Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

"I would assume that her statement was based on the same thorough research as everything else that she claimed in her publication."

Would you mind citing exactly which claims you are referring to? Since, from your statement, I assume you have read her book, it seems probable that you have specific instances the you could quote.

Thanks in advance,

Joe

 

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[somehiker]

Here Ya Go Joe:

I could "quote" a bunch more from the Google Books link,but I won't bother since it only leads to more cut and paste and I might omit something "contradictory" to my own opinion.That can be a problem with anyone's conclusions,not just yours or mine.

Regards:SH.

Here is another qualified opinion:

[Even as the Seris maintained a smoldering "low intensity" war, successfully repelling two major expeditions launched against them, the northern Pimas rebelled in 1751; the fury of their movement fell against the mission pueblos. As many as 1,000 warriors from the Altar and Concepción valleys and the Papagueria, moving in separate bands, attacked numerous villages and small mining and ranching settlements.

They burned and sacked churches and other mission property, stole or destroyed entire herds of cattle, and murdered two missionaries: Tomás Tello of Caborca and Enrique Rúhen of Sonoitac. Pima rebels held the Spanish military at bay for more than two months, until a combined force of presidial troops and militiamen defeated them at Aribac, leaving more than 100 warriors dead. A similar number of vecinos had perished over the course of the rebellion, and Spanish property was reduced to ashes.

In the ensuing investigation, it was alleged that rebel leaders had vowed to "finish off the Spanish nation and live alone in the land that belonged to them." Their anger is striking in view of the fact that at this time the Pimeria Alta was not heavily settled by gente de razon. Santa Ana and Soledad constituted the only reales de minas of any importance, although the area from Oquitoa to Bac was dotted with small mines and ranches that were the Pimas' principal targets. The destruction or theft of the vecinos' cattle -- as with the Seris' warcraft -- constituted both a tactic and an objective. By killing off the ganado mesteno, the Indians defended their own territory, attacked Spanish property, and reduced their adversaries' mobility.

It is equally significant that the Pimas singled out two missionaries for death, considering them espanoles and, as such, among the enemy. Padres Tello and Ruhen may have fallen victim to the Indians' wrath because of their relative isolation in Caborca and Sonoitac. The latter friar had only recently arrived at his post; as occurred with Padre Saeta half a century earlier, the Tohono O'odham of this remote rancheía rejected the demands that a resident priest made on their daily lives and his interference in the intimate details of their familial organization. The Pimas' testimony before Governor Ortiz Parrilla expressed their resentment against work discipline, corporal punishment, and other burdens of mission life. Notwithstanding the Indians' articulate protest, the reason for the uprising went beyond these immediate grievances to questions of power and leadership within the Pima community.] Wandering Peoples: Colonialism, Ethnic Spaces, and Ecological Frontiers in Northwestern Mexico, 1700-1850. By Cynthia Radding http://history.unc.edu/faculty/cynthia-radding.html
_________________________________

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Your last post explains a lot to me. Are you doing your research on Google? Enter in key words for your argument and see what pops up to support your position. It's hard to sit in front of a computer and read an entire book.

From your "cut and paste" comment, can I suppose that you believe that is how I get my information?

While I know there is a wealth of information on the Internet, that is not how I chose to do my own research. If you only seek out passages that support your opinion, you are limiting your overall knowledge.

That's just my opinion based on what you have just posted, so I could be reading it all wrong. If so, that's my mistake.....not yours.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning Joe: I still need more --->\_ _/

You posted -->When I finish Tayopa, I probably will know about that after opening up the record room."
+++

How does one know there is a "record room" prior to opening it?
**************

Obviously, I have much more information than I have posted on public networks he he he Roy knows a lot of it, but until we meet, I will not discuss the key data.

Wanna know why? just go to google and type in Tayopa. The data that I have posted on Tayopa is open for the entire world. If I had known this, I would have been far more restrictive. sigh.
=====================================================

You also posted -->How is it know that any hidden gold or silver is Jesuit, as opposed to minerals withheld from government documentation by the miners, both then and in more modern times?
**********
Simply because the expulsion order had no effect upon them, so they would have continued to deliver it to it's destination.
=====================================================

You also posted -->How is the book coming along?
*********
Sigh, I am the victim of compulsive procrastination.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Infosponge]

Cactusjumper,

I will accept Ms. Radding's conclusions until you come up with something more than your opinion, which I'm sure is usually just fine. She provides sources throughout her book. Since that is something that is easily checked, I will assume she did not make it up.

You're right, She does provide sources throughout her book. It just so happens I have a copy of it, but since you didn't post her sources after I asked, you forced me to dig it out of storage. (just not enough room in my library for it and about 30 totes of other books.) I had an informed suspicion (or maybe it was just a lucky guess) of which investigation she was quoting from. It is more than obvious it was the Jesuits testimony, and the Jesuits own investigation. What a surprise!

Information can be both good or bad. As a sponge, isn't it possible that you could absorb both?

You're right, and I have absorbed both. But I have to question whether or not you have? You chose to believe the Jesuits own investigation and testimony, against the testimony of Spanish soldiers, and the Pima Indians who were the very people who went on the war path. You have every right to believe what you want, but I find the testimony extremely suspect of those who investigate themselves!

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

It's interesting that you find the fact that the Jesuits were called to defend themselves unusual. It was not an internal (Jesuit) investigation where this took place. It was the investigation of Governor Ortiz Parrilla that she is talking about. The fact is that Parrilla thought very highly of Luis Oacpicagigua. Do you find it unusual that he (Luis) was defending his actions in this affair?

I believe that proves my point about using the Internet to form your arguments. It's good that you have the actual book. Perhaps you should reread chapter nine. In note 47, she is giving you a source to see what the Jesuit's had to say in their own defense.

It's all perception of what we have read, so I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Hi Joe:
"Enter in key words for your argument"

You do have it wrong,for I entered yours.

"If you only seek out passages that support your opinion, you are limiting your overall knowledge"

And Authors and Books that support your opinion as well?

"If so, that's my mistake.....not yours."

So...why were the miners so interested in the "cheap" labour of the missions?

Regards:SH.

 

[Infosponge]

Cactusjumper,

It's all perception of what we have read, so I could be wrong.

But maybe you're right, maybe my perception of what I have read is wrong?

Have a good day,

Infosponge

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

["If you only seek out passages that support your opinion, you are limiting your overall knowledge"

And Authors and Books that support your opinion as well?]

Since you have read the two authors and books I have quoted from here, is it your opinion that one or either of them are in support of the Jesuits side of the story?

You have no way of knowing how I choose my books, but it's not by the opinions inside.....How would I know? I choose my books by subject and the reputations of the authors. And you?

In "The Upper Pima of San Cayetano Del Tumacacori....", Charles Di Peso writes on page 60: "Governor Parrilla was informed of the seriousness of the situation; when he learned that his old friend and
brother-in-arms against the Seri, Luis Oacpicagigua, was the main instigator, tears came to the governor's eyes."

It's possible that the governor's actions and conclusions were colored by his hatred of the Jesuits and his obvious friendship with Luis.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

Funny thing you quoted Cynthia Radding. I just received an email from her this morning.

Here is an excerpt:

The inconsistencies within the documentary record and between them and historical works is what makes our research so interesting. When we view the Jesuit mission enterprise and their wider activities in the New World, in both North and South America,it becomes apparent that the Jesuits were linked quite heavily into economic pursuits, which they blended into their spiritual ideology of undertaking all this work for the greater glory of God. That is the sense that I discerned from the quotations I found written in the ledger books and cited in WP (Wandering Peoples).

..............We know that in parts of Mexico, Peru and Rio de la Plata, the Jesuits were involved in large-scale hacienda production, often of grapes and wine, using slave labor.

She goes on to say that in the two case studies she made, she didn't see evidence of direct Jesuit Mine owning (except at Matape where Father Marras SJ received a mine as payment of a debt. So, technically, in one case at least, we have direct evidence of the Jesuits ownership of a mine.

Best-Mike

 

[Infosponge]

Cactusjumper,

In "The Upper Pima of San Cayetano Del Tumacacori....", Charles Di Peso writes on page 63, (I hace a copy of this book also)



I don’t know about you but I for one would have, and will do the same thing for my liberty.

Sincerely.,

Infosponge

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

Very nice. Will you also slaughter innocent men, women and children, including your own people in your fight for freedom? Sounds very much like the terrorists of today. That was not the reason that Luis, himself, gave for leading the rebellion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I believe I have been saying that all along......No evidence of Jesuit mining. Father Kino is only one instance where Jesuit were financially successful with their missions. Ask Ms. Radding about the wealth of the missions of Northern Mexico.

Nice job.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Infosponge]

Cactusjumper,

Will you also slaughter innocent men, women and children, including your own people in your fight for freedom?

Happens all the time in war, it's called "collateral damage."

Sounds very much like the terrorists of today

Or of yesterday! Wasn't it on the first Holy Crusade that the Knights decided they would kill every man, woman, and child in the city and let God sort them out? Which they proceeded to do and the blood ran knee deep in the streets, but of course that was okay because it was for the greater glory of God!

That was not the reason that Luis, himself, gave for leading the rebellion.

I don't believe I said it was.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

[Happens all the time in war, it's called "collateral damage."]

Really! That's an interesting spin on cold blooded murder. It's pretty much the same thing the terrorists say when they saw someone's head off, or kill a bunch of kids in a school bus. Believe the Nazis may have considered the Jews "collateral damage".

Having been in firefights where civilians were in close proximity, I understand collateral damage very well. For you to characterize what Luis did that way shows you have no idea what you are talking about. I wonder if Mike would call it collateral damage.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Infosponge]

Cactus jumper,

[Happens all the time in war, it's called "collateral damage."]

Really! That's an interesting spin on cold blooded murder. It's pretty much the same thing the terrorists say when they saw someone's head off, or kill a bunch of kids in a school bus. Believe the Nazis may have considered the Jews "collateral damage".

You call it cold blooded murder of innocent men, women, and children, but war was declared by the Indians, and whether you want to admit it or not innocent men, women, and children are often killed in war. It has been categorized as many things such as, ethnic cleansing, collateral damage, or even as “necessary” to end a war, where the targets were civilian populations with blanket fire bombings of entire cities, or the complete destruction of them with atomic bombs.

If this quote by Cynthia Radding is true,

the area from Oquitoa to Bac was dotted with small mines and ranches that were the Pimas' principal targets.

Then maybe these people that were attacked weren’t so innocent after all, as you yourself have stated more than once the Spaniards mercilessly enslaved the Indians to work their mines and ranches. I wasn’t there, and neither were you. But it wouldn’t be a far stretch to think that when the Indians attacked, every able man, woman, and child would have taken up arms to defend themselves. If they did, they would have been deemed “enemy combatants.”

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[lamar]

Cactus jumper,

[Happens all the time in war, it's called "collateral damage."]

Really! That's an interesting spin on cold blooded murder. It's pretty much the same thing the terrorists say when they saw someone's head off, or kill a bunch of kids in a school bus. Believe the Nazis may have considered the Jews "collateral damage".

You call it cold blooded murder of innocent men, women, and children, but war was declared by the Indians, and whether you want to admit it or not innocent men, women, and children are often killed in war. It has been categorized as many things such as, ethnic cleansing, collateral damage, or even as “necessary” to end a war, where the targets were civilian populations with blanket fire bombings of entire cities, or the complete destruction of them with atomic bombs.

If this quote by Cynthia Radding is true,

the area from Oquitoa to Bac was dotted with small mines and ranches that were the Pimas' principal targets.

Then maybe these people that were attacked weren’t so innocent after all, as you yourself have stated more than once the Spaniards mercilessly enslaved the Indians to work their mines and ranches. I wasn’t there, and neither were you. But it wouldn’t be a far stretch to think that when the Indians attacked, every able man, woman, and child would have taken up arms to defend themselves. If they did, they would have been deemed “enemy combatants.”

Sincerely,

Infosponge

Dear group;
before one embarks upon a debate, one must FIRST research the VALIDITY of their position. This is critical to all aspects of a good debate and it's obvious that no one has bothered to research the history of the debate prior to engaging in said debate. For example, the Jesuits have been viewed as money-hungry slave owners yet how can this possibly be stated without first researching the HISTORY of the Jesuit Order in detail?

For one to make the blank statement "The Jesuits were involved in the extraction of precious metals in the New World colonies." is simply unfounded and shows a decided lack of research, especially in light of the surviving materials we have at our disposal.

Before one can make a statement such as this, one first needs to actually RESEARCH who the Jesuits were, what their goals were and what their Rule was. Once this is known, then the discussion can proceed in an intelligent manner and only after this has been accomplished.

The majority of Jesuits came from wealthy European families, at least at first, and they willingly CHOSE to give up a life of secular pleasures and freedom in order to risk their lives in extremely hostile environments against some very well armed opponents. What could have driven men such as these to do this sort of thing? Certainly it was not for financial gain, for if that were the reason, then they never would have become Jesuits in the first place.

St. Ignatius of Loyola, the founder of the Society of Jesus was a NOBLEMAN from BIRTH! He had land and title and he WILLINGLY gave all of this up to embark upon a life of spiritual servitude and he expected no less from any of the Jesuits who followed in his wake.

The Jesuits came from prosperous European families. They stood to inherit land and title from their fathers yet they gave all of that up in order to follow the path of Christian enlightenment, and yet we are to believe that these very same men who freely gave up their former lives of leisure and pleasure, became Jesuits and after being sent to the New World colonies, decided to break the secular rules of the crowned heads of Spain and Portugal? For what purpose would they have done this? For profit?

Why? That is the underlying question that cannot be answered properly, can it? If they did it for greed, then why in the world did they ever leave the comfort and safety of their family homes in the first place The accumulated family wealth which they freely gave up in Europe would have certainly been more that they could ever have wrested from the stubborn rocks of the New World colonies.

Until someone can give a PLAUSIBLE explanation as to WHY the Jesuits did what they were accused of doing, the conspiracy theory must remain as it now is, which is nothing more than a fanciful conspiracy theory.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

".....but war was declared by the Indians".

I guess I just missed that part of the history lesson. I believe it was decided, pretty much, like the Japanese decided at Pearl Harbor.

There is no doubt that innocents are killed by war. It's always a messy business, and we used to wage it with less concern for "collateral damage" than we do today. I don't fault the Indians for waging war the way they always had, but I don't put them up on a pedestal either.
Grabbing a baby from its mother's arms and dashing it's brains out on a boulder is pretty personal.

It may just be that we should have invaded Japan and lost hundreds of thousands of our own people, but we did not start the war with them.
We gave them two chances to end the war and they chose to fight on. Sad ending, but it ended.

It's the way of the world that lands are conquered by stronger nations. The Indians did things that way as well. In a sense, it's the world's way of strengthening the gene pool. The weaker die and the stronger, mentally or physically, survive.

It's just history......Deal with it.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[lamar]

Good morning Lamar, Joe etc.

OK Gentlemen:It is time to clarify a few things. All of us are correct, but for different reasons.

A) The mission priests were living in a very harsh environment and period. It was very Dangerous and they were isolated.

They had early learned, that left to themselves, most people do not get up early and go to work without an incentive, most of the time it was not a constant drive to work for nothing for the Lord in the form of the Missionary and his plans.

Having seen Naval type discipline, which was fairly common in those days, while coming to the new world, they quickly realized that if left to themselves, the sailors would not do what is necessary to keep a ship safe and efficient. So Naval discipline was developed, one where a man could be lashed for what is considered silent contempt. No disrespect to an officer - Missionary - could be allowed if the ship was to successfully operate.

When they finally found themselves isolated and attempting to build up a self supporting mission and flock, they quickly found that the Indians had no drive to voluntarily work hard and give up their girlies and booze. A devout 'please' simply did not work very efficiently.

So they resorted to ship board discipline, and it worked, but it also gradually built up resentment , such as shipboard Mutiny. No resistance to the Padres was allowable in order to keep the mission running efficiently and safely.

Periodically there would arise arses, such as Sponge, gully, and myself that would finally lead to open revolt.

They were dedicated men, working under the harsh realities of the wild frontier, they neither had the time, nor the training in general for mining. THAT was left for another group of Jesuits. Obviously a limited no. did develop churches, some of magnificence, but genereally in built up centers and by other higher ranking Priests.

The mission Jesuits in general, were expendable, they were sacrificed to hide prior knowledge of the expulsion order.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

B) Now about the mining, yes, it definitely did take place, even back in the old world they owned and operated mines.

When they came to the new world, they were acutely aware of Gold and silver mines in abundance and with no effective competition. they supplied the mining Eng's for many of the larger mines around Mexico city, Guadalajara, etc. They taught mining in their schools.

Rome had long ago found that power and security lay in lavish gifts - bribes - When the richness of the new world became evident, what was more normal than to start reaping the bountiful harvest that the lord had provided, they mined!

For this they used the coadjuntor to mainain a low key. for reasons best known to them selves in that period they were kept apart. As a result, the coadjuntors were not subject to the Expulsion order.

The coadjuntors often supplied gifts of gold, Silver, etc., to the mission priests with out their openly acknowledging that they were both of the same party. To all appearances the were just miners.

However this was most probably known to the king, since he had his own espeonage sytem, so when the expulsion order came, the coajuntors also stopped mining.

The coadjuntors were the ones working at Tayopa, although some openly frocked priests were there, presumably to handle the spiritual needs of the faithful.. I assume that the actual head was a Priest. They were responsible for the founding and maintaining the system of leap frog missions across Northern Mexico.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, yes the mission priest was a dedicated, hard working, individual, but He was only a 'small percentage' of the Jesuit Society personel..

The Society was a kingdom in it's own right, one which was well versed in the rules of self preservation, one that easily,and with a clear conscience, attempted to wrest the new world a way from Spain to accend to even higher heights of power. It was to commence with North America, for which Tayopa was destined to provide the financing. ©@

Don Jose de La Mancha (Tropical Tramp)

Dear Real de Tayopa;
A very interesting theory my friend. And now, for the question which we all know is coming... Would you happen to have any substantiated proof of your theory?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Lamar, You asked --> Would you happen to have any substantiated proof of your theory?
**************

yes, but it will not be presented in here, and not yet, but in time.

I have my reasons, including possible collaboration with the Society on working together on something that never happened - Tayopa .

In any event, this shows that the Mission priests were not actually fiends, perhaps harsh disciplinarians, yes, but that was out of necessity and normal for the times.

I believe that today the Pope asked that the country - Belgium - let the Vatican handle the "rogue " priests rather than civilian courts. Do you suppose that they did this in the past ?? Of course all proceedings would then be sealed no? The population in general would never know of them ---- mining ?? HMM

Don Jose de La Mancha (Tropical Tramp)