Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

Howdy Marius,

It's hard for me to follow your opinion when you state that the Jesuits used codes for the Tumacacori redotero in your first paragraph, then contradict yourself in the second paragraph. Anyway, I fail to see how the ore description would be the same on two redotero's.

Howdy Mike,

First of all, thank you for your service, and my freedom. I am in agreement with your response to Marius's post on the Tayopa inventory, but that has nothing to do with my post. Take your time, and look into the Lost Josephine mine's redotero, and I am sure you will agree the Tumacacori redotero was put together by plagiarism.

Homar
 

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Homar

I believe you have misunderstood my post.

In the first paragrph I wrote how the Jesuits adopted few Spanish treasure codes for their redoteros, and used one of them ( the ore thingie ) in the Tumacacori redotero. And in the second paragraph I wrote how the Jesuits used their Original (Own ) codes in the Plazuela and Tayopa ( inventory ) treasures.

I don't see where I contradict myself.

Edit

And if you agree with Mike how in the Tayopa inventory the Church wanted to show which mines donated the precious items to promt others to do the same, then why they wrote " made from " and not " given/donated by " . Just a thought.
 

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markmar said:
Homar

I believe you have misunderstood my post.

In the first paragrph I wrote how the Jesuits adopted few Spanish treasure codes for their redoteros, and used one of them ( the ore thingie ) in the Tumacacori redotero. And in the second paragraph I wrote how the Jesuits used their Original (Own ) codes in the Plazuela and Tayopa ( inventory ) treasures.

I don't see where I contradict myself.

Edit

And if you agree with Mike how in the Tayopa inventory the Church wanted to show which mines donated the precious items to promt others to do the same, then why they wrote " made from " and not " given/donated by " . Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Howdy Marius,

I see your distinction on the codes now, so can you enlighten me how the ore description translates to a place with low vegetation, and why would that have any need to be coded? Also how you come up with an orientation of S-SW, and oriented from where?

The words "made from" as opposed to "given/donated by", don't change the world. It's like a donation "from" an organization, or company is the same as "given/donated by" the organization, or company.

Homar
 

coazon de oro said:
Howdy Marius,

It's hard for me to follow your opinion when you state that the Jesuits used codes for the Tumacacori redotero in your first paragraph, then contradict yourself in the second paragraph. Anyway, I fail to see how the ore description would be the same on two redotero's.

Howdy Mike,

First of all, thank you for your service, and my freedom. I am in agreement with your response to Marius's post on the Tayopa inventory, but that has nothing to do with my post. Take your time, and look into the Lost Josephine mine's redotero, and I am sure you will agree the Tumacacori redotero was put together by plagiarism.

Homar
Click to expand...


Hey Homar,

I will do that, but what is the earliest date for the existence of the Josephine Inventory? I believe I have the copy of the Tumacacori Map that was given to Judge Barnes in 1891. We have looked at all aspects of the map and everything points to it being made as early as the mid 1880s. Timelines match the story.

Mike
 

Howdy Mike,

Some say the redotero was found in Seville, Spain, transferred to BYU library archives. Others say it was found in Spanish archives in Mexico, so it is not clear. Jose Joaquin Garcia is said to have penned the redotero in 1814, but that date is not clear either. Embrym got my interest in this mine on page 492 of misc data & adventures of Don Jose. It is said that earliest evidence of this mine goes back to the times of Padre Posada in the 1630's. Spaniards mentioned it was the richest gold mine in the world, even richer than Tayopa. The redotero states the mine was registered in MDCCXXII-1722 & covered in MDCCDXIV which does not make sense, but is said to be 1814, the same time the redoterro was penned.

On page 493, Kanacki posted about Historian, and Professor of BYU Russell R. Rich. He was a church historian, and the one who found the redotero. Kanacki also shared a link in his post, where you may find Russell's papers, it is post #7386.

Homar
 

coazon de oro said:
Howdy Marius,

I see your distinction on the codes now, so can you enlighten me how the ore description translates to a place with low vegetation, and why would that have any need to be coded? Also how you come up with an orientation of S-SW, and oriented from where?

The words "made from" as opposed to "given/donated by", don't change the world. It's like a donation "from" an organization, or company is the same as "given/donated by" the organization, or company.

Homar
Click to expand...

Hi Homar

From my experience, in Spanish redoteros, when was used a description of the ore from a specific mine, they were described the land characteristics around the mine. Also the term 50 varas from the mint or from the pit slag to the mine ( or viceversa ) followed with the description of the silver chuncks from 1 pound to 5 arrobas, is a code which shows the degrees from the mint to the mine, which in this case are 5 degrees. If the pounds are added after the arrobas, then are deegrees plus minutes.

Another example of Spanish coded survey, is the description of the Opata mine.They give you the description of the mine and of the ore as " the mine's tunnel runs 400 vrs to the south and the ore is mixed with pebbles and after three hundred rods is cut off by a trench." Also they mark on the map a rectangle as the Opata mine, rectangle which is studded with dots ( pebbles ).
To suppose you have decrypted the map and you have found the rectangle land shape landmark, but at the spot you have recognized how that rectangle is about 250x120 meters large and to find the mine would take you some time. Also looking at the spot and comparing the clues you see how the dots ( trees ) from the map and the table land which you expected to be about in the middle of the rectangle shape, are situated in different places, at the north end of the rectangle shape landmark. Also you see how at the south end of the rectangle shape landmark is a ravine. You don't know to decrypt the Spanish code, so maybe you will find one day the mine or maybe not.
This code is " translated " as: " from the ravine at the south from the rectangle,measure 300 varas to the north and you will find the mine in a region with some trees ".
Something like in this GE image with the table land to be marked with blue color and the 300 vrs with the orange line.

Opata mine.jpg Opata mine 2.jpg
 

Howdy Marius,

I never would have thought of it that way. You could be right my friend, just as you could be wrong.

Homar
 

coazon de oro said:
Howdy Marius,

I never would have thought of it that way. You could be right my friend, just as you could be wrong.

Homar
Click to expand...

Hi Homar

Another example how the words " from one arroba to five arrobas virgin silver " is a code used by the Spanish miners and adopted by the Jesuits, is the description of the San Pedro of Tumacacori mine.
Description translated from Spanish to English:

" The mine called San Pedro belonged to Tumacacori. It measured one and one half leagues from the side of the mission to the west and when the sun rose over the lofty Santa Ritas it struck in the portal of the tunnel. At the San Pedro mine the rocks are rolled to the canyon. In the mine there will be found planchas de plata (bars of silver) weighing from 25 to 250 pounds each, also deposits containing native silver. From the San Pedro the trail descends to the Guadalupe mine and then follows by a canton to the south and reaches the spring of San Roman. On the west side of the mountain there is a long tunnel with a strong wooden door. Below this tunnel at the foot of the mountain in a canyon running from east to west will be found tin vaso (adobe smelter) and piles of slag "

Have a nice day and a Happy Christmas
 

This is an old thread that began back in 2006 with the latest comments coming in 2019. I am a newbie to the game and have been reading tonnes of threads by all of you experienced folks to learn as much as I can so I can narrow in on fascinating treasures/caches to research to see if it makes sense to purse.

My question to you all in the year 2023 is this:

Given the following:

1) Tumacacori Treasure likely cleared out by a Jesuit Priest (see post #69)
2) Opata worked out long ago
3) The Pure Conception Mine possibly found by cptbil post #27
4) Many experienced & well researched folks searching for the legends of Tumacacori for decades

Is it even worthwhile for newbies like me to begin to study these legends? I can study them to gain valuable insights about the history, events, and modus operandi of the various parties involved i.e Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, Conquistadores, Native Indians etc "BUT" is there still sizable treasure to be found at the Tumacacori Mission?

Or in other words am I late to this legend and am better off taking valuable learnings from studying this legend to then apply & research other treasures like other missions or pack train caches or other Jesuit treasures etc.

Also, is it even safe to be out there hunting for these treasures with so many others who have spent considerable time and $ researching and field work prospecting for the treasures of Tumacacori. I don't want to step on someone else's toes so to speak and get shot at. 😂

I prefer to research & hunt treasures that thousands of others haven't spent decades chasing. Of course, there may be no such thing until I stumble onto something that no one else has discovered. I'm still early in my research and keeping an open mind about ideas.

Appreciate any guidance. Ty.
 

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Tanneyhill said:
This is an old thread that began back in 2006 with the latest comments coming in 2019. I am a newbie to the game and have been reading tonnes of threads by all of you experienced folks to learn as much as I can so I can narrow in on fascinating treasures/caches to research to see if it makes sense to purse.

My question to you all in the year 2023 is this:

Given the following:

1) Tumacacori Treasure likely cleared out by a Jesuit Priest (see post #69)
2) Opata worked out long ago
3) The Pure Conception Mine possibly found by cptbil post #27
4) Many experienced & well researched folks searching for the legends of Tumacacori for decades

Is it even worthwhile for newbies like me to begin to study these legends? I can study them to gain valuable insights about the history, events, and modus operandi of the various parties involved i.e Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, Conquistadores, Native Indians etc "BUT" is there still sizable treasure to be found at the Tumacacori Mission?

Or in other words am I late to this legend and am better off taking valuable learnings from studying this legend to then apply & research other treasures like other missions or pack train caches or other Jesuit treasures etc.

Also, is it even safe to be out there hunting for these treasures with so many others who have spent considerable time and $ researching and field work prospecting for the treasures of Tumacacori. I don't want to step on someone else's toes so to speak and get shot at. 😂

I prefer to research & hunt treasures that thousands of others haven't spent decades chasing. Of course, there may be no such thing until I stumble onto something that no one else has discovered. I'm still early in my research and keeping an open mind about ideas.

Appreciate any guidance. Ty.
Click to expand...
You've struck the nail squarely on its head with your highlighted statement above, IMO.

Other than as a fun, escapist, puzzle thingy, why assume that you can solve a famous disinformation-riddled campfire legend when so many others with better intel have failed? Besides, if there was truth to the legend in the first place, why assume the loot wasn't recovered early by one of those better suited? Yeah, these things are challenging, but as you may have noticed, have not generated much more than an enormous amount of whiskey talk.

There's an old saying, "Treasure hunts find you, you don't find them." You can hedge on this by following your own advice.
 

Tanneyhill said:
This is an old thread that began back in 2006 with the latest comments coming in 2019. I am a newbie to the game and have been reading tonnes of threads by all of you experienced folks to learn as much as I can so I can narrow in on fascinating treasures/caches to research to see if it makes sense to purse.

My question to you all in the year 2023 is this:

Given the following:

1) Tumacacori Treasure likely cleared out by a Jesuit Priest (see post #69)
2) Opata worked out long ago
3) The Pure Conception Mine possibly found by cptbil post #27
4) Many experienced & well researched folks searching for the legends of Tumacacori for decades

Is it even worthwhile for newbies like me to begin to study these legends? I can study them to gain valuable insights about the history, events, and modus operandi of the various parties involved i.e Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, Conquistadores, Native Indians etc "BUT" is there still sizable treasure to be found at the Tumacacori Mission?

Or in other words am I late to this legend and am better off taking valuable learnings from studying this legend to then apply & research other treasures like other missions or pack train caches or other Jesuit treasures etc.

Also, is it even safe to be out there hunting for these treasures with so many others who have spent considerable time and $ researching and field work prospecting for the treasures of Tumacacori. I don't want to step on someone else's toes so to speak and get shot at. 😂

I prefer to research & hunt treasures that thousands of others haven't spent decades chasing. Of course, there may be no such thing until I stumble onto something that no one else has discovered. I'm still early in my research and keeping an open mind about ideas.

Appreciate any guidance. Ty.
Click to expand...

As @sdcfia has said, if it's a fun hobby for you, then go do it.

As long as it doesn't impact your well-being, your finances, or your relationships.
 

Hello All,

Do most of you believe that you are reading the Molina Document wrong as shown? Personally I believe it is viewed without knowing how the early Spanish hid the obvious?

Regards

LUE-HAWN
 

LUE-Hawn said:
Hello All,

Do most of you believe that you are reading the Molina Document wrong as shown? Personally I believe it is viewed without knowing how the early Spanish hid the obvious?

Regards

LUE-HAWN
Click to expand...
Gidday amigos

I hate to bursting a bubble. I just no longer see any point in assumptions put on top of assumptions. It is in a exercise in futility .

I could go to great lengths why everyone will be chasing their tail? But why bother? People will blindly believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts? Then drown themselves into a perpetuating fantasy. And hey if it gives them a reason to get out of bed in the morning it is not a bad thing? But the results will be the same.

If you really interested in getting the facts not all the BS that came latter, like with the fake Molina Document. that was created by an obsessed treasure hunter around 1900 from Arivaca. Who wanted partners and backing on the blind belief there was more silver to recover at Tumacacori?

He sold fake maps and alleged documents to help him pay for his own searches. he thought promoting BS was a means to an end for him finding more stolen silver. He helped to promote the myth of Jesuit Spanish treasure. Hence the treasure legend we hear today.

The fact remains was there was silver bars recovered from under altar of the ruined church. it was not Jesuit nor Franciscan, not even Spanish? it was stolen from a working mine by two Germans working in the mine during the civil war period and living in the abandoned Mission .

That fact is not as sexy as Spanish or Jesuit treasure? or secret treasure signs is it not? No great Jesuit conspiracy, no free masons, no secret cabal.

Judge Barnes was involved in legal negotiations with two Mexican brothers who were ranchers. They was in dispute with United States. Their ranch covered most of area the United states put their border through in effect cutting their ranch into two, Because United states wanted a straight border.

One of Germans returned years later a recovered the silver he had stolen years ago and later stories from word of mouth turned him into being a Jesuit priest. Hence we have the treasure legends we hear today with more and more BS heaped on it.

One of the Mexican brothers gave judge Barnes rough map. That ROUGH map and the story of the German, Which later versions of event turned into Jesuit. Mexican brothers map I have. But its similar to the copies you see on the internet. That had a rough indications of all the mines that covered the huge ranch estate.

The mines however was never lost just mostly worked out and abandoned. One of the mines was worked well up until the 1930's. But hey why let truth get in way of good story?

But Hey no one are interested in the truth. the legends are way way way more sexy.

Crow




 

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Thanks Crow

Regards

LUE-HAWN
 

I hope you’re still around. I am not a newbie. I am a Master Dowser. With many years of experience, why don’t you try to contact me? I’ve got a lot of information on the area and ready to move forward.
 

HighPlainsSifter said:
Well I sent you a PM Buck, but I am not sure why? I live in this area and didnt know if there was any interest in the lost opata mine. Whiole I am sure land marks have changed since the 1600's, it would be pretty cool to look for it As I am laid off....I have um.....time?
Click to expand...
 

I hope you’re still around, I’m looking for someone in the area. I have to have a side-by-side ATV and somebody I can trust please reply.
 

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