Truth about LDM?

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Santa Fe NM - I used to love Nimoy's series "In Search Of" and have that very episode on VHS tape. I won't say what I think of Milton Rose, <who makes an appearance in this episode> for he was a treasure hunter who did his share of hunting treasures and wrote about it. I can't get the other link to work, keeps causing some error on my PC so I have to re-boot - probably I need to get a new computer as this one has been giving me fits recently.

What you said is true amigo - we can agree to disagree, and trying to get a bunch of treasure hunters to agree on ANYTHING is quite a monumental task in itself! I have some "wild" ideas and theories of my own too, so don't get the impression that I want to start throwing stones.

My big problem with the Lost Dutchman is that danged gold ore - there have been at least 80 different people who have claimed to have found it, but only one had ore which (according to Tom Kollenborn, and I am aware folks have a problem with this too) seemed to match the ore found under the deathbed of Jacob Waltz. The great stories which have been woven into the Dutchman legend are super, makes for high drama and this is why Hollywood went to Barry Storm to make a movie on it <Lust For Gold starring Glenn Ford as the "Dutchman"> but there seems to be little to prove much of the stories ever really happened. The "other" version of Waltz is little publicized and much less dramatic, but I am convinced it is the true version. For the record, I don't make any profits for keeping the Lost Dutchman LOST either, and would love to see someone find it. Maybe I should start saying "yes I agree you have found the Lost Dutchman" for every one who claims to have found it, since I sure can't prove that ANY of them DIDN'T.

Good luck and good hunting Santa Fe NM and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco


Gosh I actually miss that desert. Must have some kind of mental affliction!

 

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[Springfield]

Oro, thanks for your rational approach to this legend ("an unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical"). It's the idea of the LDM that seems to have a life of its own and has spawned quite a nice cottage industry around it. The truth may never be known, but if it is, it will most likely be something different than the legend.

I tried to leave the southwest myself years ago, but once the hook is set, it just won't let go.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI CJ: Quit lurking in the background and post something

Don Jose de la Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I was waiting for you to post something first.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose & Cactusjumper, both of you have been rather quiet - hope all is well in both cases. What do you have to say on this? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

If you are asking me what I think of SFN's comments, I am out of that loop. I put him on "Ignore" awhile back. When someone comes on here with no othere purpose than to disrupt the conversations, I don't feel the need to read their nonsense. Got my fill of that with Bowman.

If you can find some value in his.....stuff, you're a better man than I. Might be wrong, but this guy smells like the "Lone Wolf". His ego will get in the way of any normal conversation, he will get mad, and be gone.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

If you can find some value in his.....stuff

Well, I am sure that many folks have a lot of trouble trying to find some kind of value in MY stuff too, so I can't start flinging stones on that account! I think his claims are interesting at minimum, though a sample of that durned ore would have gone much farther along the way to convince me - I can't prove he has not found the LDM any more than I could prove BB was not a shaman. Trying to disprove anything is generally more difficult than proving positive, so I am left with having to say respectfully "un-convinced". I was curious what you thought of Santa Fe NM's statements and evidence but as you have him on ignore (with reasons explained) it is academic.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I look forward to reading your posts, and find a great deal of value in the reading. We all kid around and say some foolish things, but that's only amusing for a short time. Some of these guys make a career of it.

Like I said, you're just a better man than I am.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Gosh Joe thanks for the very kind words, but I really feel that I am getting the better part of the deal in our discussions from the information YOU post. Not to dismiss the posts of our other friends here either, for many of our friends have been virtual "founts" of information. I have learned a great deal from you Joe, and from our friends as well. Just in the example of the Peralta stones, I learned more in a few weeks discussion (and the research I found myself doing) than I had known about them in the 20 years previous.

I don't like being the "wet blanket" when we get talking about the Lost Dutchman, and there is some value in the legends themselves even if utterly based on fantasy - for entertainment if nothing else.

I am (personally) convinced the Lost Dutchman mine is very real, but that the true story of its discovery and subsequent history are far less filled with drama or characters; what we are left with even so is still quite a story. (personal opinion) The vanishing of Adolph Ruth, the mystery of Walt Gassler and his "sons" not to mention the personal tragedies of Julia and the Petrasches or the real gunfight of Piper etc let alone the life of Waltz makes for quite a study. Even without any Peraltas, Jesuits or Templars.

That ore just keeps bothering me. I have heard it said that Waltz's ore must have been a hand picked sample, maybe even "highgraded" by removing the non-gold bearing quartz. Porterie's assay showed Waltz's ore to be worth $110,000 per ton at the old $20.67/oz price, so it seems natural that folks would have doubts about it, but in fact this is not THAT remarkable. Waltz or someone later may have claimed the mine was the "richest gold mine on Earth" but by comparison with some other mines it is not SO rich. Ore from the Lost Cement mine (CA) was said to be one-fourth to two thirds gold, even at one fourth it is richer than Waltz's ore; here in the black hills several mines had ore which would match Waltz's ore, one in fact was 80% gold and proved not to be just a tiny pocket, the finder (another Dutchman as luck would have it) sold several RR car loads of it which made him quite wealthy. There are quite a few mines around the world which produced ores of incredible richness. If only someone would come up with a piece of ore that matches Waltz's ore, I could readily accept their claim to have found the Lost Dutchman mine. Unfortunately this may well NEVER happen.

That same ore keeps giving me the idea to go back to those Superstition mountains one more time, there are still places we have never looked and with luck........but back in reality I think I would be just as happy if someone else would find it and settle it forever. Then perhaps that pretty ore would quit bothering me!

Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Everyone,

I will repeat Joe's statement here that it is a FACT tested via Electron Dispersal Attachment to a Scanning Electron Microscope. The ore from under Waltz' Bed IS NOT remotely similar to known ore samples from the Vulture Mine. I wish people would do a little more research before rehashing this dead horse!

SFN,

I know a good deal more than most about Jesuits in the New World during Spanish Colonial Times (1608-1767). The Jesuits OFFICIALLY had no claims on ANY metal or mineral mines in the New World. They were forbidden to mine. There is also no known evidence of them doing anything like that in the areas you speak of. Unless you have found some heretofore unknown documentary evidence to the contrary, I will have to call BS.

As far as Leonard Nimoy, there have been MANY additions to our knowledge of the LDM since the 1970s. You need to research some more modern known facts regarding Jacob Waltz, his life, his words, and the facts surrounding him.

Best-Mike

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

EVERYONE THIS SUMS IT ALL UP: (((('n' it's all right now, learned my lesson well
You see, ya can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself)))) HAPPY THANKS GIVING EVERYONE

 

[Springfield]

... That ore just keeps bothering me. I have heard it said that Waltz's ore must have been a hand picked sample, maybe even "highgraded" by removing the non-gold bearing quartz. Porterie's assay showed Waltz's ore to be worth $110,000 per ton at the old $20.67/oz price, so it seems natural that folks would have doubts about it, but in fact this is not THAT remarkable. ...

That's right, Oro. The alleged LDM ore is primo to be sure, but if you've ever been around the mining business, you've seen lots of samples just as rich or richer. In the 19th century, even more so, since the easy-to-mine surface deposits were often quartz veins with gold showing. All the ore from small lode deposits is hand-cobbled due to the obvious transportation issues (especially during the 19th century when roads and vehicles were non-existant). Therefore, the richness of the assay reports is heavily skewed and may or may not relate directly to the 'richness' of the lode itself for many reasons that should be self-evident. A jackass prospector may have worked six months and moved two hundred tons of rock to accumulate a hundred pounds of picture rock with no end of the ore in sight when he quit. Or, he may have worked a week and cobbled the same quantity and quality of ore from two tons of material before it pinched out entirely. Which mine is 'richest' based on the ore samples? Same applies to placer mining, which usually yields an essentially pure gold stash. Did the panner get his ten pounds of placer by working two years on a decent deposit, or did he get it in a weekend?

As far as the scientific comparison of Waltz's ore not matching any other known ore samples - all this tells us is that the source of Waltz's ore has not been determined. All assumptions as to its location are based on hearsay and the trail is mighty cold and even more unverifiable. Nice ore, though.

 

[alaskabill]

OK,

There has been lot's of talk about the Dutchman's ore sample assay. Has that assay ever been published or a copy made available for anyone to see?

I haven't read all the books about the LDM but do not recall seeing the assay and would very much like to view a copy.

Thanks in advance for any references.

Bill

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Truth about LDM? <Long reply post>

Thank you Springfield for your thoughtful response. As the subject of this thread is the "truth about the LDM" I wish to address what this truth could be.


There are several possibilities for the true origins of that beautiful gold ore Waltz had. Perhaps he had his own mine, perhaps he was simply stealing from someone else's. In either case the mine remains un-located at least as far as I can tell, basing this on the single requirement of a matching ore sample.

The numerous "clues" to find the Lost Dutchman may or may not be of any assistance in identifying the actual mine. What appears certain is that "clues" from SEVERAL different gold deposits have become fuddled together, partly by treasure writers who love to lump such things together - occasionally to a long stretch of the imagination. The black gold quartz of Apache Jack for instance, with gold spots "like stars" is pretty obviously NOT one and the same with Waltz's ore, and I will go out on a limb to say it is most likely an epithermal vein or ledge, which probably did not run to any appreciable depth. Such a deposit could very easily be mined out and depleted, leaving nothing of great value for a treasure hunter to find. Any "clues" which are connected with Apache Jack's gold then we ought to disregard as un-related to the Lost Dutchman, <personal opinion of course>.

The pink (rose) quartz of Wagoner's ledge is also likely NOT the same vein as Waltz's simply because it is rose quartz while Waltz's ore is white. There are variations in color within any gold bearing quartz, but not generally running white AND rose in the same vein, the colors coming from the chemical compositions of the quartz. Wagoner's story is little documented, being largely from recollections of witnesses so the skeptics dismiss it anyway, but it is possible that Wagoner's ledge is one and the same with the clues which mention rose quartz. Wagoner supposedly planted trees to help locate his mine, so along with the other "clues" associated with it, <personal opinion> these can be disregarded.

Then there is the story of the Mexican woman who remembered her husband mining in the Superstitions, and "winnowing" the gold with a blanket in the wind, the gold being in grains the size of wheat - this is a good description of a dry placer mine and old dry placer mining methods, which is likely not related to the Lost Dutchman, though it is possible his mine had a rich dry placer associated and this may be the way he discovered it. (See "Pioneer Interviews" with old-timers of Florence Arizona, Phoenix library if memory serves). It seems likely that if this Mexican had winnowed out placer gold close to a vein of gold, he would have located the vein, so the clues associated with this story can probably be disregarded <personal opinion again>.

I will add a word here on Adolph Ruth, for his maps and clues associated with Ruth are so often tied with the Lost Dutchman legend. Ruth himself did not claim that his maps led to the Lost Dutchman mine at all - they were gifts from grateful Mexicans; Ruth, on talking to the various "prospectors" and drifters hanging around at the Barkley ranch, it was only AFTER these somewhat questionable characters TOLD Ruth that "it must be the Lost Dutchman" that Ruth simply went along with their statements. There is no other reason to make this connection. As sad and dramatic as Ruth's story is, I do not see any real reason to try to connect this with Jacob Waltz and his mine.

We could go on here with various other stories from the Superstitions, but basically in my opinion the various "clues" have very little value for assistance in finding Jacob Waltz's mine, though they may be useful AFTER finding the mine for comparisons. Even without a single clue however it should be possible to find his mine, for someone (I believe Waltz) found it in the first place and gold deposits are found mostly by basic prospecting techniques, so it should work even in this case of long standing. So geologically speaking, where would be the best place to start?

The Superstition mountains are not a promising location to prospect for gold. They are largely volcanic in origins, with calderas etc the type of rock not known to be gold bearing. Rich gold deposits DO occur in close association with volcanic calderas, including the type which appears to be what Waltz's is - the deeply-formed type known as "hypothermal" and this type while rare in Arizona, rarely if ever occurs in small pockets, generally forming deep veins or "chimney" type deposits of great richness. Side note here, I do not know of a single incidence of a hypothermal gold deposit being shallow or small pocket, there is one in California which comes to mind, in which the vein seemed to be a "lense" on the side of a canyon, but the rest of the vein was some years later discovered on the other side of the same canyon after a landslide un-covered it. Now I could well be mistaken on the type of Waltz's ore being hypothermal, and others are free and welcome to disagree. However the fact that quite rich gold, silver and copper deposits have been discovered north and east of the Superstitions ought to encourage a treasure hunter or prospector. <Both of these regions were considered a part of the same mountain range in the early days, known as the Salt River mountains or "Montana Espuma" etc. This is important for a Dutch-hunter to keep in mind.>

We know that Waltz pointed to the Superstition mountains when telling his friends where the mine was, though this could cover a larger area than we refer to (today) as the Superstitions. To the east and north of the wilderness area in fact, some of the richest mines ever discovered in Arizona are located. The one "clue" which seems the worst (or best) for misleading many treasure hunters was Waltz's statement about a "pointed peak". Most assume this to be Weaver's Needle, which lies in a most un-promising area of the Superstitions and inside the wilderness area, but it is hardly the only "pointed peak" in the region - there are at least two others which are in considerably more promising areas. Four Peaks is another landmark often cited, and again this un-mistakable mountain is visible over a vast area including several other "pointed peaks".

As the areas around the Silver King (east of the wilderness) and Goldfield (north of the wilderness) have been heavily prospected, it seems unlikely that Waltz's mine is close to either site - however even in areas which have been gone over pretty thoroughly by experienced prospectors, it is possible for deposits to remain undetected.

On the other hand, Waltz could have had a mine up in the Bradshaws or even in California, though we would then wonder why he would tell his close friends to look in the Superstitions, or for that matter why he didn't simply remain in either place so as to be close enough to his mine to enable him to make visits if he should need more money. If Waltz was simply stealing the ore from someone else's mine (as Phipps was doing) this mine is still the object of our search.

AlaskaBill wrote

here has been lot's of talk about the Dutchman's ore sample assay. Has that assay ever been published or a copy made available for anyone to see?

If you are referring to the assay done by Joe Porterie for Dick Holmes, no I don't think this has been made public; another assay done by Dr Glover has been published in his book, perhaps one of our members here would scan and post the results online if it would not be copyright infringement?

My apologies for the very long post, this aspect of the ore and where it originated being a "pet"subject for myself I get carried away on it very easily. Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

Oro said:

If you are referring to the assay done by Joe Porterie for Dick Holmes, no I don't think this has been made public; another assay done by Dr Glover has been published in his book, perhaps one of our members here would scan and post the results online if it would not be copyright infringement?

The red highlighted portion is actually not quite accurate Oro. While there is a chapter in Dr. Glover's book focusing on a non-destructive analytical test of various sources of ore including at least some samples of what is believe to be Waltz's ore, the results of that analysis are not included. There are conclusions drawn and comparisons made, but an actual analytical data sheet with elements and %'s are not provided.

Some things remain secrets

 

[Oroblanco]

Muchas gracias amigo Cubfan for the correction - I do not own Dr Glover's books (they are on my short list of course, to add as funds are available) and was posting based on what someone told me is in his book. I do not know what types of tests Dr Glover had done, but if it was a spectrographic analysis type of test, these are fairly accurate and are often referred to as "assays" even though not the same as an actual fire assay.

Now I think of it, some years ago I was told that a copy of Porterie's assay is floating around somewhere, in the possession of a long-time Dutch hunter who might be willing to show it. As I do not know the name of the person, whom also owns at least one piece of the "jewelry" ore from Waltz, I can't help to locate the copy.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Cubfan,

I do have both of Tom's Books on the LDM. As I stated previously for Beth, testing was done via a Scanning Electron Microscope with attached Electron Dispersal Reading Attachment. Basically this bombards the sample and the electrons that are released from the ore are sampled and read, with levels of electrons shown as spikes on a graph (the bigger the spike the more electrons present).

The graph below was from Tom's first LDM Book. It was the tested ore sample from the Black Queen Mine (one of the storied possibilities of the sources of LDM Ore). For whatever reason, he decided not to publish the sample from the known Waltz Ore, but the fact that he published this result, means that he has the same graph for the Waltz Ore Test.

He used to hang around one of the LDM Forums, but they don't have a Forum on that site any more:

http://www.lostdutchmanmines.com/index.html

I will email him and ask if he minds releasing the Waltz Ore Test Results.

Best-Mike

 

[ghostdog]

Questions, to owners of the ,{ ring and lighter},decorated with the so called Waltz ore.
1- Do the ores on both jewlery pieces match each other ?
2-What proof can you provide that the ore on these items are the so called Waltz"s Unique Ore ?
If provinonce cannot be provided, then can these items not also be lumped in the same catagory as lets say the Peralta Stones and Stone Crosses"s.
3-Is the ore on these items match any other existing ore that is curreently known ?
Thanks in advance.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I'm definitely not the owner of any of the items mentioned, but comparing them to the Peralta Stones is absurd.

The matchbox is of a gold ore that matches NOTHING else found, except for what Walt Gassler had, and a few pieces of jewelry (I think cufflinks), and one or two other pieces.

The ring (the picture shown on this forum) is of an unknown mystery source, known to a few members.

I would think the differences between LDM gold and the Peralta Stones would be obvious. Most people know that an expert can tell you exactly where a piece of gold comes from - gold from North California does not look like gold from Southern California, which does not look like Alaska gold, which does not look like Georgia gold, which doesn't look like any other gold. The identification of gold ore has many people who are able to tell you what ore came from what mine in what state.

The Peralta Stones? Nothing - nothing at all, can be ascertained.

So the differences can be enlightening indeed - identifying ore is an exact science - geology. The Peralta Stones and other stones, are nothing more than guessing and beliefs at this point in time. We cannot even get an exact age. We know, for absolutely sure that the stones are old - all stones are old - the carving on them is a whole 'nother thing.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Good morning Beth,

Dr. Elizabeth Miksa, of Desert Archaeology Inc., believed the stones came from two locations, Coconino and the Mogollon Rim.

The carvings, as you say, is "nother thing".

Take care,

Joe