The Peralta Stones

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Sounds good. Lot's of stuff out there that people know about but can't speak of.

Look forward to hearing about it when Jim is ready.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[coazon de oro]

Hello Fellow Head Scratchers, The findings of Mike Gollum, or should I say the Sonora Mex etching, sure tie these stones more to the Peraltas. The heart near the hind feet of the horse in my opinion seem to look more like erasures made by the maker himself. Homar

 

[somehiker]

Mike:

From the Priest Map.
"Across the valley is a mound,with the shape of a heart."
This is such a view.
From the opposite side of the mound,and from the position indicated by the unusual triangle on the upper map stone,a landmark that perfectly matches that triangle can be seen.

Regards:SH

 

[Jim Hatt]

Damned if that "Mound" doesn't look like a tailing pile Wayne!
Notice how the color of it is darker that the ground it's sitting on?
Looks like subsurface material to me.

Jim

 

[gollum]

Mike:

From the Priest Map.
"Across the valley is a mound,with the shape of a heart."
This is such a view.
From the opposite side of the mound,and from the position indicated by the unusual triangle on the upper map stone,a landmark that perfectly matches that triangle can be seen.

Regards:SH

Mound maybe, but the symbol you call a mound is a well known symbol for a horizontal tunnel. That is why I think the end of the trail actually matches one of the descriptions of the DLM. An open pit mine with an unfinished horizontal shaft at the base of the hill/mt.

Best-Mike

 

[somehiker]

Hi Jim:
If someone wanted to cover a mine,as opposed to filling it(too much work to re-open later),it wouldn't take very much of the tailings from the mine to do so.The balance of tailings would have to be taken away and disposed of elsewhere,if the mine(s) were to be camouflaged...right?
One way would be to take the tailings and spread them around a wide area.If you had something that you wanted to cover over,and not too far distant,you could actually kill two birds with one stone.
I didn't look for any covered mines,but there are a few areas on the slope where I was standing for the photo,that appear to be shallow depressions where some of the fill has been taken from.There is an old trail,well worn in places and also quite wide in places as well,that winds it's way up the slope to the big cave and the level triangle.From the top,you again have an excellent view to the north of the third and strangest triangle,(the one in the photo I sent),and the scraped heart on the hillside that I posted previously.
The mound is situated on a gently stepped slope of mostly bare bedrock with flat areas on the uphill side.As I said before,the mound is mostly composed of small broken rock and yes,fine gravel and dirt of a contrasting darker colour.The pointed end of the mound is quite sharp and appears to be partly natural and partly not.The big P visible in the sat view is an area of small rocks,flat and closely spaced together.It is mostly obscured by brush now.The opening of the P is a shallow depression.There is also a large,oblong pile of larger rock and stream worn pebbles on top.A few other piles of larger rocks are also scattered over the mound.
It almost looks natural,but it's not.I may offer an explanation for that observation later,when I have more time.

One more thing,which I did not have time to investigate.Up,and to the right of the area in the photo,(up and to the left of the mound,when viewed from the pointed end) is a cave.That cave is situated in the wider butt end of a ridge that is long and narrow and ends in a sharp point.I mean to climb up there for a look around next time.

This photo,taken from the mound, shows the trail and some of the areas from which material may have been taken.

Regards:SH

 

[somehiker]

Mike:

From the Priest Map.
"Across the valley is a mound,with the shape of a heart."
This is such a view.
From the opposite side of the mound,and from the position indicated by the unusual triangle on the upper map stone,a landmark that perfectly matches that triangle can be seen.

Regards:SH

Mound maybe, but the symbol you call a mound is a well known symbol for a horizontal tunnel. That is why I think the end of the trail actually matches one of the descriptions of the DLM. An open pit mine with an unfinished horizontal shaft at the base of the hill/mt.

Best-Mike

Since that symbol is well known as that for a horizontal shaft,an unwelcome visitor,following the map and the symbols that he knew well,would likely ignore the mound.Correct?
He would then keep right on looking for a "horizontal shaft",I would assume.
What then,do you make of the "- M".

Regards:SH.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

There are new methods of testing rock surfaces to determine the age of engravings/inscriptions on them, using luminescence rather than a chemical reaction. Sort of like using ultraviolet light on paper money. I think the term is thermo-luminescence dating, can't find much online to further describe it as it is a fairly new technique. There is also a method of determining how long (in years) a stone has been exposed to the Sun, which can tell how long it has lain un-buried and that could be helpful, by measuring the presence of absence of a particular isotope. In other words there are new technologies available today, far beyond what was available even ten years ago for the archaeologists.

One of the older methods, that of examining and measuring the dendrita <tiny root hairs> which are clinging to, or even penetrating into rock surfaces, IN the actual engravings, would have been very helpful however Tumlinson scrubbed the stones thoroughly so it is doubtful any of the tiny roots might have survived.

Cactusjumper is right about the comparison of the lettering style and wording being a very important factor for an epigrapher to determine the age of any stone inscription; anyone who looks into some of the other highly controversial engraved stones found in America <such as the Kensington Runestone in Minnesota and the Heavener Stone in Oklahoma> over the years will soon find this out. It would help validate the Peralta stones enormously (in the eyes of epigraphers) if some authentic Spanish, or Mexican or Jesuit stone engravings could be located that match the lettering style and wording, as well as the symbology.

One more thing that it seems no one has ever mentioned, is the possibility of obtaining a "rubbing" of the stones; this is an old and effective technique for bringing out even faint, or sometimes even details which someone has attempted to deface or rub out, by simply rubbing the surface of a paper over the stone with something like a soft pencil. Back in HS days it was a 'fun thing' to go get rubbings of very old gravestones, for they often had intricate artwork and lovely scripts. If anyone here has made any rubbings of the Peralta Stones, I would be interested in talking to him/her.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Mike:

From the Priest Map.
"Across the valley is a mound,with the shape of a heart."
This is such a view.
From the opposite side of the mound,and from the position indicated by the unusual triangle on the upper map stone,a landmark that perfectly matches that triangle can be seen.

Regards:SH

Mound maybe, but the symbol you call a mound is a well known symbol for a horizontal tunnel. That is why I think the end of the trail actually matches one of the descriptions of the DLM. An open pit mine with an unfinished horizontal shaft at the base of the hill/mt.

Best-Mike

Since that symbol is well known as that for a horizontal shaft,an unwelcome visitor,following the map and the symbols that he knew well,would likely ignore the mound.Correct?
He would then keep right on looking for a "horizontal shaft",I would assume.
What then,do you make of the "- M".

Regards:SH.

Who says it's an "M"? Look at it closely. One point higher than the other. Maybe it could be Weaver's Needle? I don't know. Since I haven't found a cave full of gold bars, your theory holds just as much water as mine. HAHAHA I'm just presenting alternatives. Getting people to think something different from what has become stagnant in many folks. They latch onto a particular set of ideas, then become too invested in them to think of alternatives.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Mike,

Is that Woody Harrelson in your avatar I like that one.

B

 

[coazon de oro]

Hello everyone, Above the horse's head, the stone is chipped. It's well rounded all around except there. I was wondering if it got chipped during the excavation, or if it was like that when uncovered? Just wondering if anything was lost? I would greatly appreciate a closeup view of this area. Thanks in advance ! Homar

 

[somehiker]

Mike:

From the Priest Map.
"Across the valley is a mound,with the shape of a heart."
This is such a view.
From the opposite side of the mound,and from the position indicated by the unusual triangle on the upper map stone,a landmark that perfectly matches that triangle can be seen.

Regards:SH

Mound maybe, but the symbol you call a mound is a well known symbol for a horizontal tunnel. That is why I think the end of the trail actually matches one of the descriptions of the DLM. An open pit mine with an unfinished horizontal shaft at the base of the hill/mt.

Best-Mike

Since that symbol is well known as that for a horizontal shaft,an unwelcome visitor,following the map and the symbols that he knew well,would likely ignore the mound.Correct?
He would then keep right on looking for a "horizontal shaft",I would assume.
What then,do you make of the "- M".

Regards:SH.

Who says it's an "M"? Look at it closely. One point higher than the other. Maybe it could be Weaver's Needle? I don't know. Since I haven't found a cave full of gold bars, your theory holds just as much water as mine. HAHAHA I'm just presenting alternatives. Getting people to think something different from what has become stagnant in many folks. They latch onto a particular set of ideas, then become too invested in them to think of alternatives.

Best-Mike

How true. It seems to be very confusing.Even to an experienced treasure hunter who may,after all,hike right on over a mound such as this on his way to Weavers Needle...poke poke.
Then again,you have said that old treasure maps have to be rotated sometimes.So maybe your theory of the M being "W"eavers would be right after all.HEHHEH.
I do believe,as well,that the needle appears on one of the stone maps.

Like yourself,I too am presenting alternatives.The ideas that I am presenting may be at odds to those beliefs which others have expressed,but they are based on my own findings within the area to which the stones apply IMHO.Where possible,I also provide photographs of my findings in order to illustrate my ideas.It is fortunate that I am able to do so,although a mere photo can never duplicate the view that one has by actually being there.HEHHEH.

I have looked into many caves out there.I never have expected to find any gold bars in any of them.Not likely that they would be exposed to sight anyhow.I suspect that any cave directly connected to the maps will contain only the more spiritual or esoteric treasures that were hidden by the makers of the maps.On the other hand,by virtue of durability,gold and silver bars as well as coin could be more easily buried within such a mound.....in plain sight,so to speak.Digging into that mound would of course be illegal....at this time.

Regards:SH

 

[Springfield]

.....I'm just presenting alternatives. Getting people to think something different from what has become stagnant in many folks. They latch onto a particular set of ideas, then become too invested in them to think of alternatives.

Best-Mike

Once a searcher constructs a strong case for reaching his goal, he may stubbornly spend decades trying to validate the theory. Human nature makes it extremely difficult for us to abandon such an effort to find another way. Is it 'bulldog tenacity' or just 'hardheadedness'?

All alternatives must remain on the table. For example, what if the text on the stones was a Baconian cypher or some other code? The assumed Spanish messages might mean something entirely different. That would be a nasty trick.

 

[Cubfan64]

I don't know how realistic it is, but is there a possibility that despite all the cleaning that the stones have likely undertaken that there may be microscopic "contaminants" from whatever implement was used to cut the many lines?

I have a coworker that routinely analyzes micron to nanometer size contaminants for crystal structure and elemental content. Quite often he can determine that the contaminant material (small enough that you can't see it with the naked eye) is part of a certain grade of steel implement used in the process.

In this case, the analysis would be more along the lines of ruling out more modern alloys of metal.

Isotopic analyses may have some merit as well, although I'm definitely not versed in any of that sort of work.

Not sure what other kind of chemical analysis could be done to prove anything, but there's always new technology out there every day. I'm definitely interested in the possibilities and look forward to hearing how it works out. Most importantly, I think in a case like this, showing all of the data is really important rather than just seeing someone's conclusions. I know firsthand how data can be misinterpretted, not statistically significant, etc... I've seen my own company go "full speed ahead" on multimillion dollar projects based on wrong conclusions, poor experimental design to start with and not statistically significant results.

 

[Springfield]

I don't know how realistic it is, but is there a possibility that despite all the cleaning that the stones have likely undertaken that there may be microscopic "contaminants" from whatever implement was used to cut the many lines?
.....

I wonder about what effect the releasing agent and latex, each applied numerous times as I understand from Jim's description above, may have had with whatever residues may have been in the grooves?

 

[Cubfan64]

I don't know how realistic it is, but is there a possibility that despite all the cleaning that the stones have likely undertaken that there may be microscopic "contaminants" from whatever implement was used to cut the many lines?
.....

I wonder about what effect the releasing agent and latex, each applied numerous times as I understand from Jim's description above, may have had with whatever residues may have been in the grooves?

Very true Springfield - it would be very tedious and a "crap shoot" to possibly scan for contaminant materials, but they could still be there.

Another interesting question is whether there was really just one "master mold" made of the original stones and all the remaining copies were made from that?

By the way, here's a VERY interesting article along the same topic we're discussing. Granted the article is primarily discussing analyzing marble, but it's a nice insight into techniques and should lead to doing more searches for even more ideas of how to analyze the Stone Maps. Whether anyone has the funds or willingness to actually let them undergo extensive analysis remains to be seen - it's not an easy decision.
http://www.udel.edu/ArtHistory/chapman/arth301/pdf/Margolis.pdf

 

[Springfield]

I don't know how realistic it is, but is there a possibility that despite all the cleaning that the stones have likely undertaken that there may be microscopic "contaminants" from whatever implement was used to cut the many lines?
.....

I wonder about what effect the releasing agent and latex, each applied numerous times as I understand from Jim's description above, may have had with whatever residues may have been in the grooves?

Very true Springfield - it would be very tedious and a "crap shoot" to possibly scan for contaminant materials, but they could still be there.

Another interesting question is whether there was really just one "master mold" made of the original stones and all the remaining copies were made from that?

By the way, here's a VERY interesting article along the same topic we're discussing. Granted the article is primarily discussing analyzing marble, but it's a nice insight into techniques and should lead to doing more searches for even more ideas of how to analyze the Stone Maps. Whether anyone has the funds or willingness to actually let them undergo extensive analysis remains to be seen - it's not an easy decision.
http://www.udel.edu/ArtHistory/chapman/arth301/pdf/Margolis.pdf

It's tough to apply pure technology in these sorts of things. At some point a human must apply a value judgement to the data - he may be right, he may be wrong. I've seen a number of archy-types claim to be able to date petroglyphs, for example. They talk a good game and their standing in academic/scientific circles adds weight to their opinions, but to date I haven't seen a fool-proof method. Those who use scientific analysis base their opinions on 'odds'. Those who use anthropological reasoning based on similarities to other carvings are particularly suspect. This is my opinion only and I could be wrong.

 

[Jim Hatt]

Hola amigos,

There are new methods of testing rock surfaces to determine the age of engravings/inscriptions on them, using luminescence rather than a chemical reaction. Sort of like using ultraviolet light on paper money. I think the term is thermo-luminescence dating, can't find much online to further describe it as it is a fairly new technique.
Oroblanco

Good Morning Roy,

Thermoluminescence itself is a process that has been used for measuring absorbed dose of radioactivity, dating back almost to the time of Madam Curie (Credited with being the founder of radioactivity) Crystalline minerals like quartz, feldspar, diamond and calcite all have Thermoluminescent qualities, where absorbed radiation is stored in the mineral as energy. It remains in the crystal until it is heated. When heated the stored energy is released in the form of light, which can be measured, and will be directly proportional to the amount of radiation absorbed.

Thermoluminescent dosimetry is the primary method used to collect, and record radiation doses of personnel working around any kind of ionizing radiation, primarily in the medical (X-Ray and chemo therapy) and Nuclear professions. Physicists have been studying its properties for a long time, in hope of finding a way to use it as a way of dating objects, but unknown variables in the process of natural occurring thermoluminescence in the field make it too unreliable to be trusted. When used as dosimetry for personnel every "Chip" has to be calibrated to determine it own unique correction factor, before being issued for use. This process removes around 90% of the unknown variables making the process around 90% accurate.

In naturally occurring thermoluminescence, (occurring outside the controlled conditions of a laboratory) the best accuracy that has been obtained is somewhere around 10% +/- 100%. In other words ZER0 % accuracy.

They keep trying... Maybe someday they will find a way to do it, but so far there is no hope in sight. In the mean time it is great stuff for PhD candidates in Physics to experiment with, and write theories about.

I am surprised there is not much about it online. I would think you could spend all day reading about it.

Hope this helps,

jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Can't help but think that such tests have been done.......long ago. The Mining and Mineral Museum has been having financial difficulties for a number of years now. Like everyone else, these are uncertain times for them. I would not hold my breath looking for those tests anytime soon. On another matter......Jim, My apologies for having any doubts on the Life thingie. When I got home last night I looked, and you were correct. No such picture in the article. Without the magazine at hand, the picture looked exactly like the quality of the Life shots I had in my computer at the shop. Question for me now, is where did that picture come from. Considering the style, if not from Life, another magazine seems likely. Perhaps "Desert Magazine".

As I said, "Jim could be correct, since he went to the magazine to check. I am at the store and only have the pictures in the computer at hand. They are, however, in the "Life" folder. I may have fooled myself there. "

I should know better than to be so positive when I am depending on my memory. Trouble is, I can never remember that rule.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

Can't help but think that such tests have been done.......long ago. The Mining and Mineral Museum has been having financial difficulties for a number of years now. Like everyone else, these are uncertain times for them. I would not hold my breath looking for those tests anytime soon. On another matter......Jim, My apologies for having any doubts on the Life thingie. When I got home last night I looked, and you were correct. No such picture in the article. Without the magazine at hand, the picture looked exactly like the quality of the Life shots I had in my computer at the shop. Question for me now, is where did that picture come from. Considering the style, if not from Life, another magazine seems likely. Perhaps "Desert Magazine".

As I said, "Jim could be correct, since he went to the magazine to check. I am at the store and only have the pictures in the computer at hand. They are, however, in the "Life" folder. I may have fooled myself there. "

I should know better than to be so positive when I am depending on my memory. Trouble is, I can never remember that rule.

Take care,

Joe

I mentioned earlier that I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the photo was probably one of many that never made it into the actual article but still survived in the archives.

Check this site and scroll through the "more" photographs to the right - it lists the photographer and date - how many of these photos are in the article?

http://images.google.com/hosted/lif...ges?q=stone+maps+source:life&hl=en&tbs=isch:1