cactusjumper said:
Roy,
Awhile back, I got very involved in researching church bells. It had to do with some claims that were being made by a local Dutch Hunter concerning the San Jose Bell in New Mexico. In my opinion, my research went beyond casual.
Silver was not a major part of any church bells, designed to be rung. In most cases, I doubt it could even be called a minor part.
There is no doubt that the Indians picked up copper for the Jesuits to make church bells with. There was a foundry and retort at Tumacacori that was used for that purpose. They did not use any silver in the process. This was not at the original site of Tumacacori.
If that is your "proof" that the Jesuits used the Indians for mining, I would personally conceed the point. If you plan on hanging your hat on that argument, it should probably be a very small hat.
Take care,
Joe
Hmm - you see Father Och's admittance as only worthy of a
very small hat? Let us see then, considering that this has become sort of a continuation of another thread that got very long if I can sum up the case; we have legends of lost Jesuit treasures and mines, most everywhere Jesuits operated and there are minerals; in the majority of these legends, despite common errors (like the bishop of Sonora rather than the bishop of Durango) they are fairly specific; not generalized. We know that the Jesuits were operating beyond the 'settled frontier' in the lands still occupied largely by 'wild' Indios; and that these same Jesuits were prospectors for they frequently mentioned the mineral wealth to be found in their districts.
We know that the Jesuits owned rather large amounts of real estate, vast herds of cattle, sheep, horses, etc on their expulsion; that their various colleges and missions were really only so-so at generating profits (in Mexico at least) in part due to the activities of the Seris and Apaches, for in a single raid a large amount of livestock could be lost. We know that Jesuits were often entrusted with the funds used to pay local soldiers of the missions; we know that the padres would hide the valuables (including the rather valuable ornaments of the church, like the large silver cross mentioned by father Och above) in times of trouble and that the Spanish expulsion did not go like a modern sting operation but they simply sent runners out to the more remote locations with orders for the padres to come in; we have the Jesuits own descriptions of the rich ornamentations of their missions, including even the small visitas that had no resident priests; and that these rich ornamentations were largely absent on their takeover by the Franciscans and Dominicans etc. We know that father Polzer even admitted to two instances of priests being involved in mining; that the mission at Matape owned silver mines due to a debt by the former owner and that they were permitted to continue operating it; that the Baja California Jesuit mission fund also owned mines which helped to generate funds for their overall operation there. We have the accusations of Spaniards, Portuguese and bishop Palafox saying the Jesuits had rich silver mines. <Another bishop accused the Jesuits of having mines in Paraguay, but his name escapes me at this moment.> We know that the missions had to operate at a profit, they could not be operated at a loss indefinitely, so there was strong incentive for the padres to make use of what resources they might find in their regions, be they beaver skins (forbidden the Jesuits to trade in, yet in Canada they openly refused to obey) or running cattle or sheep, or pearl fishing or mining - to act as father Garces did on his arrival in Pimeria Alta was a sure road to mission failure. We know that the Jesuits repeatedly insisted on any kind of possibly controverial or negative information must be either not committed to paper, or to be written in codes. This is just what can be turned up; and it is surely more than a "very small hat" unless we are to ignore everything as if it were a queer, singular incident.
It is but a small step from doing a little prospecting, to doing a little mining, especially when you have hands ready to be put to work in the form of local Indios. Having seen the results of the Planchas de Plata discovery, would it have been wise for the priests to openly operate the mines, and run the risk of having them taken away? Are we to think that the padres would stand on top of fortunes in precious metals, and watch their Indios go naked in the cold?
Conviction is a powerful thing, when we become convinced something is true or false, it is very difficult to change that view for that balance has been tipped already. I don't understand the modern coverup that seems to be ongoing, when the Jesuits ought to be recognized for their pioneering work in prospecting, exploring, introducing wonderful things like wheat, cattle, fruits, as well as the gospel to vast areas of the Americas. Is mining (and prospecting) so dirty, so evil, that it would soil the reputation of those early padres, whose very lives were at stake on a daily basis? They certainly didn't personally benefit by becoming wealthy from the mission operations whether from livestock or lending money at interest, and being human beings I can't say for certain that every single one was a saint but their contribution to our common history is significant to say the least. Grant them the honors they are due, for their achievements, and likewise, recognize their faults and failings. History is history, warts and all.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, got to sign off for the night. I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend in "Dakota Territory"
Roy
You are quite correct about the casting of church bells in that era.
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