of the Map, Document and both pages of the Molina Doc's which a lot of people don't have or know about the second page. If you both come at the same time I only have a quad for two but I can bring my Excursion. I have four metal detectors for us to use. And I always bring Steaks, Beer plus a great stories to tell!
Bill
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johnmark29020
Sr. Member
JudyH you are a riot. I always love reading your posts.
Hitndahed
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=====================================================================
Beer,,steaks,,,provided detectors,,,quads AND a MAP !!!
Damn,,, count me in for sure.
I have a bunch of vacation time coming up that I need to burn.
LOL
Hit
Azquester
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No takers but you Judy!
As for Pork Chops, I love a good tenderloin sandwich once in a great while!
Never wore it around my neck but if you feel like eating it from there what the heck, no one ever accused me of not being kinky enough!
Might be a tad bit sweaty though from hiking with beer!
Besides, they already PM'd me and wanted Lobster and I'm allergic to shell fish.
It make's me hunt snipe!
In that Covey Thingy...
adtofca
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just an interesting idea of where the maps come from since the chato letter was proven to have been made by Diego Fuentes ( spell check ) in the village
of La Luz new mexico . he made several maps and redotereo letters way long time ago when he was a transient miner going from mining operation to another.
he had a grampa that he would give those maps to and they would sell the maps and letters in a bar they went to down in juarez all the time to
pay for the drinks and chicas . Old Mexican with a Map is almost always the story behind these fake maps . or a Nun at a covent left it to her relatives or
a Mexican Bandit gave it to his family while waiting to be hanged . in 1961 in T or C nm there was a guy that bought one for the mountains nearby . he was an Oil
field worker in his early 20 and he went out in the mountains all the time seeking that treasure and the mine it came from and also he had some news about a bandit treasure in there . when we left T or C in the 1970 he was still looking . my granpa went one day with him and they found a big rock with a scratched figure
on it that was on the map and the man got excited and my granpa tried to tell him that the scratch was not on that rock years ago but somebody who made his map put it there to fool the people who bought the maps from the guy at the bar . but the guy got mad at granpa and they never spoke again. i wonder did that guy ever give up on the false treasure on that map .
of La Luz new mexico . he made several maps and redotereo letters way long time ago when he was a transient miner going from mining operation to another.
he had a grampa that he would give those maps to and they would sell the maps and letters in a bar they went to down in juarez all the time to
pay for the drinks and chicas . Old Mexican with a Map is almost always the story behind these fake maps . or a Nun at a covent left it to her relatives or
a Mexican Bandit gave it to his family while waiting to be hanged . in 1961 in T or C nm there was a guy that bought one for the mountains nearby . he was an Oil
field worker in his early 20 and he went out in the mountains all the time seeking that treasure and the mine it came from and also he had some news about a bandit treasure in there . when we left T or C in the 1970 he was still looking . my granpa went one day with him and they found a big rock with a scratched figure
on it that was on the map and the man got excited and my granpa tried to tell him that the scratch was not on that rock years ago but somebody who made his map put it there to fool the people who bought the maps from the guy at the bar . but the guy got mad at granpa and they never spoke again. i wonder did that guy ever give up on the false treasure on that map .
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Hola ADtofca, What proof do they have that Fuentes made the map? Incidentally there are several ponts that have been misinterpreted in making it virtually imposible to find the goodies - I found that out when I interpreted the Map for My buoum friend gollum.
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