The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[Randawg72]

Bocaj (Jacob?),
The Quedagh Merchant was a 400 ton ship full of valuable cargo. (Ref: Zacks' The Pirate Hunter, pg 155. Paraphrased).
"The bales of silk, muslin, calico, opium set the ships value at 400,000 rupees or £50,000.
In the Captain's cabin, Kidd found a locked chest containing rubies, emeralds, diamonds, and gold nuggets. Inside a silver jewel box were four diamonds set in gold lockets, and one very large diamond set in a gold ring. He also found a bag of silver rings, and precious stones, a bag of unpolished gems, pieces of crystal, carnelian rings, a bezoar stone, agates, amethysts, a bag of silver buttons, and a silver lamp weighing two pounds."

Remember that Kidd also captured The Rouparelle. The combined worth of Kidd's treasure (including the Gardiner's stash) would have been at least £110,000 to £120,000 pounds.

I'm sorry, but I just don't feel the Avery connection is feasible. As you said, it's all speculation, and no one can say with any certainty who's correct. There are many out there who think we're both wrong. And that's OK with me.

"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." –Mr. Spock

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

DR.ÖTEK Metal Detector, Waterproof Gold Detector, Pinpoint & Terrain Modes, Professional Metal Detector - Grab it through Amazon!

[Bocaj]

Bocaj (Jacob?),
The Quedagh Merchant was a 400 ton ship full of valuable cargo. (Ref: Zacks' The Pirate Hunter, pg 155. Paraphrased).
"The bales of silk, muslin, calico, opium set the ships value at 400,000 rupees or £50,000.
In the Captain's cabin, Kidd found a locked chest containing rubies, emeralds, diamonds, and gold nuggets. Inside a silver jewel box were four diamonds set in gold lockets, and one very large diamond set in a gold ring. He also found a bag of silver rings, and precious stones, a bag of unpolished gems, pieces of crystal, carnelian rings, a bezoar stone, agates, amethysts, a bag of silver buttons, and a silver lamp weighing two pounds."

Remember that Kidd also captured The Rouparelle. The combined worth of Kidd's treasure (including the Gardiner's stash) would have been at least £110,000 to £120,000 pounds.

I'm sorry, but I just don't feel the Avery connection is feasible. As you said, it's all speculation, and no one can say with any certainty who's correct. There are many out there who think we're both wrong. And that's OK with me.

"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." –Mr. Spock

As I said I just assume that fact from both "Avery the Pirate" letters and also from comparing the included details with what is in the maps and Kidd's correspondence.
Also you above can't really account for 100k in gold (not goods) and precious stones neither. Apart from that the crew wouldn't let him hide the whole lot but his personally part only if at all! He did bury quite a bit already in Gardners island which was recovered before he came up with that 100k story, which clearly points to something else.
If you combine everything that is in the letters and maps it makes sense and also some details repeat - like those three stones. Too much of a coincidence from where I stand.
There is a lot of talk here about the Palmer maps being a hoax. I still fail to see any prove for either for or against it. Yes I have seen the photo with the map but what does that prove exactly? Also the the card where he tries to reconstruct the map with the help of that or other photos and whatever other info he got. The handwriting is clearly not the same from the maps (best compare the "L" letter). As for now I can't see any prove that they are not genuine. The only thing I can see is many have tried to identify that island and have failed and come to the conclusion because they didn't find it it doesn't exist.
Avery's and Kidd's treasure being the same is just a new thought and it takes a while for people to adjust their brains to accept at least the possibility and then maybe some progress in that matter will be made.

 

[ISmellGold]

Interesting British Pathé newsreel video of Elizabeth Dick showing off some of the pirate relics that she inherited after Hubert Palmer's passing in 1949.

Link:

🤣
Obviously a lot of that stuff is not authentic. Pretty funny

 

[Randawg72]

As I said I just assume that fact from both "Avery the Pirate" letters and also from comparing the included details with what is in the maps and Kidd's correspondence.
Also you above can't really account for 100k in gold (not goods) and precious stones neither. Apart from that the crew wouldn't let him hide the whole lot but his personally part only if at all! He did bury quite a bit already in Gardners island which was recovered before he came up with that 100k story, which clearly points to something else.

It sounds like we agree more on this topic than we don't. I'm obviously not as versed on Avery's history as I am Kidd's. FYI, much of the QM's goods were sold for bar gold and nuggets before Kidd returned home. An interesting note is that Zacks' book also said that Captain Kidd inspected the "Quedagh" Captain's chest alone, and that Kidd "Likely showed the jewels to no one".
You are correct that nobody has presented any reasonable argument that the Kidd/Palmer charts are not authentic. There's a clear difference with the ones drawn by Wilkins. While I can't wrap my head around an Avery and Kidd collaboration, it really doesn't change my narrative much on Kidd's treasure.

 

[Randawg72]

🤣
Obviously a lot of that stuff is not authentic. Pretty funny

So that's your only takeaway from that video? The shots of Kidd's famous "William and Sarah Kidd" work-box owned by Vice-Admiral Hardy, and the "Sir Henry Morgan" owned Skull chest are both magical to me. And the grainy glimpse of Kidd's actual "Skeleton" (or key) chart gives me goosebumps.

 

[ISmellGold]

So that's your only takeaway from that video? The shots of Kidd's famous "William and Sarah Kidd" work-box owned by Vice-Admiral Hardy, and the "Sir Henry Morgan" owned Skull chest are both magical to me. And the grainy glimpse of Kidd's actual "Skeleton" (or key) chart gives me goosebumps.

yep
🤣

 

[Bocaj]

FYI, much of the QM's goods were sold for bar gold and nuggets before Kidd returned home. An interesting note is that Zacks' book also said that Captain Kidd inspected the "Quedagh" Captain's chest alone, and that Kidd "Likely showed the jewels to no one".

Sure the goods were sold but if I remember right after Kidd left with a sloop he acquired and left for New England. He then tried to bargain with the proceedings of the sale of those goods but unknown to him his crew not only sold the goods but burned the ship and went AWOL. I guess neither he nor his backers saw any it again. Also they sold it fast and I guess sold it for much below its value. But even in the best case that he sold the goods for almost it value he would have needed to bury it all in one place minus the money he needed to buy that sloop and the treasure he buried at Gardners island. I doubt that this could add to 100k. I also doubt that his crew would have let him bury it without the knowledge of the whereabouts!

I seriously only see two possibilities: he took Avery's treasure and re-buried it or he had some other treasure hidden from some other voyage or voyages long time ago (1669? this date pops up here and there!)...

While I can't wrap my head around an Avery and Kidd collaboration, it really doesn't change my narrative much on Kidd's treasure.

No it doesn't change anything really but it would add some very useful ideas I think. Obviously you can try your luck like many before with the Palmer maps alone but without looking at the historical context (and the first Pirate Round is the place to start really) you won't make it very far.

We need to live and to think like them! Time travel in our minds 300 years back and only then those things we read now will make truly sense. Looking at all the data we have with our modern technological mind-set will further lead people to waste time and money on this hunt without any more results than those that already did it before.

 

[Randawg72]

I seriously only see two possibilities: he took Avery's treasure and re-buried it or he had some other treasure hidden from some other voyage or voyages long time ago (1669? this date pops up here and there!)...

Kidd could possibly have had some prior treasure stashed. Or the "side" loot from the Captains and wealthy passengers was worth more than he let on. I don't think the £120,000 estimate for the QM's cargo is out of line.

No it doesn't change anything really but it would add some very useful ideas I think. Obviously you can try your luck like many before with the Palmer maps alone but without looking at the historical context (and the first Pirate Round is the place to start really) you won't make it very far.

We need to live and to think like them! Time travel in our minds 300 years back and only then those things we read now will make truly sense. Looking at all the data we have with our modern technological mind-set will further lead people to waste time and money on this hunt without any more results than those that already did it before.

I've considered every angle of context that I can think of. Today's technology was only a dream for treasure hunters like Richard Knight. To most people "Kidd's treasure" is just as a myth until someone proves otherwise. I firmly believe that he who locates Kidd's secret island will find the treasure.

 

[Bocaj]

Kidd could possibly have had some prior treasure stashed. Or the "side" loot from the Captains and wealthy passengers was worth more than he let on. I don't think the £120,000 estimate for the QM's cargo is out of line.


I've considered every angle of context that I can think of. Today's technology was only a dream for treasure hunters like Richard Knight. To most people "Kidd's treasure" is just as a myth until someone proves otherwise.

I would not overestimate the advantages of technology. A common fault in people these days.

I firmly believe that he who locates Kidd's secret island will find the treasure.

I also believe that the island is real but I have my doubt about any treasure there. There are a lot of possibilities:
- someone else could already taken it out without leaving any trace
- Kidd did invent that treasure as a desperate way to save his neck
- 300 years is a lot of time, tectonic activity can change the shape of that island including sink it into the sea
- climate change can convert the whole place into a desert and strip the bit of vegetation than the maps mention and also change beaches etc.
- Palmer was sold some copies of a real island that was used by smugglers and pirates but had nothing to do with Kidd (a very real possibility and I really like to exclude that first)

Actually sailing the places Tew, Avery and Kidd did and we get an idea where it could be otherwise it seems hopeless from where I stand. Pirate round anyone?

 

[Randawg72]

Bocaj,
- I would not overestimate the advantages of technology. A common fault in people these days. I use tech whenever it's helpful, and take whatever advantages I can get.
- someone else could already taken it out without leaving any trace Very true.
- Kidd did invent that treasure as a desperate way to save his neck People don't draw maps to a 'made up' treasure.
- 300 years is a lot of time, tectonic activity can change the shape of that island including sink it into the sea (327 years) Tectonic activity has not adversely affected my island.
- climate change can convert the whole place into a desert and strip the bit of vegetation than the maps mention and also change beaches etc. Neither has Climate change.
- Palmer was sold some copies of a real island that was used by smugglers and pirates but had nothing to do with Kidd (a very real possibility and I really like to exclude that first)
Do you have any details of this island or these 'copies'?

Actually sailing the places Tew, Avery and Kidd did and we get an idea where it could be otherwise it seems hopeless from where I stand. Pirate round anyone?
I already found what I believe to be Kidd's island.

 

[Bocaj]

Bocaj,
- I would not overestimate the advantages of technology. A common fault in people these days. I use tech whenever it's helpful, and take whatever advantages I can get.
- someone else could already taken it out without leaving any trace Very true.
- Kidd did invent that treasure as a desperate way to save his neck People don't draw maps to a 'made up' treasure.
- 300 years is a lot of time, tectonic activity can change the shape of that island including sink it into the sea (327 years) Tectonic activity has not adversely affected my island.
- climate change can convert the whole place into a desert and strip the bit of vegetation than the maps mention and also change beaches etc. Neither has Climate change.
- Palmer was sold some copies of a real island that was used by smugglers and pirates but had nothing to do with Kidd (a very real possibility and I really like to exclude that first)
Do you have any details of this island or these 'copies'?

Actually sailing the places Tew, Avery and Kidd did and we get an idea where it could be otherwise it seems hopeless from where I stand. Pirate round anyone?
I already found what I believe to be Kidd's island.

Well did you visit it or is it a "I have seen the satellite image of it" kind of discovery? Huge difference in my experience.

For what I have seen so far non of the islands other people have searched have much in common with the maps! Of course everyone makes up excuses. Especially the idea that its encoded or the compass is upside down and so on. Most are too lazy to travel and put it just close to their holiday vacations. Whatever you have found if it doesn't fit on the map and has the same orientation (with some degree of error) then don't waste your time on it!

In the 17th century people didn't watch Hollywood movies - they draw straight maps. They didn't draw the map from satellite images so the general shape will not be that exact. But in the places they did visit and where the treasure is buried you can count on all details being more exact then you can see in a satellite image. Also as seamen they were quite skilled at distances (if the tell 360yards then they mean it) and compass bearings. Also Lat., Long., place names are not encoded but common knowledge at the time.

Also in the 17th centuries every country's navigators and mapmakers used their own null meridian, names for places and islands.

From your post I can see you place your island somewhere in between the Windward islands and Rhode Island. Well good luck then...

 

[BennyV]

Couple of things.

Good read on what’s was found on Gardiner’s island:https://www.danspapers.com/2022/08/captain-kidd-gardiner-treasure-revealed/

I believe he had a stash somewhere. Was it a 100k pounds or not who knows. Kidd was obviously crafty. He dealt with some high ranking financiers and politicians; probably all the way up to the crown. I’m sure he hedged his bets just in case.

I personally wouldn’t be surprised if he stashed some loot around NYC/Long Island Sound. Plenty of small islands, small covers & inlets, sparsely populated homesteads, and basically a gray area where people didn’t even pick a side during the revolution. Not too far from NYC, CT, or Long Island.

For all intents and purposes he DID bury some treasure on Gardiner’s Island. Why not somewhere else as well?

 

[Randawg72]

Well did you visit it or is it a "I have seen the satellite image of it" kind of discovery? Huge difference in my experience.

Bocaj,
I discovered my island while researching something else. And it wasn't by satellite image.
The key is focusing on the geographic features rather than the shape of the island relative to the charts.
I am an even harsher critic of my own theories than those of others. And have since studied this Island and Kidd's charts thoroughly enough to write a book about them.
While I am planning a trip there, I'm not ready to reveal my island just yet.

 

[Bocaj]

Bocaj,
I discovered my island while researching something else. And it wasn't by satellite image.
The key is focusing on the geographic features rather than the shape of the island relative to the charts.
I am an even harsher critic of my own theories than those of others. And have since studied this Island and Kidd's charts thoroughly enough to write a book about them.
While I am planning a trip there, I'm not ready to reveal my island just yet.

Well I see a lot of contradictions in what you are claiming in the first post:

I do Not believe the treasure is located anywhere near the America's nor the China Sea. I may (or may not) have solved some of the clues in this 328 year old mystery.

But at the same time you claim the sale of the goods being the source of it! So he sold the goods of the QM and then sailed back into the Indian Ocean and buried his treasure there (to keep the timeline intact he used an UFO he found on the way?)
Btw I do share the believe that the treasure is neither buried near the America's nor China but as you are not willing to reveal the place it of not much use to continue any discussion here I guess...

 

[Randawg72]

Well I see a lot of contradictions in what you are claiming in the first post:

But at the same time you claim the sale of the goods being the source of it! So he sold the goods of the QM and then sailed back into the Indian Ocean and buried his treasure there (to keep the timeline intact he used an UFO he found on the way?)
Btw I do share the believe that the treasure is neither buried near the America's nor China but as you are not willing to reveal the place it of not much use to continue any discussion here I guess...

Am I supposed to give you a fuming retort to this ridiculous post?
Your confused assumptions are your problem. It makes me sad that
our friendly conversation was nothing more than a cheap shakedown.

 

[Randawg72]

I personally wouldn’t be surprised if he stashed some loot around NYC/Long Island Sound. Plenty of small islands, small covers & inlets, sparsely populated homesteads, and basically a gray area where people didn’t even pick a side during the revolution. Not too far from NYC, CT, or Long Island.

For all intents and purposes he DID bury some treasure on Gardiner’s Island. Why not somewhere else as well?

Hi BennyV,
Logical, but too far North I think. Kidd's charts mention coral reefs and sea turtles which suggest a more tropical location.

 

[BennyV]

Hi BennyV,
Logical, but too far North I think. Kidd's charts mention coral reefs and sea turtles which suggest a more tropical location.

I’m not saying the map you shared is up this way. I’m simply saying he could have buried some loot around here.

 

[Randawg72]

I’m not saying the map you shared is up this way. I’m simply saying he could have buried some loot around here.

That's true. I don't believe that Kidd ever drew a map to his Gardiner's Island stash either.

 

[BennyV]

That's true. I don't believe that Kidd ever drew a map to his Gardiner's Island stash either.

Nope. Just word of mouth.