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[BILL96]

I always asscoiated slag with iron processing and not gold or silver( but i'm probably wrong). I don't imagine they used any sort of cyanide leaching similer to what is done today, but I have read where quick silver was available and this is certainly a "non" slag process.
Thanks, Bill

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI CJ: I wasn't making any comment on your post other then attempting to clarify for the others just what slag is and why. Sheehs CJ , sniff, I DO read your posts.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

FURNACES ARE HOT TOPIC
(from the ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER, May 12, 1988)
by
Toni Mazzacane
Just because something is written in a history book doesn't necessarily mean it's true. That's what two Orange County men set out to prove when they each began studying two brick furnaces at the Mission San Juan Capistrano. The two combined their efforts a year and a half ago, and their findings will send California history books back to the printers for revision.

T.J. Koppenaal, a metallurgist and private consultant, and Nicholas Magalousis, an archaeology professor at Chapman College in Orange, documented that the furnaces were used for the production of wrought iron instead of tallow, proving that native Orange County Indians were more sophisticated than previously believed.

Historians had mislabeled the furnaces as a type of tallow-oven used by Indians in candle- and coap-making. It was assumed that all major metalwork performed during the Mission Period (1769-1812) took place in Mexico and that the finished product was traded to the missions along the California coast Koppenaal said.
The two researchers were recognized Friday by the American Society for Metals for their finding at a ceremony at the mission. The furnaces are the only existing metalworking furnaces in the chain of 21 California missions. A pleaque will be mounted near the furnaces, distinguishing them as an American Society for Metals historical landmark. Only seven or eight such appointments are made in the U.S. each year.

Koppenaal's curiosity got him started on his research 10 years ago. At the time, he was working for Ford Aerospace in Newport Beach. In his spare time he started looking into the origin of metalworking in California, he said. "It started with my interest as a metallurgist. It was a labor of love," Koppenaal said.

After reading dozens of books on the subject, he found that California had gone directly from the Stone Age to the Iron Age almost overnight. He set out to establish whether the missions had any evidence supporting that and to see for himself if ironwork was done at the missions. After finding out about the two furnaces at the Mission San Juan, he suspected they had been used for metalworking. He began to study ironwork in Spain and was able to identify and document that the furnaces were identical to a Catalin Forge, a furnace developed in the eighth century in the Catalonia region of Spain, he said.

The Spaniards began settling California in 1769. They brought blacksmiths from Mexico with them and trained Indians to use the furnaces, Koppenaal said. He contacted missions officials a year and a half ago to tell them of his findings. To Koppenaal's surprise, Magalousis, who is also the museum director at the mission, had also been involved in an archaeological study in which he was trying to prove that the furnaces were, in fact, used for metalworking.

"It was exciting because you had two researchers coming up with the same or very similar findings. I was encouraged that we were on the right track," Magalousis said. His investigations began in 1981. He was teaching archaeology at Chapman and Santa Ana colleges. An "extremely bright" student approached him, wanting to do extra work. The student wanted to do a project that was meaningful to history, Magalousis said.

He had the student, Scott McLeod, look into his suspicion that the furnaces at the mission had been mislabeled. Magalousis thought the furnaces were highly technical items for the area that at the time was considered frontier. McLeod began excavating slag samples of the furnaces and the areas surrounding them. The slides were examined by a professor at Chapman for their chemical content. The results proved that iron ore was used in the furnaces.

McLeod has since gone on to continue his studies in archaeology at the University of London, but Magalousis and Koppenaal worked together to continue gathering enough documentation to have their findings accepted by the academic world. And Friday's recognition isn't the end of their investigations. "We are on the threshold of exciting California history in this town," he said.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gentlemen,

There are some important points, which are germane to our subject, in this article. I highlighted them to save some time, and to make sure they were not overlooked. I don't really want to come back and rehash the thing.

1. "began studying two brick furnaces at the Mission San Juan Capistrano".

Here we establish that, at least, one mission had brick furnaces which could be used for smelting ore.

2. "documented that the furnaces were used for the production of wrought iron".

Here we establish that the furnaces were used for metalwork.

3. "It was assumed that all major metalwork performed during the Mission Period (1769-1812) took place in Mexico and that the finished product was traded to the missions along the California coast Koppenaal said."

Here we establish the rather important assumption that, metal products were produced in Mexico to be used in trade with the missions in California.

4. "They brought blacksmiths from Mexico with them and trained Indians to use the furnaces, Koppenaal said".

Here it is shown that the Indians may have been trained by blacksmiths from Mexico, to use the furnaces and create metal objects.

5. "McLeod began excavating slag samples of the furnaces and the areas surrounding them. The slides were examined by a professor at Chapman for their chemical content. The results proved that iron ore was used in the furnaces."

Here we establish that producing wrought iron from iron ore, may leave deposits of slag.

One only needs to change the location of this study to your mission, to explain what was claimed to be found there.

Do you assume the furnaces in San Juan Capistrano were actually used to process gold and silver, and this study is flawed? If not, do you see where there could be another explanation for your slag pile?

Anyone figured out the connection between Spanish tile and slag?

None of this means you are wrong in your assumptions. It means there are other possibilities.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

If you get a copy of the book, the Index will take you to the answers you are looking for. The illustrations are fantastic and were made using "woodcuts".

The book was first printed in 1556....in Latin. If you want that first printing, it will run you around $60,000.
It was published after Argricola's death. The book was translated into English in 1912 by Herbert Hoover......
Yes, that Herbert Hoover. If you want a signed first edition by President Hoover, the price drops drastically......Around $20,000 for a nice copy.

Not to worry, as there are many very reasonable copies out there. I think around ten bucks and up.

If you don't care to buy a copy of the book and have a specific question, I will be happy to look up Agricola's answer for you.

Joe

 

[gollum]

You can also download a copy of it on my personal website http://1oro1.com Just click on the REFERENCES Tab, and click on HISTORICAL REFERENCE BOOKS.

The site is far from finished, but is up and running. I have several gigabytes (so far) of Military Field Manuals, Historical Maps, and Historical Books. They are all digitized and collected from many places. Some of them, I digitized myself, but most are found in various libraries and online sources.

I probably won't be able to complete it for about a month (new job), but it still has a LOT of resources that you can't find anywhere else. I'll give TNetters a first look.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
In the production of clay tiles the only by-products are ashes, if they were fired from wood, charcoal or coal burning kilns, and lots of broken tiles! Millions of them! There are so many broken tiles in the process that the broken pieces were and still are, used as gravel on dirt roads. There are brick and tile factories everywhere here and most of them are still using the same methods that the Spanish colonists did. Making bricks and tiles does not produce and slag by-products that I am aware of.

Gold and silver smelting does produce any large amounts of ferrous slag either. If there is a site with large mounds of ferrous slag (slag which can be detected with a metal detector, although not necessarily magnetic in nature) , then it's fairly obvious that someone was mining and smelting iron in the immediate vicinity.

To the early settlers, iron was vastly more important than gold or silver, because it was used in the production of practically EVERYTHING! Back during the missionary times everything had to be produced by hand and this production involved long hours and back breaking labor. Iron was the key to the success of the Spanish colonists, my friends. Everything from the simplest nails to the most complex plow shares had to shaped and forged on the anvil and this was quite an operation. Casting foundries were also not unheard of and the larger iron deposits almost always had a foundry operation nearby.

Producing wrought iron goods produces a form of slag known as scale and this form of slag is most generally long, or very wide, thin slivers. These slivers, since they were subjected to very intense heat, are brittle and lacking a high carbon content, they do not corrode (rust) readily and in the proper conditions, such as a desert environment, they can remain for decades or centuries before they dissolve into a form of black sands. This type of slag is very common in and around blacksmith shops, with the highest concentrations being in the immediate vicinity of the anvil(s).

If one has ever witnessed a piece of iron being removed from a forge in a white hot, or red hot, state, then shaped, either by hammer blows or by bending, the outermost peice of the iron sheds a thin layer. Often, with iron being struck by a hammer, sparks are also produced. This is the slag which is being shed from the iron.

It has been assumed that most missions in the New World had at least limited access to iron deposits, as the lives of the missionaires, and the mission itself, depended on iron as much as they depended on a constant supply of water. If the iron deposit was located far from the settlements, then a smelter would be set up close to the mine and and the iron would then be formed into large ingots, now known as pig iron, and then shipped via wagons to the settlements to be further refined and used to produce all the necessary products used in the settlements.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
As an aside, I do believe that the bulk of the book De Re Metallica was translated from Latin into English by Herbert Hoovers' wife, Lou Henry Hoover, who, aside from being a geologist, was also a very highly regarded Latinist. Herber Hoover, who was a mining engineer and a very successful one at that, together with Lou Henry translated the book by Gerg Bauer (his Latinized pen name was Georigius Argicola, which is he wrote under) translated the text into English around 1912, 16 years before he was elected President.

All in all, it is a very authoritive text and it provides the reader with valuable insights into the state of mining, from the time it was written, until at least the later 1700s and even later in some regions of the world. It is the foremost book written on mines and minerals at that time and from it a researcher can determine if an old mine in question was in fact native or European in nature. This sets the timeframe of the diggings in question to pre-Colombian or Colombian era.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good Morning Lamar Peeps: I might add that many of the chemicals and techniques of "fire assaying" in De Re Metalica are still used today.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[lamar]

Dear Real de Tayopa;
Yes, the fire assay method as described in De Re Metallica is still used, unchanged, today, as well the basic shoring methods, etc. In fact, all modern mining laws can traces their roots back to this fantastic volume of wealth and knowledge. Perhaps the biggest reason why De Re metallica remains as a *must read* work on mining and mining operations is because it was so far advanced. Also, I find De Re Metallica to be thought provoking as well as highly entertaining. Agricolas' repeated apologies to Mother Earth indicate his thorough embrace of the Renascence periods' shift in attitude towards our world which was sweeping across Germany at that time and it may be stated that Agricola was perhaps the worlds' first environmentalist.

There is also one more interesting bit of trivia about Agricola and the book De Re Metallic. One of the most rare and prized copies of De Re Metallic is currently housed at the Francisician Library (it figures ) in Kresevo, Bosnia. For those interested in reading Georgius Argicolas' book, De Re Metallic, it may be downloaded and viewed online, in Latin, at:

http://archimedes.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/toc/toc.cgi?step=thumb&dir=agric_remet_001_la_1556

For those unfortunate members who happen to be non-Latin speakers amongst us , Herbert and Lou Henry Hoover's English translation of the full text may be viewed and/or downloaded here:

http://www.farlang.com/gemstones/agricola-metallica/page_001

The book is a wonderful research tool and it remains one of the classical authoritive texts on mines and minerals.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

Perhaps you will just take my word for the fact that slag is not a byproduct of making clay roofing tiles.

Is it possible that it was used in the tile itself, or in the production of bricks or mortar?

Just curious.......

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HOLA CJ: you said------->

Perhaps you will just take my word for the fact that slag is not a byproduct of making clay roofing tiles.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
N O P E !


he he he heh
==============================================================


Is it possible that it was used in the tile itself, or in the production of bricks or mortar?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Possible yes, but prob not practical. The reduction of the slag would reqauire conisderably more work.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
The old type of mortar that was used before Portland cement was introduced is quicklime mortar, and it was produced quite easily. Limestone was fired in a kiln to produce the quicklime, then water was added to it to make slaked lime, then it was mixed with sand to make mortar.

To further answer your question, slag is the by-product from purifying metals. It is an oxidation process, which is just a fancy name for extremely rapid corrosion. Depending on the metal being purified, it is most generally comprised of silicates (glass) and may contain trace amounts of the native metal be purified, along with trace amounts of other minerals.

To answer your question yet further, slag is not a by-product of the natural clay object industry, such as is used in the production of clay pots, tiles or bricks.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Jose,

The reduction of the slag only requires rapid cooling with water.

Lamar,

I have done everything but paint a picture here. I have not said slag is a byproduct from the making of tiles, brick or mortar.

Your explanation of how slag and cement is created, was correct but superficial as it relates to this subject. Accepting the first information you pull up on the internet will not show the connection. Your comments on my question concerning the difference between rules and precepts, and the importance of that difference to Jesuit mining followed a similar path. Your lengthy replies gave a wealth of information on the Jesuits, but made no attempt to answer my question. I imagine it's one of the reasons for the removal of so many posts, having nothing to do with the question of Jesuit mining.

"A rule expressed a norm of conduct or procedure that could be dispensed with in case of necessity or with proper permission. A precept was not as easily dispensed from because it bound a subject under pain of sin against his vow of obedience. Because a precept was considered a moral command, no room was left for ignorance of the precept; the balance heavily favored scrupulous obedience."

Taking the above quote, from "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain" by Father Charles W. Polzer....pg. 27, it seems prudent to consider the mind set towards obedience that the Jesuits lived by.

The first question would be, was this a rule or precept?

"No one will work mines. this includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge of interpretations that could even fall within the same precept."

There were two (2) clues in there.

The next question might be: Were the Jesuits the kind of men who would be inclined to ignore a precept? You should use the Father Polzer quote from above to assist in that judgement. A knowledge of the commitment and character of the Jesuit Missionaries would also be helpful. That can be found in their letters, diaries, books and manuscripts.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
There's no need for me to pull information off of the Internet, my friend. I live in Bolivia and they still make bricks and mortar the very same way the Spanish colonists did. In fact they still do most everything the same way that the colonists did, therefore I am living among a living history and nooooooooooooooooooooooooo I do not need to use the Internet. I've done all of this research YEARS before the Net was popular. I did it the old fashioned way, by hanging around archives and libraries and living among the people whose history I am curious about. Living in Spain during my formative years and having access to most of the National archives there, coupled with an excellent memory, serves me well to this day.

To answer your question, no, the Jesuits were not, are not, and will not be inclined to ignore a precept. I hope this answer is clear enough.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
As to your first question:

"No one will work mines. this includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly."

This is most definitely a rule as it is not found in the precetual body. And I am unaware of any such rule having been in place and imposed on the Jesuit Order, or any other Order, at any time during history.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

Thanks for your reply. You only need to look back through our posts to see how long it took you to give any semblance of a reply.

I appreciate your answer concerning the construction methods of Bolivia, but we are talking about
SONORA, MEXICO and, specifically, the 1500s through the 1700s. What we are looking for, is another explanation for the slag found at the mission foundry, besides the gold and silver/treasure assumption.

It seems, rather than reading my posts as they are written, everyone wants to read in their own meanings.

Could the slag have been a byproduct of the Jesuits/Indians production of metal artifacts....for their own use, as well as for trade to the other missions?

Could the slag have been used in the production of tiles, bricks and mortar?

If the answers to those questions are YES, where are the same connections to a secret, hidden Jesuit treasure? Those are concrete, pardon the pun, connections as opposed to......it's just gotta be! While both are possible, only one has documented history on it's side.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

"This is most definitely a rule as it is not found in the precetual body. And I am unaware of any such rule having been in place and imposed on the Jesuit Order, or any other Order, at any time during history."

The fact that you are "unaware of any such rule", only means that you have not researched the rules and precepts and how they were disseminated among the Jesuit missions of northwestern New Spain during the 1600s and 1700s.

Perhaps things were different in Bolivia.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
As I previously stated, I am unaware of any such rules being in existence. If you are able to provide any factual ACCURATE documented proof in this regard, please feel free to do so. I am only interested in actual filed documentation, my friend and I would greatly appreciate you shedding a ray of light on this subject. Since Bolivia was a part of the Spanish colonies, there is sure to be a copy of any and all such documentation close at hand that I can research. Thank you.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
If a site has a discernable slag heap, then yes, there is factual proof of some sort of mining activity having taken place in the area. Whether the slag heap is from the period of the Spanish missionaries needs to determined by other evidence. if the slag heap in question is in fact from the Colonial period, then yes, it's pretty certain that mining was taking place during that period. This in itself means nothing, my friend. Without documented proof that:
"No one will work mines. this includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly."
then the evidence of slag heaps means nothing. This is exactly why I would question the authenticity of such a document, when iron and other minerals were so vital to the lives of the early settlers. To prohibit them from mining any minerals is nearly the same as imposing a sentence on them my friend. Also, secular regulations were not imposed regionally in the New World by the Royality of Spain. They were imposed for everyone, all of the Kings' subjects, as it were.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

"If a site has a discernable slag heap, then yes, there is factual proof of some sort of mining activity having taken place in the area."

It is never a good idea to make such broad assumptions.

For one such example of why that might be true in this case, you should study the early history of
La Isabela. In the process, you will find that slag was found there, indicating the earliest finding and processing of silver ore.........Not so fast. Further research showed that the ore did not come from a local source. Rather it was shown to have been brought over from Europe.

Joe