Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Awhile back, I got very involved in researching church bells. It had to do with some claims that were being made by a local Dutch Hunter concerning the San Jose Bell in New Mexico. In my opinion, my research went beyond casual.

Silver was not a major part of any church bells, designed to be rung. In most cases, I doubt it could even be called a minor part.

There is no doubt that the Indians picked up copper for the Jesuits to make church bells with. There was a foundry and retort at Tumacacori that was used for that purpose. They did not use any silver in the process. This was not at the original site of Tumacacori.

If that is your "proof" that the Jesuits used the Indians for mining, I would personally conceed the point. If you plan on hanging your hat on that argument, it should probably be a very small hat.

One other thing:

The nuns (the claristas) you referred to were affiliated with the Franciscans, not the Jesuits. You are quite correct about the casting of church bells in that era.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Awhile back, I got very involved in researching church bells. It had to do with some claims that were being made by a local Dutch Hunter concerning the San Jose Bell in New Mexico. In my opinion, my research went beyond casual.

Silver was not a major part of any church bells, designed to be rung. In most cases, I doubt it could even be called a minor part.

There is no doubt that the Indians picked up copper for the Jesuits to make church bells with. There was a foundry and retort at Tumacacori that was used for that purpose. They did not use any silver in the process. This was not at the original site of Tumacacori.

If that is your "proof" that the Jesuits used the Indians for mining, I would personally conceed the point. If you plan on hanging your hat on that argument, it should probably be a very small hat.

Take care,

Joe

Hmm - you see Father Och's admittance as only worthy of a very small hat? Let us see then, considering that this has become sort of a continuation of another thread that got very long if I can sum up the case; we have legends of lost Jesuit treasures and mines, most everywhere Jesuits operated and there are minerals; in the majority of these legends, despite common errors (like the bishop of Sonora rather than the bishop of Durango) they are fairly specific; not generalized. We know that the Jesuits were operating beyond the 'settled frontier' in the lands still occupied largely by 'wild' Indios; and that these same Jesuits were prospectors for they frequently mentioned the mineral wealth to be found in their districts.

We know that the Jesuits owned rather large amounts of real estate, vast herds of cattle, sheep, horses, etc on their expulsion; that their various colleges and missions were really only so-so at generating profits (in Mexico at least) in part due to the activities of the Seris and Apaches, for in a single raid a large amount of livestock could be lost. We know that Jesuits were often entrusted with the funds used to pay local soldiers of the missions; we know that the padres would hide the valuables (including the rather valuable ornaments of the church, like the large silver cross mentioned by father Och above) in times of trouble and that the Spanish expulsion did not go like a modern sting operation but they simply sent runners out to the more remote locations with orders for the padres to come in; we have the Jesuits own descriptions of the rich ornamentations of their missions, including even the small visitas that had no resident priests; and that these rich ornamentations were largely absent on their takeover by the Franciscans and Dominicans etc. We know that father Polzer even admitted to two instances of priests being involved in mining; that the mission at Matape owned silver mines due to a debt by the former owner and that they were permitted to continue operating it; that the Baja California Jesuit mission fund also owned mines which helped to generate funds for their overall operation there. We have the accusations of Spaniards, Portuguese and bishop Palafox saying the Jesuits had rich silver mines. <Another bishop accused the Jesuits of having mines in Paraguay, but his name escapes me at this moment.> We know that the missions had to operate at a profit, they could not be operated at a loss indefinitely, so there was strong incentive for the padres to make use of what resources they might find in their regions, be they beaver skins (forbidden the Jesuits to trade in, yet in Canada they openly refused to obey) or running cattle or sheep, or pearl fishing or mining - to act as father Garces did on his arrival in Pimeria Alta was a sure road to mission failure. We know that the Jesuits repeatedly insisted on any kind of possibly controverial or negative information must be either not committed to paper, or to be written in codes. This is just what can be turned up; and it is surely more than a "very small hat" unless we are to ignore everything as if it were a queer, singular incident.

It is but a small step from doing a little prospecting, to doing a little mining, especially when you have hands ready to be put to work in the form of local Indios. Having seen the results of the Planchas de Plata discovery, would it have been wise for the priests to openly operate the mines, and run the risk of having them taken away? Are we to think that the padres would stand on top of fortunes in precious metals, and watch their Indios go naked in the cold?

Conviction is a powerful thing, when we become convinced something is true or false, it is very difficult to change that view for that balance has been tipped already. I don't understand the modern coverup that seems to be ongoing, when the Jesuits ought to be recognized for their pioneering work in prospecting, exploring, introducing wonderful things like wheat, cattle, fruits, as well as the gospel to vast areas of the Americas. Is mining (and prospecting) so dirty, so evil, that it would soil the reputation of those early padres, whose very lives were at stake on a daily basis? They certainly didn't personally benefit by becoming wealthy from the mission operations whether from livestock or lending money at interest, and being human beings I can't say for certain that every single one was a saint but their contribution to our common history is significant to say the least. Grant them the honors they are due, for their achievements, and likewise, recognize their faults and failings. History is history, warts and all.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, got to sign off for the night. I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend in "Dakota Territory"
Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

The nuns (the claristas) you referred to were affiliated with the Franciscans, not the Jesuits

Demmitt Joe I was HOPING you wouldn't catch that!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe I posted --> Joe, you deserve an answer, but due to the sensitivity of it , I will only pm it, never to be revealed by you. ok?
*********
You have never agreed

Don Jose de La Mancha (Tropical Tramp)

" I exist to LIVE, not live to exist"

 

[ghostdog]

Interesting what you have to say about silver nuggets. I recently found a very interesting piece of ore , laced with silver nuggets, interlaced what looks like fine gold,and the backside is blue/black,with small to larger silver spots.I will post a photo,when I replace my broken camera. What is even just as interesting is I found it while cleaning a Las Vegas hotel room.
Usually I just find lost casino $ chips,joints,name-brand beer glasses,shoes,
tons of unopened beer/wine/hard liquor,and throw away clothes,name brand tennis rackets,etc.Anyways, I turned the ore into lost/found,nobody claimed it, in 2 weeks,and I got it back,realy shocked it wasn"t stolen from me,greed and scammers is beyond the pale here in Vegas,can"t wait to get out.

 

[Infosponge]

Good evening Lamar,

Dear Infosponge;
I took the liberty of contacting Ms. Olsen and I wrote to her the following email:
Dear Ms. Olsen;

Greetings! My name is Lamar and I have a legitimate question regarding a quote from a passage which was supposedly taken from a volume you authored entitled Slavery and Salvation in Colonial Cartagena de Indias. The quote in question can be found on Page 14 and is as follows:



"The Jesuit order was a major player in the slave trade, and by the time of their expulsion in 1767 were the largest slaveholders in the Americas.”



If this is in fact an actual quote taken from your book, it would please me greatly if you would be able to provide with your reference source material whereby you concluded that the Jesuits did indeed own slaves. Thank you for all kindness and consideration in this matter and I pray that I have not overly troubled you.

Your friend;

LAMAR


And now we wait my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Have you received a reply yet?

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Oroblanco]

Interesting what you have to say about silver nuggets. I recently found a very interesting piece of ore , laced with silver nuggets, interlaced what looks like fine gold,and the backside is blue/black,with small to larger silver spots.I will post a photo,when I replace my broken camera. What is even just as interesting is I found it while cleaning a Las Vegas hotel room.
Usually I just find lost casino $ chips,joints,name-brand beer glasses,shoes,
tons of unopened beer/wine/hard liquor,and throw away clothes,name brand tennis rackets,etc.Anyways, I turned the ore into lost/found,nobody claimed it, in 2 weeks,and I got it back,realy shocked it wasn"t stolen from me,greed and scammers is beyond the pale here in Vegas,can"t wait to get out.

What a cool thing to find! From your description it sounds almost like some of the famous "peacock" ore that came from several very rich gold mines including Homestake. I hope you aren't planning on tossing that out - even if you can't find out where it came from, such a nice specimen would look great in a mineral ore display!

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Seeing that our tireless, dauntless defender of the Society of Jesus, Lamar, has joined us in this thread, I should now officially don my Mr Anti-Jesuit cap.

<I hope that my stance as Anti-Jesuit will not be mistaken for anti-Catholic, heck I think the Jesuits are perhaps the greatest threat to the Catholic Church since the great schism, so in effect I will be working to protect Catholicism from a dangerous organization within the ranks. >

While we await Lamar's refutation of the Jesuits being the largest slaveholders in the Americas in 1767, I have a bit to add that is relevant. The existence of a Sister Micaela Molina has been questioned; there have been other Molinas of some importance in the Church, including Luis de Molina, a Jesuit priest of an earlier age and author of some important works. <New Advent web article online at:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10436a.htm
...which at least shows that the name Molina can be directly connected with the Jesuits of the colonial time.

Also, even though Mr West's documented instance of silver mines owned directly by the Jesuits was located in Matape & Tecoripa, why is it that father Nentvig, who seemed to have carefully included all the mines and mineral deposits of Sonora in his descriptions, only wrote this;

Tecoripa, at 28 degrees, 40 minutes latitude and 264 degrees, 56 minutes longitude, is twenty leagues northwest of Cumuripa and has Father Francisco Javier González in charge. It is a Pima [Baja] mission with two dependent missions: Suaqui ten leagues to the southeast midway on the road from Cumuripa, and San José de Pimas sixteen leagues west of Tecoripa.

Mátape* is a principal mission under the direction of Father Jacobo Sedelmayr at 29 degrees, 20 minutes latitude and 265 degrees, 8 minutes longitude and is twenty leagues north of Tecoripa. Its parishioners are Pimas, Eudebes, and Jovas. It has two dependent missions: Nácori two leagues to the southwest and Alamos seven leagues to the northwest. [It was at Mátape that the first Negro slaves were brought into the Sonora province in 1672–73 by Daniel Angelo Marras, S.J.]

No mention of the silver mines of the Jesuits. If we are to think that since they have so few records of Jesuit mines, that proves there were none, why is it that a documented case, is so clearly omitted by Father Nentvig, SJ? I say that this shows you what to expect - that the mines operated by the Jesuits for the benefit of the Order, Church or people of their missions, are deliberately omitted from (almost) all of their publications. Some records DID exist, and earlier treasure hunters have largely taken them from the various archives and missions where they could formerly be found - in the early days there were no photocopiers; modern historians, failing to find those very records, then conclude there never were any. These old records are mentioned by early treasure hunters, repeatedly; some in Spain, in Mexico City, and even at the missions in Arizona.

As an argument against the mines being un-discovered in the time of the Jesuits but attributable to later Franciscans or Spanish/Mexican miners, how then could we explain such expeditions as that of Dionysio Robles into the Santa Rita mountains in 1817, where he found old mines and mine workings, and obtained nice specimens of silver in the old shafts. The mines in the Santa Ritas were already OLD in 1817, when Spanish prospectors entered them. <See Hinton's Handbook> If they had not been discovered and worked by the Jesuits, whom had been in the Santa Ritas so long before 1817, with no records of their explorations or discoveries?

Oroblanco

 

[Infosponge]

Oroblanco,

You stated:

We know that the Jesuits owned rather large amounts of real estate, vast herds of cattle, sheep, horses, etc on their expulsion; that their various colleges and missions were really only so-so at generating profits (in Mexico at least) in part due to the activities of the Seris and Apaches, for in a single raid a large amount of livestock could be lost. We know that Jesuits were often entrusted with the funds used to pay local soldiers of the missions; we know that the padres would hide the valuables (including the rather valuable ornaments of the church, like the large silver cross mentioned by father Och above)

Just to keep the record straight, those valuable ornaments of the church including the large silver cross, were mentioned by Father Pfefferkorn, not Father Och. Father Pefefferkorn also referred to those valuable ornaments as “this church treasure.” Some how by the time of the expulsion that “church treasure” changed into a simple wood cross, wooden candlestick holders, etc., etc. It appears that someone took the water which had been turned into a fine wine, and decided it would be for the best to replace it with vinegar.

Oroblanco also stated the following:

Mr West's documented instance of silver mines owned directly by the Jesuits was located in Matape & Tecoripa, why is it that father Nentvig, who seemed to have carefully included all the mines and mineral deposits of Sonora in his descriptions, only wrote this;

Quote
"Tecoripa, at 28 degrees, 40 minutes latitude and 264 degrees, 56 minutes longitude, is twenty leagues northwest of Cumuripa and has Father Francisco Javier González in charge. It is a Pima [Baja] mission with two dependent missions: Suaqui ten leagues to the southeast midway on the road from Cumuripa, and San José de Pimas sixteen leagues west of Tecoripa.

Mátape* is a principal mission under the direction of Father Jacobo Sedelmayr at 29 degrees, 20 minutes latitude and 265 degrees, 8 minutes longitude and is twenty leagues north of Tecoripa. Its parishioners are Pimas, Eudebes, and Jovas. It has two dependent missions: Nácori two leagues to the southwest and Alamos seven leagues to the northwest. [It was at Mátape that the first Negro slaves were brought into the Sonora province in 1672–73 by Daniel Angelo Marras, S.J.]

Cactusjumper you wrote,

Infosponge,

I know you are addressing Lamar, but if you want to discuss Jesuit involvement with slavery in Maryland, IMHO, it should be moved to another topic.

We are discussing a specific area, Northern Mexico, and the possibility of Jesuit mining and treasure.

We have a whole new can of worms opened up here, where I believe the discussion of Jesuit slave ownership is warranted within this thread. It appears we have documented ownership of mines by the Jesuits, and Negro slaves being brought to those very locations by a Jesuit. (Daniel Angelo Marras, S.J.) Or, maybe it is just another one of those troublesome coincidences.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[gollum]

While I do keep Lamar on "IGNORE", I do view his posts occasionally. He is still doing the exact same thing that was the reason for which I put him on ignore in the first place.

As far as Jesuit Slaveholding, I shot off an email last night to my Jesuit Historian friend at Georgetown University. His answer further proves to me that Lamar is not as much of a scholar as he might seem.

I told my friend that in the process of researching other things, the subject of Jesuit Slaveholding keeps cropping up. I asked him what he thought about the subject.

His answer:

Hi Mike,
Yes, indeed, the Jesuits had slaves---for sure in the New World, but, as I recall, also in Europe. This is well documented and at least to some extent has been studied. I can't, however, at the moment give you any references but I'm almost sure those studies of the Jesuit plantations (not Reductions) in Latin America treat it. Slave-holding was taken as a fact of life.....the popes had slaves, principally to man their galleys, at least until the beginning of the 19th century. (See The Papacy: An Encyclopedia, 3 vols). Hope that helps!

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Ba-da-da-dum!!!

Interesting, Mike.

Though - in the light of honesty - many organizations - including some religious ones, have people specifically appointed to spend their lives
trying to dispel any considered "ugliness" among the ranks.

Germans have spent year upon year, having people who spend their lives trying to change history and making folks believe that the Holocaust never happened.

So it is with many of the "organized" societies and such. Priests caught mis-behaving have regularly been sent "away" to other places so that
the truth is not known, or at the very least - trying to get the truth buried beyond sight. The Church, the Roman Church, has done this on way too many occasions to mention. (and, since I am a born and raised Catholic, I've seen it myself, with my own eyes).

Maybe Lamar is one of those "no, it never happened" scholars.

Beth

 

[Infosponge]

Gollum stated,

While I do keep Lamar on "IGNORE", I do view his posts occasionally. He is still doing the exact same thing that was the reason for which I put him on ignore in the first place.

We must remember this forum is a place we have chosen to come together, and have an “open debate.” As such, I personally choose not to use the ignore option for Lamar nor anybody else for that matter. There is no doubt Lamar is well read, highly educated, and has selfishly shared his wealth of knowledge with us and continues to do so. My beliefs and my opinions are mine, just as your beliefs and your opinions are yours, and Lamar’s beliefs and Lamar’s opinions are his. It takes the collective knowledge of all, in order to have a spirited and lively debate. Now in Lamar’s case, I can understand your frustration. It might seem like you’re whipping a dead horse, or just plain beating your head against a wall when it comes to debating Jesuit mining, Jesuit treasures, or Jesuit slave ownership. One thing is readily apparent, Lamar’s faith is unshakable! Lamar has stated “I would like for it to be known that I am dedicated to protecting the faith, and as such, as long as there are no more anti-Catholic or anti-Jesuit statements made, I shall be content to let sleeping dogs lie.” Therefore, I for one will not question his faith, nor will I attack it. But it is my belief that Lamar’s opinion of things such as Jesuit slave ownership, can be shaken. I say that because Lamar has also stated the following: “I am not the collective conscious for the Society of Jesus, nor do I fully understand the Jesuit's position on slavery of that era.” It is my opinion that Lamar made that statement only after engaging in a rational debate. Of course that is nothing more than my opinion, and maybe it is nothing more than what makes a hot air balloon rise. Which is of course, a lot of hot air! So, lets all go forward while keeping the debate as lively and informative as possible, but lets also remember to do it in a civil manner.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[gollum]

Spongy,

You should search for the terms Jesuit Slavery and see just what Lamar has previously posted on the subject. I fear he will do exactly the same thing he has done in the past; wait until the next discussion of Jesuit Treasures and/or Slaveholding, then post something to the effect of "There is no legitimate evidence that the Jesuits ever owned slaves", just like he is doing now with evidence of Jesuit Wealth. He is a skipping record.

When it comes to debating, I have no problems with that. Ituss when I have to keep repeating the exact same thing over and over ad nauseum. Then, when confronted with incontrovertible evidence, he ignores the subject, then pretends to take offense at something you say. A convenient way to avoid admitting he was wrong.

THAT is why I put him on ignore. Absolutely everything he has to input on a subject has already been put in. All he does now is repeat the same tired arguments. Nothing personal. I just got sick and tired of repeating myself.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Ba-da-da-dum!!!

Interesting, Mike.

Though - in the light of honesty - many organizations - including some religious ones, have people specifically appointed to spend their lives
trying to dispel any considered "ugliness" among the ranks.

Germans have spent year upon year, having people who spend their lives trying to change history and making folks believe that the Holocaust never happened.

So it is with many of the "organized" societies and such. Priests caught mis-behaving have regularly been sent "away" to other places so that
the truth is not known, or at the very least - trying to get the truth buried beyond sight. The Church, the Roman Church, has done this on way too many occasions to mention. (and, since I am a born and raised Catholic, I've seen it myself, with my own eyes).

Maybe Lamar is one of those "no, it never happened" scholars.

Beth

Beth,

I doubt Lamar is one of those. I don't see any conspiracies in him. Just a lack or real knowledge. He does have plenty of "indoctrinated" knowledge of Catholic History. Its just that when he stretches outside his comfort zone (mining for instance), he makes large errors (like not understanding that gathering copper ggets is placer mining). He is so steadfast in his belief that he is all-knowing, he has a lot of trouble admitting when he is wrong.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Infosponge - muchas gracias for catching my error - Father Och was on my mind, I almost wish I could thank him for mentioning that he had his Indians gather his copper for him, and that it took several trips with eight mules. It certainly helps show that those 'legends' of Jesuit mines and using Indians to do it have some basis in fact.

The Matape mission silver mines may well be the very ones referred to by bishop Palafox in his letter, as it would be about the right time frame; and what a surprise that here the Jesuits introduced African slaves. Hmm. Pure coincidence? That glaring omission by Nentvig, shows us one thing - the Jesuits were not going to commit the facts on their mines to anything that the public could possibly read.

Among colonial plantations and mines, the reason why African slaves were brought at all was because the Indians would die off from the labor and treatment. Africans were stronger, they reasoned. Could it be that African slaves were brought to Matape, because the local Indian labor was proving to follow the usual pattern (dying off inconveniently)? Could it just be that those old Indian "legends" of having been forced to work in Jesuit mines is fact and not stories made up for tourists or to please gringo treasure hunters?

As for Lamar, I would say this is all a game for him - it almost looks as if his efforts are a part of the modern whitewashing job being done on the history of the Jesuits.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - Don Jose, if you are thinking what I suspect, yes I did think Tayopa is "the" silver mines referred to by Palafox. The time period is correct for Tayopa, close for Matape - perhaps Palafox knew of both *(or even more?)* in either case there seems little doubt that he knew of Tayopa.
Roy

 

[Cubfan64]

Just wanted to toss out this newspaper story I found in the 1902 Boston Globe. Any documented truth to the part about the Jesuit coming back to reclaim some "things?"

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"Joe, you deserve an answer, but due to the sensitivity of it , I will only pm it, never to be revealed by you. ok?"

You, of course, have my word that whatever you tell me will remain unrepeated......to anyone.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Hope all is well with you and the wife.

IMHO, the entire article you posted is pure fiction done by someoen who knew nothing about the actual Jesuit history of Tumacacori. It's availabe, and I would be happy to point you towards it, if you wish. That history is a great read, and someone like you would enjoy every minute of it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Joe,

Kinda figured it was fiction, but since I ran across it I thought I'd see if anyone knew more. I have so many books to read right now, I don't even know which way to turn :P. However if you want to point me towards some truly historical stories about Tumacacori, I'll add them to my list.

Right now I'm reading "A Land So Strange" which is an account of Cabeza De Vaca's incredible journey across the early United States. After that I have a book to read about Percy Fawcett's disappearance in the Amazon - I'll get to them all eventually, but it takes me time .