Treasure Mountain, CO - Lost Frenchmens Gold

[mdog]

This has some interesting stories about early mining in Colorado. Chapter 9 page 193.

https://books.google.com/books?id=a...QAhUDLyYKHX6yBd8Q6AEINTAJ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

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[mdog]

This is a real interesting link that shows the extent of Spanish trade on the Great Plains.

http://www.nebraskahistory.org/publish/publicat/history/full-text/NH1993Spain.pdf

 

[sdcfia]

This has some interesting stories about early mining in Colorado. Chapter 9 page 193.

https://books.google.com/books?id=a...QAhUDLyYKHX6yBd8Q6AEINTAJ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Great link, dog. The first part of Chapter IX provides a lot of backup for the topic we're discussing - French gold mining in Colorado during the early 1700s. There's even a reference to the gold mine/(cache?) on the Arkansas River, near the border of today's KS/OK line. The 1913 book has a good index, but too bad there's not a bibliography.

 

[mdog]

Great link, dog. The first part of Chapter IX provides a lot of backup for the topic we're discussing - French gold mining in Colorado during the early 1700s. There's even a reference to the gold mine/(cache?) on the Arkansas River, near the border of today's KS/OK line. The 1913 book has a good index, but too bad there's not a bibliography.

Yes, a bibliography would have been great.

There is a story on page 16 that reminded me of something Johnathan Carver wrote about.

Before 1715, the Kaskaskia tribe of Illinois Indians had come into possession of Spanish horses, which had been passed to them from Indians of the great prairies in the West; and soon afterward a report was brought to the French settlement of Kaskaskia by French explorers of the Missouri River that a tribe living “500 leagues” up that stream lately had been fighting a band of Spanish adventurers. About that time, some silver-bearing ore, which was understood to have been carried into the neighborhood of the Missouri River by Spanish traders was used by French sharpers to “salt” an alleged mine of that metal in Illinois

Here's Carver's story.

[FONT=&quot](31) My reaſons for adopting this ſuppoſition are ... thirdly from their inveterate hatred to the Spaniards. Some of them informed me that they had made many excurſions to the ſouth-weſt, which took up ſeveral moons. An elderly chief more particularly acquainted me, that about forty-ſix winters ago [1720], he marched, at the head of fifty warriors, towards the ſouth-weſt, for three moons. That during this expedition, whilſt they were croſſing a plain, (32) they diſcovered a body of men on horſeback, who belonged to the Black People; for ſo they call the Spaniards. As ſoon as they perceived them, they proceeded with caution, and concealed themſelves till night came on; when they drew ſo near as to be able to diſcern the number and ſituation of their enemies. Finding they were not able to cope with ſo great a ſuperiority by daylight they waited till they had retired to reſt; when they ruſhed upon them, and after having killed the greateſt part of the men, took eighty horſes loaded with what they termed white ſtone. This I ſuppoſe to have been ſilver, as he told me the horſes were ſhod with it, and that their bridles were ornamented with the ſame. When they had ſatiated their revenge, they carried off their ſpoil, and being got ſo far as to be out of the reach of the Spaniards that had eſcaped their fury, they left the uſeleſs and ponderous burthen, with which the horſes were loaded, in the woods, and mounting themſelves, in this manner returned to their friends. The party they had thus defeated, I conclude to be the caravan that annually conveys to Mexico, the ſilver which the Spaniards find in great quantities (33) on the mountains lying near the heads of the Coloredo River: and the plains where the attack was made, probably, ſome they were obliged to paſs over in their way to the heads of the River St. Fee, or Rio del Nord, which falls into the gulph of Mexico to the weſt of the Miſſiſſippi."[SUP]1[/SUP][/FONT][SUP]
I would also like to see where he got the story about the Frenchmen leaving Mobile and going up the Arkansas River.

I was also happy with the link about the Spanish on the plains. I learned a lot about the Spanish trails going to the north from Santa Fe.[/SUP]

 

[mdog]

I've posted a couple links, in the past about Father Aulneau and Johnathan Carver. Here's an excerpt from Father Aulneau where he describes a journey from Lake of the Woods to a destination 300-400 miles to the southwest. That distance and direction would have put him in Colorado.

I shall leave that post only in the spring, to journey on three or four hundred leagues beyond, in quest of the Ouant Chipouanes, so that my course then will be southwest.
Such, Reverend Father, is the route I shall follow towards an objective point which you see is very indefinite and uncertain, since all we know about it is founded on the reports of other Indians, who, for the most part, have little scruple in speaking differently from what they think.
If what they add concerning the place where the Ouant Chipouanes dwell be true, I should say that these cannot be very far from California, for, if we are to believe their reports, the Ouant Chipouanes dwell on the shores of a great river where there is an ebb and flow in the stream, which would go to show that the sea cannot be very far off. It is not easy to determine what river this is. I am led to surmise, however, that it is no other than the great river which Father King, a German Jesuit, mentions in the map which he traced of the regions lying to the north of California, and which he calls the Rio Colorado de Norte. Seethe fifth collection of the Lettres Edifiantes*

Here's the excerpt from Carver's journal.


[FONT=&quot](31) My reaſons for adopting this ſuppoſition are ... thirdly from their inveterate hatred to the Spaniards. Some of them informed me that they had made many excurſions to the ſouth-weſt, which took up ſeveral moons. An elderly chief more particularly acquainted me, that about forty-ſix winters ago [1720], he marched, at the head of fifty warriors, towards the ſouth-weſt, for three moons. That during this expedition, whilſt they were croſſing a plain, (32) they diſcovered a body of men on horſeback, who belonged to the Black People; for ſo they call the Spaniards. As ſoon as they perceived them, they proceeded with caution, and concealed themſelves till night came on; when they drew ſo near as to be able to diſcern the number and ſituation of their enemies. Finding they were not able to cope with ſo great a ſuperiority by daylight they waited till they had retired to reſt; when they ruſhed upon them, and after having killed the greateſt part of the men, took eighty horſes loaded with what they termed white ſtone. This I ſuppoſe to have been ſilver, as he told me the horſes were ſhod with it, and that their bridles were ornamented with the ſame. When they had ſatiated their revenge, they carried off their ſpoil, and being got ſo far as to be out of the reach of the Spaniards that had eſcaped their fury, they left the uſeleſs and ponderous burthen, with which the horſes were loaded, in the woods, and mounting themſelves, in this manner returned to their friends. The party they had thus defeated, I conclude to be the caravan that annually conveys to Mexico, the ſilver which the Spaniards find in great quantities (33) on the mountains lying near the heads of the Coloredo River: and the plains where the attack was made, probably, ſome they were obliged to paſs over in their way to the heads of the River St. Fee, or Rio del Nord, which falls into the gulph of Mexico to the weſt of the Miſſiſſippi."[SUP]1[/SUP][/FONT][SUP]
Aulneau and Carver both mention the Colorado River. 300 leagues, at 2.75 miles per league, would have put Aulneau close to the head of the Colorado River. But Carver's story is kind of surprising because he mentions Spanish silver mines being close to the headwaters of the Colorado. Eagle River, a tributary of the Colorado, has its source in a silver producing area of Colorado. He also mentioned that the mule train was probably going toward the headwaters of the Rio Grande and the Santa Fe River, which meant that Carver had a good knowledge of New Mexico even though he had never been there. Also, his comment about the men of the mule train belonging to the Black People was interesting. Aulneau was a Black Robe. Could there have been a Jesuit presence in the silver producing area close to the head of the Colorado River. [/SUP]

 

[sdcfia]

[SUP]
Aulneau and Carver both mention the Colorado River. 300 leagues, at 2.75 miles per league, would have put Aulneau close to the head of the Colorado River. But Carver's story is kind of surprising because he mentions Spanish silver mines being close to the headwaters of the Colorado. Eagle River, a tributary of the Colorado, has its source in a silver producing area of Colorado. He also mentioned that the mule train was probably going toward the headwaters of the Rio Grande and the Santa Fe River, which meant that Carver had a good knowledge of New Mexico even though he had never been there. Also, his comment about the men of the mule train belonging to the Black People was interesting. Aulneau was a Black Robe. Could there have been a Jesuit presence in the silver producing area close to the head of the Colorado River. [/SUP]

It's questionable where they believed the source of the Colorado River to be at that time. If they were actually referring to the head of today's San Juan River, a major tributary joining the Colorado north of Page AZ, the mining area may have been somewhere in the San Juan Mountains region, a prolific silver source.

 

[UncleMatt]

excellent observation.

 

[mdog]

It's questionable where they believed the source of the Colorado River to be at that time. If they were actually referring to the head of today's San Juan River, a major tributary joining the Colorado north of Page AZ, the mining area may have been somewhere in the San Juan Mountains region, a prolific silver source.

This is a good point.

What is interesting to me is, why are the Jesuits sending a priest from Lake of the Woods to some point in Spanish territory when they have priests in Mexico. I can only guess that when the priests entered Mexico, the Spanish authorities would know how many there were and who they were. It seems that if the Jesuits sent a priest in from far to the northeast, it's because they didn't want the Spanish authorities to know that he was in their territory. Why didn't the Jesuits send their priest in from the east or the southeast? During the 1730's the Sauk and Fox tribes were still fighting the French and their allies so this would have made a western approach from Detroit, too dangerous. If the Jesuits had approached Spanish territory from the southeast, the chances are good that they might have encountered Spanish troops or settlers or their Indian allies. So, if the Jesuits were interested in an unobserved incursion, coming in from far to the northeast would make sense.

Now, did the Jesuits have a specific destination or was Aulneau part of an expedition of exploration. I believe that they knew exactly where they were going. Aulneau wrote that he was going 300-400 leagues to the southwest from Lake of the Woods. Here's a link of the Aulneau papers.

https://archive.org/stream/rareaulneaucollect00aulnuoft/rareaulneaucollect00aulnuoft_djvu.txt

On page 67, Father Nau writes to Father Bonin that Aulneau will be 400 leagues from Father Guignas mission which was at Lake Pepin on the Mississippi River. Both of these comments suggest to me that there was a specific destination. Another question would be, did the Jesuits know how close to Mexico 400 leagues to the southwest would be? I believe they did. On pages 57, 66 and 74, the latitudes of three different places in Canada are given and two of them were pretty much right on. The third one, Fort St. Charles was off by a degree and a half to the south. So they knew latitude and they probably knew the latitudes of their missions in the southwest and Mexico, so they would know that it would be much closer to send a priest from Mexico to wherever it was they were going.

So, what was going on? Was there a Vatican inspired expedition, not sanctioned by the French or Spanish government, carried out by the Jesuits? Or could it have been strictly a Jesuit operation?

 

[sdcfia]

This is a good point.

What is interesting to me is, why are the Jesuits sending a priest from Lake of the Woods to some point in Spanish territory when they have priests in Mexico. I can only guess that when the priests entered Mexico, the Spanish authorities would know how many there were and who they were. It seems that if the Jesuits sent a priest in from far to the northeast, it's because they didn't want the Spanish authorities to know that he was in their territory. Why didn't the Jesuits send their priest in from the east or the southeast? During the 1730's the Sauk and Fox tribes were still fighting the French and their allies so this would have made a western approach from Detroit, too dangerous. If the Jesuits had approached Spanish territory from the southeast, the chances are good that they might have encountered Spanish troops or settlers or their Indian allies. So, if the Jesuits were interested in an unobserved incursion, coming in from far to the northeast would make sense.

Now, did the Jesuits have a specific destination or was Aulneau part of an expedition of exploration. I believe that they knew exactly where they were going. Aulneau wrote that he was going 300-400 leagues to the southwest from Lake of the Woods. Here's a link of the Aulneau papers.

https://archive.org/stream/rareaulneaucollect00aulnuoft/rareaulneaucollect00aulnuoft_djvu.txt

On page 67, Father Nau writes to Father Bonin that Aulneau will be 400 leagues from Father Guignas mission which was at Lake Pepin on the Mississippi River. Both of these comments suggest to me that there was a specific destination. Another question would be, did the Jesuits know how close to Mexico 400 leagues to the southwest would be? I believe they did. On pages 57, 66 and 74, the latitudes of three different places in Canada are given and two of them were pretty much right on. The third one, Fort St. Charles was off by a degree and a half to the south. So they knew latitude and they probably knew the latitudes of their missions in the southwest and Mexico, so they would know that it would be much closer to send a priest from Mexico to wherever it was they were going.

So, what was going on? Was there a Vatican inspired expedition, not sanctioned by the French or Spanish government, carried out by the Jesuits? Or could it have been strictly a Jesuit operation?

We know that Spain outlawed mining for the Jesuits in their corner of the New World. How well that rule was obeyed is a matter of debate and the source of plenty of "lost Jesuit mines" legends, etc. in northern Mexico and Arizona. Perhaps the French Jesuits plan was simply to sneak into the mineralized zone from the back door, so to speak, and operate beyond the northern extent of Spanish political control and Franciscan religious zones. Of course, they were also very interested in the fur harvest in the Rocky Mountains, as also hinted at on page 67. Saving souls aside - their cover story - these church boys were all heavily into the money game.

 

[mdog]

I'll keep adding information to Randy's thread with the hope that some other researchers might see something that will help explain the Treasure Mountain legend.

I've been looking for some evidence that might show some cooperation between the Spanish miners of New Spain and the French of Canada and Louisiana. I found this link about silver smugglers in Cadiz, Spain.

http://economics.yale.edu/sites/def...nars/Economic-History/nogues-marco-110321.pdf

It seems this link shows cooperation between the Spanish merchants, who were importing precious metals from the Americas, and French merchant silver smugglers in Cadiz. It's also interesting that the French had the most smugglers and that they had international networks that they could use to dispose of the silver.

I believe it is possible that there might have been a conspiracy, between Spanish and French merchants, to mine precious metals in territories claimed by Spain, and then transport them to Canada for international distribution by the French smugglers.

It could also be one of the reasons that France made sure that the Spanish controlled Louisiana after their war with Britain. The French lost Canada but with the Spanish controlling the Mississippi River, any smuggling operation could still make it down to the Gulf of Mexico.

 

[mdog]

Here is a translation of a letter from Perez to Miro dated Dec. 1, 1788.


Perez shows a concern that an expedition from either British Canada or the United States could cross the Missouri River and loot Spanish mines. The translation doesn't seem too clear about the location of these mines but it seems that they are close enough to the Missouri River to be considered a frontier of that river.

 

[mdog]

Early in this thread, the French explorer Louis de Villemont was mentioned. The author, Maynard Adams, introduced Villemont into the Treasure Mountain legend through his Citadel Mountain books. By his own account, Villemont mentioned that gold had been found in the Arkansas River. According to a report of his explorations, he found something else important to the recovery of gold and silver from ore.

"Decidedly, one should pay special attention to the content of the attached copy that he gaveby our request, on one point of his Diary of his voyages. It is the discovery of a quicksilver mine. Your worship will understand how important it willbe for us to profit from that mine, and what a service Vilemont had provided to the Nationthrough access to the use of that mineral. This would be enough to recommend him on top ofall of the news and ideas that he has provided."

I don't know where the mine was located. Here's a question for those who know about mining. Can quicksilver be processed in the field and then used to recover gold or silver or is there some reason that the quicksilver would have to be processed away from its point of discovery?

 

[sdcfia]

Early in this thread, the French explorer Louis de Villemont was mentioned. The author, Maynard Adams, introduced Villemont into the Treasure Mountain legend through his Citadel Mountain books. By his own account, Villemont mentioned that gold had been found in the Arkansas River. According to a report of his explorations, he found something else important to the recovery of gold and silver from ore.

"Decidedly, one should pay special attention to the content of the attached copy that he gaveby our request, on one point of his Diary of his voyages. It is the discovery of a quicksilver mine. Your worship will understand how important it willbe for us to profit from that mine, and what a service Vilemont had provided to the Nationthrough access to the use of that mineral. This would be enough to recommend him on top ofall of the news and ideas that he has provided."

I don't know where the mine was located. Here's a question for those who know about mining. Can quicksilver be processed in the field and then used to recover gold or silver or is there some reason that the quicksilver would have to be processed away from its point of discovery?

Most mercury comes from roasting the mineral cinnabar and condensing the vapors. Cinnabar is rare, but there were a few small mines in Saguache County in Colorado. That seems to fit.

 

[audigger53]

Most mercury comes from roasting the mineral cinnabar and condensing the vapors. Cinnabar is rare, but there were a few small mines in Saguache County in Colorado. That seems to fit.

Didn't realize it was rare. Found an old shaft north of Douglas, AZ. Went to the face of the shaft and knocked off some to see what they would drive a shaft 30 feet for. It was cinnabar.

 

[Honest Samuel]

Best of luck to those who are seeking this treasure.

 

[mdog]

Most mercury comes from roasting the mineral cinnabar and condensing the vapors. Cinnabar is rare, but there were a few small mines in Saguache County in Colorado. That seems to fit.

Is cinnabar something you can easily spot on the surface of the ground or is it a mineral you find when you're mining for something else?

The reason I ask is, would it be something Villemont could easily spot or would some miner have to tell him about it?

 

[audigger53]

The ore I found was reddish in color, when heated it would flake off and had blue and yellow flames from a butane torch. I made sure I was up wind with a good breeze when I used the torch. I took it to the university of Texas at San Antonio first and asked the Geology Prof. what it was and he had no idea. Guess he didn't know about mining.

 

[sdcfia]

Is cinnabar something you can easily spot on the surface of the ground or is it a mineral you find when you're mining for something else?

The reason I ask is, would it be something Villemont could easily spot or would some miner have to tell him about it?

Most of the early prospectors found deposits that were visible from the surface. They were always looking for anomalies in the exposed rock - exposed veins, stains, etc. Cinnabar is a reddish mineral, as I recall, and may have been just a lucky discovery for the Villemont bunch. Hard to say. My guess is that they were placer miners primarily who were also on the lookout for lode deposits, and stumbled onto the cinnabar. It's possible they could have found gold ore too, for that matter.

 

[audigger53]

To keep from loosing gold dust, prospectors would take a potato, cut it in half, scoop out the center leaving a 1/4 rim. Mix the gold dust with mercury and then put it in the bottom of the potato and screw the top half onto the bottom and put it in the fire. They would then take the top off and dunk it in water to recover some of the mercury and the bottom would have a solid lump. Harder to loose the lump. Now days refineries will not take amalgam. Mercury was also rubbed into the bottom of panning pans to grab the fine gold when panning so it didn't "wash out of the pan".

 

[mdog]

Thanks for the information, sdcfia and audigger53.