Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[Infosponge]

Cactusjumper,

"If we are talking about Jesuit mining and treasure, could you please tell me why we shouldn't include South America? The same stories, rumors, legends,...."

For the same reason we don't include China. We are debating Jesuit mining in Mexico. If you want to talk about Jesuit mining in South America, start a topic. Those who are interested will seek it out.

I often have the books that we discuss/quote here, and I notice you do as well. Just don't want you to think I am Googling the books and cutting and pasting the contents. I hate it when others do that. Di Peso's book is a little rare, and often expensive. Not everyone has a copy. At a guess, you and I may be the only two here.

Fair enough, but I always include links when possible because not everyone can afford rare and expensive books. I can see that you have good taste! Not by the book in your photo, rather the red headed woman in it.

Here is a samplling of my books which pertain to the history of the southwest, and the Jesuits.


Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening sponge: send me the small, frayed one in the middle of the bottom shelf, the brown one, and I'll forgive you.

Don Jose de La Mancha (Tropical Tramp)

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
My apologies in advance for such a lengthy response, but it is my last so I beg your indulgence, thank you in advance.

Lamar wrote

Dear group;
before one embarks upon a debate, one must FIRST research the VALIDITY of their position. This is critical to all aspects of a good debate and it's obvious that no one has bothered to research the history of the debate prior to engaging in said debate. For example, the Jesuits have been viewed as money-hungry slave owners yet how can this possibly be stated without first researching the HISTORY of the Jesuit Order in detail?

It is a bit silly to be wishing to go back to a starting point, at this stage of the discussions. Your description of the Jesuits as "money-hungry slave owners" is distorting what has been presented, into a caricature instead of the actual truth. This is not a criminal legal proceeding but a discussion amongst treasure hunters, which is more akin to a civil court, with very different standards of what constitutes evidence and what constitutes proof. If the Jesuits were not involved in mining and never possessed any treasures, there must be no evidence they ever did. As you so openly dismiss and question the various Jesuit testimonies (as in the Georgetown documents, father Polzer's admittance, father Nentvig's statements, etc) it is apparent that you hold all Jesuit testimony as possibly false and open to questioning. To a degree, I share your view, for we cannot expect any group to openly admit to activities which were directly against the rules of their own Order, as well as the civil authorities in most cases.

Cactusjumper wrote

I believe I have been saying that all along......No evidence of Jesuit mining.

I wonder if you realize how that sounds, in spite of numerous pages of debate and bits of evidence. We could as readily state, with the same justifications, that there is no evidence there ever were any Jesuits in what is today Arizona.

Cactusjumper also wrote

When the Jesuits were expelled, history tells us, things went to hell in most of the places where they had control in Northern Mexico.

That is largely a matter of perspective, and at least in part not directly attributable to the Jesuit absence - are you taking the position that the Apaches must have feared the Jesuits, which is why when they were gone, the Apaches increased the tempo and ferocity of their assaults? Can we say that the Yuma Indians rose in rebellion against the Franciscans on the Colorado river, because the Jesuits were gone? Or is the case that the Spanish (and French, and Portuguese) had removed the Jesuits without realizing the amount of 'control' over the Amerindians they had benefited from the Jesuits, and their replacements (Franciscans, Dominicans, Augustinians etc) were both too few in number and often too harsh in their treatments of the native peoples?

Cactusjumper also wrote

Infosponge,

"If we are talking about Jesuit mining and treasure, could you please tell me why we shouldn't include South America? The same stories, rumors, legends,...."

For the same reason we don't include China. We are debating Jesuit mining in Mexico. If you want to talk about Jesuit mining in South America, start a topic. Those who are interested will seek it out.

This approach is myopic to say the least; for were the Jesuits of Sonora, Chihuahua, Sinloa, or Nueva Viscaya of a different Order than all the other Jesuits of the world? They were all of ONE Order, and the practices differed to some degree in Canada from Sonora or Peru & Baja, but it is silly to try to treat one branch of the tree as if it is far different from the rest. It appears that you might wish to restrict the discussion ONLY to the southwest, because you know that the records are spotty and incomplete, with much less documentation of Jesuit mining and/or treasures than in other regions, or that you realize that other areas have enough documentation to prove a criminal case against the Jesuits. The Jesuits of the Philippines answered to the very same General and Pope as the Jesuits of Martinique or the Jesuits of Sonora. Myths are most often based on facts, so why is it that almost anywhere there were Jesuits in the colonial period, we find legends of lost Jesuit mines and buried Jesuit treasures? All made up stories by treasure writers, or concocted by the enemies of the Order, or a catchy idea to attract the tourist trade? Really?

Cactusjumper also wrote

I often have the books that we discuss/quote here, and I notice you do as well. Just don't want you to think I am Googling the books and cutting and pasting the contents. I hate it when others do that. Di Peso's book is a little rare, and often expensive. Not everyone has a copy. At a guess, you and I may be the only two here.

May be, but quite a presumption. Have you been to the personal 'libraries' of everyone here, that you can make statements about what books anyone has, or doesn't have? I would not try to guess what books anyone else has, even those collections of people whom I have searched their personal libraries. I don't own Di Peso's book, and having had to live on tight budgets for a number of years the 'book purchase' fund has always been very restricted; however many rare books I have had to borrow by interlibrary loans or even drive considerable distances to go to large libraries in order to have a peek at them. Being a simple treasure hunter and not a professional academic, I did not take the step of making photocopies of everything I ever read, for my own purposes (treasure hunting) it was sufficient to just take notes of the salient points.

I have very often taken advantage of the quite good and growing Google online collection of books, and cut-n-paste the relevant passages in order to support the contentions made; at the time I was laboring under the (clearly mistaken) notion that by doing so, it served several purposes, first it was not my own words or thoughts, but published statements of recognized 'authoritive' figures in most cases; second that anyone could simply click on the links provided, and thus see for themselves that I had not altered, re-worded or changed the meanings of the statements thus quoted. It was a quick and dirty (easy for a lazy person with very limited time to spend on the internet) method of providing a 'case'. Now that I understand how much this is hated, I will not bother you Joe with any further debates. I am sorry if I do not have time (or even access to much of our own small collection of books) to be hand-typing each word and then adding the notations for where to check on it, and for having caused you such irritation with my google-cut-n-paste jobs.

Very nice pix Joe, especially that bird (a grackle?) was it really a wild bird that just happened to come in for a treat? Pretty neat that it did, and especially that you were able to get a photo of it.

It is still daylight here and there is still a chore or three that must get done so I will sign out in a moment, just had a few minutes and wanted to catch up. Pretty impressive collection you have there amigo Infosponge, I am jealous!

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

PS Edited this, on second thought, I won't bow out of such an interesting discussion. My apologies for acting childish.

 

[Infosponge]

Don Jose de La Mancha (Tropical Tramp)

Evening sponge: send me the small, frayed one in the middle of the bottom shelf, the brown one, and I'll forgive you.

So what did I do this time? Just so you know, the book you picked out is titled “Gury’s Doctrines Of The Jesuits,” By M. Paul Bert. The next time you stop by for a cup of coffee you’re more than welcome to check it, or any other books you wish to use for research out of my library. Don’t forget the rain check is still good on the home made deep dish lasagna, braciole, and manicotti.

Give my regards to Berta,

--------------------------------------------------

Oroblanco,

My apologies in advance for such a lengthy response, but it is my last so I beg your indulgence, thank you in advance.

Please say it isn’t so! You have brought a lot to the debate, and I for one welcome your input.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo Infosponge - I have edited my last post there, and my apologies for so childishly threatening to 'run away' from such an interesting discussion. Thank you for the kind words, though it is really you whom have brought so much 'dammin' evidence to the table here - I look forward to reading your responses as well as those of our opponents.
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

That's a very nice library you have there, although I didn't notice Di Peso's book. Was that on purpose? My own copy of "The Apache Country" by J. Ross Browne is also coming apart. If you are a J. Ross Browne fan, and I am, the book by Lina Fergusson Browne is a real look into the real man.
Lina married Spencer C. Browne, the grandson of J. Ross. He started a book using his grandfather's letters and journals as his source, but died before he could comlete it. Lina finished the book in memory of her husband and his grandfather. She called it a "character study of a remarkable man."

We do have a lot of the same books.

Thanks for the picture.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

It's true that I am a bit of a book snob, but I use Google with cut and paste as well. I often do that, even though I have the book at hand. It's just easier. On the other hand, I have my doubts that many people would read Di Peso's book completely........on Google.

Without that cover to cover reading...... That's what I was trying to convey in my previous post. People often say they have a book, when they have really only skimmed it on Google.
For me, that is usually obvious by their posts.

In your case, I am always in awe of your knowledge of history. I believe you have learned it cover to cover. Perhaps we should just start another topic somewhere and discuss impondo zankhomo. Something tells me that you are familiar with the story that surrounds that topic. Fascinating bit of history.

While my personal library means a great deal to me, I'm generous with my friends. They are more valuable than any book.

Without the passion and conviction on both sides of this debate, It would become a boring bit of head-nodding.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Infosponge]

Good evening Cactusjumper,

Thanks for the heads up on the book by Lina Fergusson Browne, sounds interesting. I will surely add a copy to my library. My copy of Di Peso's book is a soft cover and is in the first picture on the top shelf far right.


And yes Oro, that is a piece of "plancha de plata" ore in the photo.

Good night all,

Infosponge

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

I am more than convinced. You are the real deal. My apologies for doubting you. Thanks for taking the time and having the patience to nudge me off my high-horse.

Your copy of "The Apache Country" looks just like mine. 1869?

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Very nice pix Joe, especially that bird (a grackle?) was it really a wild bird that just happened to come in for a treat? Pretty neat that it did, and especially that you were able to get a photo of it."

I was lucky to get some really good shots on that trip. The birds were all wild, but they were used to being hand fed as the boats speed up and down the river. As I mentioned, the boat was rocking right along, so I was surprised at how good some of the pictures turned out. It was this fellows face that stood out for me:

Thanks and take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
Cactusjumper wrote

Infosponge,

I know you are addressing Lamar, but if you want to discuss Jesuit involvement with slavery in Maryland, IMHO, it should be moved to another topic.

We are discussing a specific area, Northern Mexico, and the possibility of Jesuit mining and treasure.

Let's all concede, individual Jesuits did whatever the deemed necessary, no matter what the Vatican ruled. In some cases, that may have included mining.
May is the key word here, because there is no evidence to prove they did any mining in Northern Mexico......that I have seen.

That's our topic, let's stick to it.

May I ask, what is so unique and/or peculiar about Northern Mexico, that makes it quite different from all other regions where the Jesuits were operating? I would argue, that it should be granted to allow evidence from other areas, as a form of 'character witness' against the Jesuits; that their operations elsewhere were not far different in any particular way in Chile or Sonora; that what this particular Order of Catholicism did in Bolivia at least shows that they were not above operating and owning mines, which they could readily claim were being worked for the benefit of the Indios of their missions/reducions and for the benefit of the Church (with a capital 'C' in this case). If we found that Jesuits in South America utterly avoided any kind of mining or mineral extraction, this would support the theory that they never did in Sonora or Sinaloa either. The reverse is the case however. So what makes Northern Mexico so different that we must ignore all evidence of Jesuit activities elsewhere? Thank you in advance.

To illustrate my point here that Jesuit missions were not operating in utter isolation from the rest of the world, consider this passage,

San José de Guaymas was the only ranchería of the Opan-Guaymas nation.68 It was created as a mission in 1751 but had to be abandoned by 1759 or '60 because of the scarcity and bad quality of its water and because of the Seri menace.69 The ranchería was moved farther up the Gulf of California coast closer to Cerro Prieto, near a bay called San Javier that could offer shelter to a whole navy and would favor trade with the Philippines and Peru. The water problem could be overcome by means of cisterns as in Cádiz or by bringing water from the Yaqui River, which is not far away. Most of the former inhabitants are now in Belem, and the rest are scattered in different mining settlements.

<from Rudo Ensayo, by father Nentvig>

As for that statement about "...there is no evidence to prove they did any mining in Northern Mexico......that I have seen. " What about this?

"In at least one documented case, the relationship between missionaries and miners in connection with food supply resulted in a singular activity on the part of the priests. Mining in sonora was not limited entirely to lay Spaniards. The Jesuits of Matape mission also engaged in the extraction and refining of silver ores from deposits near Tecoripa, not far from San Miguel Arcangel. According to the rules of the Jesuit order, priests were forbidden to own, operate, or even acquire knowledge of mining. But apparently ownership of the mines in question had been signed over to the mission by a Spanish miner in payment for debts he incurred for supplies obtained from the padres. Moreover, the priests claimed that the mines belonged to the College of San Jose at Matape, not to the mission itself, and thus the superiors permitted continuation of the "forbidden" activity. During the late seventeenth century, annual proceeds from the Tecoripa mines under church management ranged from three thousand to twelve thousand pesos, a substantial windfall for the college and the missionaries. "
<Sonora: its geographical personality by Robert Cooper West, pp 62>

Is Mr West simply making this up, or passing along a false story?

Cactusjumper also wrote

Perhaps we should just start another topic somewhere and discuss impondo zankhomo. Something tells me that you are familiar with the story that surrounds that topic. Fascinating bit of history.

Thank you for the very kind words Joe; no I am not familiar with Impondo Zankhomo and this is the first I have ever heard of it. <Rather like the Bilbrey Crosses, of which I had zero info prior to your thread on them.> I am still learning, with thanks at least partly due to our discussions.

I did not realize that cut-n-paste is irritating to some folks and have NO interest in irritating any friends, which was my reason for thinking it best to just drop out - most of our little collection is not available only one box was all I was able to dig out so have been using the internet collection. Some of the internet resources are pretty hard to find in hard copy, like Historia de la Compañia de Jesus en Nueva-España, que estaba ..., Volume 1 By Francisco Javier Alegre, Carlos María de Bustamante, 1841 http://books.google.com/books?id=IQIOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR1#v=onepage&q&f=false
...most Google books can be directly downloaded and saved on disc, which is handy.

That is quite a photo Joe, looks like he (the bird) knew that he was visiting a friend!

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Dang it, even with a long-winded post, I still forget to add what I wanted;

Infosponge wrote

And yes Oro, that is a piece of "plancha de plata" ore in the photo.

Wow and that is not in jest either - that is something! You are the only person I have ever heard of, who had an actual example of that native silver from the Planchas de Plata! May I ask how much it weighs? I don't even know of any museum or historical society that has an actual example. Wow.

Roy

PS - I see yet another book I have never read (or found for sale) Pfefferkorn's description of Sonora - yes I am truly jealous!

 

[Oroblanco]

Postscript <again>

An estimate as to the wealth (non-portable, real estate) of the church in Mexico,


"The church of Mexico owned real estate, probably to the value of between two and three million pesos. After the suppression of the Jesuits few lands went into the possession of the church. Its real wealth consisted of the tithes and vast amounts secured by mortgage, a' censo redimible on the lands of private parties.

The aggregate value of the church property both secular and regular in estates and mortgages must have been in the early part of the present century not less than one half the total value of real estate in the country. As early as 1644 the ayuntamiento of Mexico petitioned King Felipe IV to check the increase of convents and of investments for religious purposes. The possessions of the church were considerably reduced in 1767 by the expulsion of the Jesuits whose estates reverted to the royal treasury though the rights of the benevolent establishments of which the Jesuits had been in charge were duly respected. Nevertheless at the beginning of the nineteenth century the aggregate must have been as above stated and represented a money value of about $44 500,000."
<The works of Hubert Howe Bancroft ...By Hubert Howe Bancroft pp 696-697>

Bancroft, I will point out, held that there were no Jesuit mines or treasures. The Catholic Church of Mexico was not quite as poverty-stricken as we are led to believe, at least not prior to 1767.
Roy

 

[Infosponge]

Cactusjumper,

"Your copy of "The Apache Country" looks just like mine. 1869?"

Yes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oroblanco,

"May I ask how much it weighs?"

14.6 troy ounces, and it's brother weighs in right at 21 troy ounces. The smaller one is ball shaped. I have to be honest here, these were recovered directly north of the actual Plancha de Plata site on the U.S. side of the border. The largest one recovered so far weighs 28lbs. These are a copper silver mix, but they are flat plates and balls of ore.


Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Infosponge]

Good morning,

Here is the account of the Plancha de Plata discovery from Pfefferkorn’s description of the Province of Sonora, pages 90 & 91. On page 91, Pfefferkorn makes a reference to “this church treasure.”


Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[lgadbois]

An excellent narrative of the Bolas de Plata story can be found in Chapter 6, starting at page 157, of the book, "Juan Bautista de Anza: Basque Explorer in the New World, 1693-1740 By Donald T. Garate."

A sample of the book can be found at:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JM...&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Infosponge]

Lamar you stated the following:

Re: JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?
Reply To This Topic #297 Posted Dec 21, 2009, 06:33:33 PM
"http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,286969.msg2078370.html"
Dear cactusjumper;
I agree with your assessment of the situation 101% my friend! However, I would like for it to be known that I am dedicated to protecting the faith, and as such, as long as there are no more anti-Catholic or anti-Jesuit statements made, I shall be content to let sleeping dogs lie.

And now, game on! Of course, in all of the replies there has be any substantive proof of the existence of Jesuit treasures. I've read of instances of Jesuits having bells made of silver, yet no one has yet asked why those particular bells were cast in silver instead of in bronze? If a bell were cast in silver then most assuredly it could NOT have been rung as it would crack the first time the clapper hit the side of the bell!

Next, no one has yet asked WHO cast the silver bells? Bell casting was a highly skilled art form and it required manyskilled and trained craftsmen in order to make a working bell. Even with all of their vast experince, the very elementary methods employed insured that only one bell in three passed the proof stage. To the best of my knowledge, all bells were cast by bell founders in Europe and there were never any bell founders in the New World colonies until at least the mid 1800s. Therefore, those 7 silver bells could only have been cast in Europe and I seriously think that someone would have noticed seven solid silver bells either during their founding or during the trip across the Atlantic Ocean.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Well then, you just might find the following information a wee bit interesting: From the book titled "Missionary in Sonora The Travel Reports of Josrph Och, S. J." 1755-1767, pages 150 & 151.



If I’m not mistaken this could be considered mining! Also, according to Father Och, there was at least one bell maker here (albeit on the run for murder) capable of casting bells a century before the best of your knowledge.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
Infosponge - that is just too cool!!! I have often wondered if more of those slabs of native silver might be found, if a fellow had a good metal detector and access to the land. That is quite a rarity you have there amigo, you know nuggets of native silver are far more rare than gold nuggets! Now we can imagine what the huge slabs must have looked like when they were first found.

Infosponge wrote

If I’m not mistaken this could be considered mining!

Placer mining, to be specific, I would have to say yes - and eight mules worth, several times! That is more copper than a few pockets full, as has been implied. No wonder the Jesuit mission bells are so famous - besides being pioneer prospectors and miners, they did some smelting too.

Oh and one more thing for our amigo Lamar - about that idea of silver bells being incapable of being bells, that they would crack on being rung, well can't you remember that old Christmas carol, "Silver Bells"? Silver makes very sweet sounding bells, and being a malleable metal it withstands being struck; it is the very hard, brittle type metals that make poor bells; like our own Liberty bell, which cracked; it had been originally cast in Whitechapel (England) but was re-cast in Philadelphia, in 1753; so they were casting bells even in the English colonies well before the mid 1800's. Bell makers were in good demand, especially considering that they were able to also cast cannons which required much the same set of skills and methods.

Thank you for the link to the book on Anza amigo Igadbois!

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - almost forgot to point out, Father Och, SJ, had his INDIANS DO THE MINING. Obviously, all those stories of Indians being forced to work in mines by the Jesuits, must be from the fertile imaginations of treasure writers, and the hate-spewing enemies of the Society of Jesus for there is just no evidence that the Jesuits ever did any mining, or used Indian labor as forced labor. I guess this would mean that Molina document and its 'twin' - must not be real. Right? <I am being facetious amigos>

Still care to stick to the hard line, that no Jesuits ever used Indians as slaves to do mining, never had any mines or worked them, and thus never had any treasures since they were strictly sworn to that personal vow of poverty?
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again - just wanted to add, that foundries (where bells might be cast) were established in Mexico well before the 1700's too - for instance at Santa Clara del Cobre, a town founded in 1530 after construction of an enormous smelter there for the nuns of Santa Clara who obtained official recognition of the town in 1553. <Near Michoacan> Nuns with a huge copper smelter, in 1530? Yep!
Oroblanco