Treasure Signs and Symbols 101

[Springfield]

OK, springfield, please allow me to lay it out in it's most elementary fashion.

1-- A group of Spanish folks are following a trail; knowing all of the signs to look for.
2-- They find a trail marker / monument and spot all of the necessary marks and symbols.
3-- They see a sign that says "reverse what you see".
4-- The easiest way to view the whole layout would be to face away from the spot and hold a mirror up
to shoulder lever and look at the mirror's reverse image for those SPECIAL marks such as rangler
found by using PhotoShop to reverse the image.

Now, I am PREsuming that the Spanish did not have PhotoShop to perform that little chore; so, what would be the simplest way they could accomplish that reversed image? The only answer I could come up with was....................(drum roll please).........................a MIRROR. When you asked if I was kidding; I then explained the history of the mirror and that, most likely, they used a polished metal mirror due to the expense and fragility of GLASS mirrors.

Anything else you need help with, Spring??

Yes, Stack, thanks. Answer me these:

1) You guys see hundreds, if not more, 'Spanish treasure signs', 'monumented treasure trails' and 'Jesuit cache signs' all over TX, NM, AZ, CO, UT, OK, CA and points well beyond. Tell me, where is the evidence of the mining that had to have occurred to warrant all these 'signs', mostly found in unmineralized country?

2) Who were these 'Spanish miners' who found all this gold in North America? There weren't even enough experienced people on the Mexican northern frontier to exploit the deposits in today's Sonora, Durango, Chihuahua, etc., let alone in the unexplored territories in today's USA. Incidentally, the Mexican deposits were proved to be, and continue to be today, much, much richer and more prevalent than what was found in present USA. Why did the Mexicans pass up what was in their own back yard to travel into terra obscura?

3) Conceding to you the fact there were indeed a limited number of mining forays from Mexico into North America, why did the Mexicans go to the trouble of hiding their hard-earned spoils, concoct a complicated monumenting scheme in the wilderness to hopefully be able to relocate same, and then abandon the goods? Why not bring the gold back to Mexico after the mining was over? Oh, Indian trouble, you say? Well, the Indians are going to kill you whether you're carrying gold or not, aren't they? If I went to as much trouble as you imply, I'm sure as he[[ not going to be coming home empty handed.

4) Assuming the Mexicans-Spanish-Jesuit folks did cache some goods in North America - yes, I'll agree some of this may indeed have occurred. If so, why do you expect that the caches are still intact? Why weren't they retrieved? After all, if the code was known by the elite, what has prevented them or their descendants from reading the clues and recovering the loot any time in the past 300 or 400 years?

Do the math, Stack. The numbers don't add up. Neither does the logic of the many 'Spanish treasure' scenarios. Your assumptions and interpretations regarding the carvings, monuments, etc. that are being found are arbitrary, unsupported and unverified. They are 'theoretical possibilities', yes, I guess - but most of what you guys hang your hats on ('King's Code', Kenworthy, etc.) are not real except within a group of true believers who have essentially been misled.

Are you finding valid 'signs' in the hills? Yes, indeed, you most assuredly are. Are the signs man made for a purpose? Yes, they are. 99% of them were created by surveyors, prospectors, cowboys, homesteaders, explorers, pioneers, hunters, timber cruisers, trappers, soldiers, hikers, hippies, tree thinners, forest service people, pranksters, and on and on. They mark trails, control points, boundaries, claim corners, campsites and any number of other useful things. 1% may have something to do with hidden valuables.

The gazillion rock pictures that look like ducks, owls, poodles, Lady Gaga, etc. are simply that - rocks that look like something. Save your brain.

Bottom line: the 'Spanish miners' were not that active in North America. Those who found something took it home with them. Nearly all 'treasure signs' are something else. The 'genuine' treasure signs are meant to confuse and cannot be solved by an outsider. The trick is to put unproductive things behind you and focus on that 1%. Who, where, how, why?

And, EE, and Stack, too - I'm dead serious and not just trying to be a smart-a$$. 'Treasure hunting' is 100% about disinformation. I know you are very bright, motivated and have a lot invested in your work. Use your own brain - don't just swallow what's handed to you. It's tough to switch focus and even tougher to abandon what you've so carefully built. I was once like you, someday you may be like me.

 

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[EE THr]

Springfield---

I have no reason to disagree with anything you just said.

But, while I'm at it, I may as well ask you this: There are some really huge stone monuments which are way too obvious to be natural occurrences. And they are too big to have been erected by boy scouts, or those on your list of casual passerbys.

My question is threefold.

1. Who do you feel made all of these (and there are more than just a few)?
2. When do you think they were made?
3. Why did they put so much work into them?

 

[Old Dog]

Most of the signs I post are trail signs.
I follow the mule trails, some mule trains were up to 200 mules long.

These mules trains only went for about 6 or 7 miles per day.
Campsites were about 6 or 7 miles apart and all set up for the train to show up.
signs cache hole and all, ready to use. Hence every 6 or 7 miles there will be a short set of treasure signs.
The caches are usually empty but there is a few that aren't.
I expect to find these. (out of persistence, if nothing else)

I have packed hunters into places that took a couple days to get to using mules.
With 4 guys and 4 mules we could only make a comfortable 10 or 12 miles.
It is understandable to me reading about some of the early Texas outlaws like Jim Bowie getting short on cash and hijacking the last two mules from a train, knowing that by the time they were discovered missing, the train would be far enough down the trail that interest in looking for them would be rather low.

It would also make sense to study these trails and do the MD thing as time allows.
I have picked up many odd armor parts, horse tack pieces and the odd coin or two.
I have come to also understand that everything we read in books isn't true.
and that there were many ways of marking trails that the Spanish used in redundancy that are not documented but are Spanish markers none the less and can be used in the absence of other stone or carved markers.
There are places where a stone marker would be a premium thing and is a really rare find.

I have found enough and seen enough to laugh when people try to discourage me.
I agree that many of the signs you speak of may have been left by odd persons fearing getting lost or leaving a trace for a counter part to follow these are pretty much easily distinguished from the Spanish, and are not a concern.

 

[Springfield]

Springfield---

I have no reason to disagree with anything you just said.

But, while I'm at it, I may as well ask you this: There are some really huge stone monuments which are way too obvious to be natural occurrences. And they too big to have been erected by boy scouts, or those on your list of casual passerbys.

My question is threefold.

1. Who do you feel made all of these (and there are more than just a few)?
2. When do you think they were made?
3. Why did they put so much work into them?

Show me some.

 

[Springfield]

Most of the signs I post are trail signs.
I follow the mule trails, some mule trains were up to 200 mules long.

These mules trains only went for about 6 or 7 miles per day.
Campsites were about 6 or 7 miles apart and all set up for the train to show up.
signs cache hole and all, ready to use. Hence every 6 or 7 miles there will be a short set of treasure signs.
The caches are usually empty but there is a few that aren't.
I expect to find these. (out of persistence, if nothing else)

I have packed hunters into places that took a couple days to get to using mules.
With 4 guys and 4 mules we could only make a comfortable 10 or 12 miles.
It is understandable to me reading about some of the early Texas outlaws like Jim Bowie getting short on cash and hijacking the last two mules from a train, knowing that by the time they were discovered missing, the train would be far enough down the trail that interest in looking for them would be rather low.

It would also make sense to study these trails and do the MD thing as time allows.
I have picked up many odd armor parts, horse tack pieces and the odd coin or two.
I have come to also understand that everything we read in books isn't true.
and that there were many ways of marking trails that the Spanish used in redundancy that are not documented but are Spanish markers none the less and can be used in the absence of other stone or carved markers.
There are places where a stone marker would be a premium thing and is a really rare find.

I have found enough and seen enough to laugh when people try to discourage me.
I agree that many of the signs you speak of may have been left by odd persons fearing getting lost or leaving a trace for a counter part to follow these are pretty much easily distinguished from the Spanish, and are not a concern.

You've clearly located more man made field markers than most of us can even hope to wish for. I agree nearly all the markers we find are trail markers, and these are all interesting historical footnotes for a variety of reasons.

You've made an interesting point when you mentioned the armor pieces, horse tack, nails, trade beads, etc. you've recovered on the trails/campsites you've followed. Regarding 'Spanish treasure' exploration trails, don't you find it interesting that no one has identified any 'King's code' markers anywhere on the track that Coronado took 1540-1542 seeking the Cibola treasure legends? There have been plenty of artifacts such as you've mentioned left at nearly all of Coronado's well-documented campsites, but no carvings, cairns, poodle rocks, reverse-mirror images, dolmans, map rocks, etc. anywhere to be seen. This well-financed royal treasure expedition apparently didn't follow Kenworthy's rules, did they?

Another point concerning the 'empty caches' you've located. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that the empty holes may have been old cache sites - it was common practice to cache food, equipment and other usables, even beaver fur bales along the trail. They weren't well-hidden - no reason to make their recovery difficult. But gold? Why leave it on the trail? It was highly portable. Twenty pounds of gold 200 years ago was worth the same as twenty pounds of gold today - about a half million $US in today's Monopoly money. How often do you feel an individual, not to mention a larger party, would leave this on the trail? I'm admit some gold caches may have been made, but I would say the number was exceedingly small, and the folks who hid the stuff certainly wouldn't have left clues anyone else could figure out.

Can we learn anything from this? Yes we can: no matter how ardently we believe in something, the truth may well be entirely different. I'll repeat what I said earlier - it's my opinion that 99+% of the man made signs we find have nothing at all to do with 'treasure', other than historical treasures of course.

 

[EE THr]

Springfield---

So that's your answer to my three questions?

You're claiming that all the high tonnage, obviously man-made monuments, actually don't exist?

There have been many shown on this site already. Do you think they are all Photoshop creations?

Or do you really think they are all just random freaks of nature?

 

[HOOSIERau]

Treasure newbie I am.
People newbie I am not.

I know when I see people that are (purposefully or not) trying to throw wrenches in others gears.
In reading these threads over the past few months (which I still am... and will continue), I have seen several people that seem to not be able to "go with the flow" or "get with the program".

Its one thing to have a different opinion of a marker or sign ...
Its a whole different thing to discredit and challenge others for their beliefs

I don't think the purpose of this forum is to see who is the only one that is correct, is it ??

When Kenworthy died, he didn't leave any of you with the title of "King Treasure Hunter" did he ??

Till that happens, I will listen, learn, enjoy, dream, research, and be fascinated by those of you that have gone through a few pairs of boots & count the days till I can do the same !

Lets get on with "Treasure Signs and Symbols : 101" ....... not "Who's right and who's wrong"

ps. I will tell you all that I DO have certification proving that I am "King Snow Shoveler" after 20 more inches fell last night

 

[Springfield]

Springfield---

So that's your answer to my three questions?

You're claiming that all the high tonnage, obviously man-made monuments, actually don't exist?

There have been many shown on this site already. Do you think they are all Photoshop creations?

Or do you really think they are all just random freaks of nature?

Please direct me to some. I can't comment on a generalization. My answers may surprise you, but let's get specific first.

 

[desertmoons]

Very interesting discussion. For sure there was a lot of marking going on besides Spanish.

Springfield, I know this seem like a dumb question..but would not a first official (rather than unofficial) exploration by Coronado..perhaps have another important goal too? Looking for that passage to the Pacific?

As Coronado said he found nothing much in ways of mines (to best of my recollection)..there would not be much reason to mark extensively...just perhaps trail signs here and there. Well..have not studied his exploration for quite a while.


Tiguex

 

[Springfield]

Treasure newbie I am.
People newbie I am not.

I know when I see people that are (purposefully or not) trying to throw wrenches in others gears.
In reading these threads over the past few months (which I still am... and will continue), I have seen several people that seem to not be able to "go with the flow" or "get with the program".

Its one thing to have a different opinion of a marker or sign ...
Its a whole different thing to discredit and challenge others for their beliefs

I don't think the purpose of this forum is to see who is the only one that is correct, is it ??

When Kenworthy died, he didn't leave any of you with the title of "King Treasure Hunter" did he ??

Till that happens, I will listen, learn, enjoy, dream, research, and be fascinated by those of you that have gone through a few pairs of boots & count the days till I can do the same !

Lets get on with "Treasure Signs and Symbols : 101" ....... not "Who's right and who's wrong"

ps. I will tell you all that I DO have certification proving that I am "King Snow Shoveler" after 20 more inches fell last night

You may have a future in this realm, Indy. You are exactly on course so far - you are faced with the decision to 'go with the flow' and 'get with the program', or to head the direction a few others have chosen - 'find the truth'. Your choice. Religion, politics, education, treasure hunting - all the same game under the hood.

When Kenworthy died, he left a series of books. Some people believe everything in them, others wonder if they are full of disinformation, intentional or unintentional. Most of the 'experts' on this forum use his books as their bedrock. What if he's wrong? Nobody has demonstrated that he's right. Lots of blustering from his self-styled protoges, yes - nothing but unverified claims.

I guess you're accusing me of 'throwing wrenches in others' gears'. If you read my posts calmly and carefully (all of them if you care enough), you'll note that I have consistently encouraged people to use their own brains to evaluate the claims made on this and other forums. I am by no means an expert in solving the 'treasure signs' posted here, and, guess what - I've never claimed to be.

I do get trashed on this forum from two sets of people in general - one is from the intentionally misleading experts who I challenge to prove their claims. These guys are out for recognition and want to protect their standing. The second is from true believers who cannot deal with the possibility that their beliefs are false. This is threatening because it implies you've been on the wrong path and wasted time. That of course is not the case - we learn best from our mistakes.

 

[Springfield]

Very interesting discussion. For sure there was a lot of marking going on besides Spanish.

Springfield, I know this seem like a dumb question..but would not a first official (rather than unofficial) exploration by Coronado..perhaps have another important goal too? Looking for that passage to the Pacific?

As Coronado said he found nothing much in ways of mines (to best of my recollection)..there would not be much reason to mark extensively...just perhaps trail signs here and there. Well..have not studied his exploration for quite a while.

Tiguex

Remember, the expedition was organized and funded for the sole purpose of exploiting the report from Marcos de Niza, a previous eye-witness to 'Cibola', to the Viceroy concerning the vast riches to be found beyond the northern frontier. Yes, during the three years there was exploration further west, but these guys were primarily gold-crazy from Day One. I won't go into my personal theories about the de Niza/Coronado association here, but the point is, why wasn't the expedition's trail (anticipating the 'riches of the world') monumented? It simply raises an eyebrow - maybe the 'King's Code' allegations are not factual.

 

[Shortstack]

Springfield:
May I point out that if Coronado or any other "spearhead" Spanish explorer had found Cibola or any other gold / silver deposit; they would have THEN constructed those trail markers and monuments, on their way OUT of the areas.
In addition, there is proof that the Spanish actually followed the trails of the Ancients who found most of the large mining sites and valuable deposits. The Ancients didn't try to hide their operations so finding the mining sites weren't that hard for the Spanish.

 

[Saturna]

I do get trashed on this forum from two sets of people in general - one is from the intentionally misleading experts who I challenge to prove their claims. These guys are out for recognition and want to protect their standing. The second is from true believers who cannot deal with the possibility that their beliefs are false.

Wow, when you're right - you're right.

 

[desertmoons]

Thanks Steve.

One day I was out looking around and had an epiphany. The landscape resolved into about 5-7 layers of markings and endeavors as I gazed near and afar. It did not last long enough, that clear sight that came upon me. But while it lasted it was..mind blowing.

Some very large scale things going on I think and not Spanish. How old is the question.
Thanks again.

 

[Springfield]

Springfield:
May I point out that if Coronado or any other "spearhead" Spanish explorer had found Cibola or any other gold / silver deposit; they would have THEN constructed those trail markers and monuments, on their way OUT of the areas.
In addition, there is proof that the Spanish actually followed the trails of the Ancients who found most of the large mining sites and valuable deposits. The Ancients didn't try to hide their operations so finding the mining sites weren't that hard for the Spanish.

Point well taken, Stack - but remember, de Niza was returning to Cibola (leading Coronado), which he claimed he was first led to in 1539 by Estavanico. Coronado was instructed to take possession in the name of the Crown. Seems like since it was already a done deal, he would have marked the route in on the way. The only 'map' was the descriptions written by his chroniclers.

I'm very interested in the ancients. What's your opinion as to who these ancients were? You mentioned proof the Spanish followed their trails. I'd like to know more about where I can find info about this.

 

[Springfield]

... Some very large scale things going on I think and not Spanish. How old is the question.....

This is where things do get very interesting. Lots of speculation here, but no unified theory yet.

 

[EE THr]

Springfield---

Your original comment was itself a generalization.

I was merely asking for a clarification of your opinion.

I'm not trying to prove anything, so I'm not going to jump through hoops for you, and I don't appreciate your asking me to, just to get three simple answers about your opinion.

You seem to have very strong opinions, and you also seem determined to post those opinions, so why not just answer my simple questions, and get your opinion out there, instead of continuing with the cryptic/games nonsense? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Springfield]

Springfield---

Your original comment was itself a generalization.

I was merely asking for a clarification of your opinion.

I'm not trying to prove anything, so I'm not going to jump through hoops for you, and I don't appreciate your asking me to, just to get three simple answers about your opinion.

You seem to have very strong opinions, and you also seem determined to post those opinions, so why not just answer my simple questions, and get your opinion out there, instead of continuing with the cryptic/games nonsense? That doesn't make any sense.

You asked about the 'really huge stone monuments which are way too obvious to be natural occurrences'. I asked, 'Which ones are those?'. Show me one - we'll talk. Ball's in your court, Double E.

 

[Shortstack]

Springfield wrote:
Point well taken, Stack - but remember, de Niza was returning to Cibola (leading Coronado), which he claimed he was first led to in 1539 by Estavanico. Coronado was instructed to take possession in the name of the Crown. Seems like since it was already a done deal, he would have marked the route in on the way. The only 'map' was the descriptions written by his chroniclers.

This shows that the first person who supposedly saw the city of gold wrote a verbal map and didn't have the man power or time to construct trail monuments.
The stories of the city of gold that I'd heard concerned how the Aztecs told that story of the cities to the Spanish after they realize that would be a way to get them to leave their area. Every village would say, "yes we know of the seven cities of gold. They are further north." The Spanish were scammed by the natives to get them the hell out of their areas. And the Spanish fell for the story because of their deep seated greed.
There are finds in the Phoenix Valley of Arizona that indicate there were seven great cities with large canal systems for irrigation located there. They are referred to as the Seven Cities of Cibola, but are not being heralded as "made of gold".
One of our forum members has proven that not ALL stories of rich mines are fake.

 

[Springfield]

quote author=Shortstack
.... This shows that the first person who supposedly saw the city of gold wrote a verbal map and didn't have the man power or time to construct trail monuments. That would have been Estevanico who then led Marcos to the spot. Marcos was a supreme wild card in 16th century history, but we won't go into that here.

The stories of the city of gold that I'd heard concerned how the Aztecs told that story of the cities to the Spanish after they realize that would be a way to get them to leave their area. No. The legends, or some forms of them, according to some, were centuries old by the 16th century. The Conquistadors were interested in the natives' legends, but went crazy with Marcos' report.

Every village would say, "yes we know of the seven cities of gold. They are further north." The Spanish were scammed by the natives to get them the hell out of their areas. And the Spanish fell for the story because of their deep seated greed. Correct, after Zuni. Zuni was where de Niza, the eye-witness, led Coronado. After Zuni, it was all a goat rope.

There are finds in the Phoenix Valley of Arizona that indicate there were seven great cities with large canal systems for irrigation located there. They are referred to as the Seven Cities of Cibola, but are not being heralded as "made of gold". That's a new one.

One of our forum members has proven that not ALL stories of rich mines are fake. Who proved this? Whoever he is, he's about 90% correct, IMO.