The Peralta Stones

Cubfan64 said:
Just something that I happened to think of today in trying to approach the Stone Maps issue from a different direction.

Assuming they aren't a hoax, and assuming Tumlinson actually found them where he said he did, who were the maker(s) of the Stone Maps trying to keep from finding whatever it is they are supposed to point out?

As sophisticated and complicated as some of the theories seem to be here, one would think that the maker(s) were afraid they might fall into the hands of master code breakers or at least learned men. Who were these learned people they were trying to confuse? If they were only trying to keep Native Americans, Pioneers and Mexican Peons from figuring out where the Stones lead, why would it have to be so complicated?
Click to expand...

The simple answer to "who were the makers trying to hide the loot from?" is EVERYBODY ELSE.

If Jesuits made the stones, then the main group they wanted to hide them from was the Spanish.

Mike
 

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gollum said:
Cubfan64 said:
Just something that I happened to think of today in trying to approach the Stone Maps issue from a different direction.

Assuming they aren't a hoax, and assuming Tumlinson actually found them where he said he did, who were the maker(s) of the Stone Maps trying to keep from finding whatever it is they are supposed to point out?

As sophisticated and complicated as some of the theories seem to be here, one would think that the maker(s) were afraid they might fall into the hands of master code breakers or at least learned men. Who were these learned people they were trying to confuse? If they were only trying to keep Native Americans, Pioneers and Mexican Peons from figuring out where the Stones lead, why would it have to be so complicated?
Click to expand...

The simple answer to "who were the makers trying to hide the loot from?" is EVERYBODY ELSE.

If Jesuits made the stones, then the main group they wanted to hide them from was the Spanish.

Mike
Click to expand...

First, I do believe the capable Jesuits, directly or indirectly, were certainly involved in mining intrigues and other activities at certain locations that are somehow associated with the caching of significent quantities of precious metals in the American southwest. I also believe that they were not at the top of the organization chart, but were 'team players' for others whose identities are obscure.

OK, that said, let's assume for the moment the 'Peralta stones' were created by the Jesuits to map locations of bullion caches and/or gold/silver mines. Then, an interesting question might be, "Who is the legal owner of the (assumed) cache(s) and/or mines?" Here's another: "Why haven't the caches yet been claimed and recovered by their owners?" And another: "If Elmer Fudd stumbles across the caches, can he claim them? If not, why is he looking for them?" And the mines: "Why weren't the mines later relocated, claimed and exploited? If the Peraltas knew where they were, why didn't they file on them before the Wilderness Act (if they're located there)?" Surely, the relatives back home in Mexico have a map.

This is the point where many of these sorts of legends break down for me. The guys over on the 'Treasure Marks and Signs' catagory have 'located' a thousand 'Spanish treasure accumulation rooms' all over the place and nobody seems to have an answer to the question, "Why didn't the miners take the gold back to Mexico with them?" Why travel all the way into uncharted land beyond the Northern Frontier, work a year or two mining/accumulating gold, then bury it before you return home? If you have to fight for your life against the Indians all the way back to Mexico, why not try to take the goods with you? If they kill you, it doesn't matter - if they don't, you're rico. A party of miners with their horses, pack animals, supplies and whatever could certainly lug a few hundred pounds of gold with them, couldn't they?

[End of rant]
 

Springfield,

I have been researching the Jesuit aspect of the Stone Maps for over forty years. At this point, I don't believe they had anything to do with them.

Due to recent revelations, I have my doubts that the accounts we have heard of the Peralta's or Spanish being massacred at the massacre grounds is true. If anyone wants to dispute that opinion, all I need to convince me it took place, is to have the diaries from which the information is said to have come from submitted to ASU or any other accredited institution, for authentication.

It's well past time to get real on some of these stories.

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper said:
Springfield,

I have been researching the Jesuit aspect of the Stone Maps for over forty years. At this point, I don't believe they had anything to do with them.

Due to recent revelations, I have my doubts that the accounts we have heard of the Peralta's or Spanish being massacred at the massacre grounds is true. If anyone wants to dispute that opinion, all I need to convince me it took place, is to have the diaries from which the information is said to have come from submitted to ASU or any other accredited institution, for authentication.

It's well past time to get real on some of these stories.

Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...

I've always had problems with these stones. To begin with, their provenence is a farce in my opinion, which is a gigantic red flag for me. Next, I don't quite understand their purpose in the real world as explained by their proponents. Their implied purpose, seemingly so obvious on first glance, just seems a little 'too pat' and unnecessary to my eye. Their complexity also seems unnecessary and contrived to me, as I mentioned in an earlier post. While we're at it, the carvings seem out of place and '20th century trying to look old', and not pulling it off.

I do suspect that there is a cache of great value somewhere in the central Arizona region - provenence and owners unclear. But for me, the Peralta stones will never lead the searcher to the prize (might have something to do with their 'true purpose'). Of course, I could be wrong.

Concerning your above mentioned doubts about the massacre grounds: if the Lost Dutchman Mine/Lost Peralta Mines/Superstition Mountains puzzle were a crime scene, a forensic detective would go mad trying to find a solution he could hang his hat on. Too much contamination.
 

Best codemakers? American Indians. Remember what was used during the war, Mike? A language that the enemy could not decode. Native Americans, not mathematicians.

Beth
 

Overall, I get the impression that there are 8 different formats in which to read the map. In other words, they drew 8 different maps and over laid them one on top of the other so as to create the confusion we are victim to. Separately, each is basic and step by step. Pick your topic............

The Witch and his World (reference of course)
The Mason Don and his Craft
The Horse Soldier
The Ocean Navigator
The Star Charts
The Peon
The Military Strategist and his various gun size ranges and their angles...........
And of course the Monk

Simple Symbol Reference.
 

Hello Beth,

The idea was actually from a fellow by the name of Philip Johnston who's father had been a Protestant missionary. His childhood was spent on the Navajo reservation. As a result of that, Philip was immerses in Navajo culture, and was of the few white men who could speak the language fluently. The literacy rate was very low on the reservation, lack of funds, so it was not an easy task to bring the Navajo into the working code.

Three other tribe were considered for the project, but the Navajo tribe was the largest in numbers. The Navajo were picked because it was the only tribe that had not been infested with German students in the last twenty years.

The major problem with using a Native American language for a code, was the lack of equivalent Indian words for military jargon. In World War I, the same problem hindered the use of the Choctaw Indians language for a code in Northern France. The Marine Corps found an answer.

They substituted Navajo words for the military jargon that had no Navajo equivalent. For instance, bombs were called "eggs", which in Navajo was "A-ye-shi". A fighter plane was called a "Hummingbird" which was "Sa-he-tih-hi" in the Navajo language. Where there were no Navajo words that could cover the situation, they developed a "Navajo alphabet code" which was a simple substitution code. A was Ant, which was Wol-la-chee, B was Bear which was Shush.......etc.

It was a code that was never broken, but the Navajo speakers had no part in the idea or devising the code. That does not lessen their part in implementing the code, which only they could understand.
They were not the best "code makers" but they certainly utilized the best code, as only they could.

Take care,

Joe
 

Good example; like the tablets, a piece of cake to their kind and utter gibberish to most others.
 

Twisted fork, you posted--> a piece of cake to their kind and utter gibberish to most others.
**************
I hope that you aren't referring to my posts. snifff. I try, honest, despite what oro, cactus, gully, and BB say.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

We want to see both sides from every angle so sooner than :coffee2: later it will all go bingo......
 

Don Jose,

I can't imagine why anyone is giving one ounce of credence to anything Mr. Fork says. His Adams story and family history are both products of very superficial research and an active imagination.

He brought the family name into the conversation here, and when questioned about some serious mistakes, went silent. It must be embarrassing to have some old Italian geezer having more knowledge about his family (?) than he does.

I hope the rest of his research is better than his family history research.

Do I smell another Stone Map book theory being floated on TreasureNet? To be honest, he has an interesting mix of treasure legends being presented. George Mason Adams is a new twist, but there is no history to back up the story. Beyond that, there is way too much documented Adams history to pull off such a made up story.

Take care,

Joe
 

CJ,

While I mostly agree with your assessment - "code-talkers" were not just used once. The practice was actually used in both world wars.

In World War One (France) the 142nd Infantry Regiment had a company of Native Americans that spoke 26 different languages(dialects), of which only 4 or 5 had actually had real writing attached to them. Two Indian officers were selected to supervise a communications system staffed by Choctaw Indians. They were used in the regiment's operations in October 1918, in the Chufilly-Chardeny zone, transmitting in their native tongue a variety of open voice messages, relating to unit movements, which the enemy, who was completely surprised in the action, obviously could not break.

In World War II, A group of 24 Navajos was assembled to handle telephone communications, using voice codes in their native tongue, between the Air Commander in the Solomon Islands and various airfields in the region. The U.S. Marine Corps also used Navajo code talkers extensively in the Pacific Theater. And in Europe, the 4th Signal Company of the Army's 4th Infantry Division was assigned 16 Comanches for employment as voice radio operators to transmit and receive messages in their own unwritten language.

Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Peleliu, Iwo Jima: the Navajo code talkers took part in every assault the US Marines conducted in the Pacific from 1942 to 1945. They served in all six Marine divisions, Marine Raider battalions and Marine parachute units, transmitting messages by telephone and radio in their native language — a code that the Japanese never broke.

Johnston, by the way, GOT the idea to use "code-talkers" in WW2 from its use in WW1.

Beth
 

Cubfan64 said that knowing who the maps were meant to not be able to read them might be useful, which is a good point.

I think this has been brought up before, but I have been wondering, "Who was supposed to be able to read them?" And this could be a valid point of thought, whether they are "real" or "fake"! That is, if they are fakes, who would the maker(s) suppose would be evaluating them?

If they are an extremely complex code, then who could possibly read them?

1. If it were the Peraltas, and the stones were meant to be read only by family members, then they could have their very own code, not based on anything in particular, to the extent that nobody would be able to read it without some kind of key or verbal knowledge of how it works, what stands for what, etc. That is, in order to be able to break a code, there must be enough of it to allow the breaker to establish some kind of a pattern in order to gain an entrance point, and work from there to get the rest, or most, of the code; usually by verifying certain parts of the message as they go, in order to base further possible meanings on those verified parts (otherwise, the whole thing would merely be a big guess, which, unless someone actually found the treasure, would be essentially worthless).

I think it is doubtful that there is enough information on the stones to enable breaking this kind of code. And this type of code, by definition, would appear only on these stones.

This kind of code would have the liability that if only a very few family members were verbally given the code, the entire family would suffer a huge loss if they suddenly were "no longer around," and none of them had time to pass-on the code.

And if they verbally gave the code to most or all of the family, it seems a bit dangerous, because of the likelyhood that a large family (families where multiple generations live with or near each other), would have some undesirables, who might sell the information or search it out themselves.

2. The above theory would logically also pertain to any group.

3. One alternate system to the above would be if the maker(s) also left some kind of documented key(s) to the meanings, which can also be dangerous, for the same reasons mentioned above.


That leaves the remaining possibilities of: It was designed, and meant to be readable, by others who had a common knowledge of the coding system. Or, it was not so much a coding system, but symbology which other trusted members of the group would recognize. Or some combination thereof.

The reason for talking about groups of people as the "readers", to begin with, is that maps are only made for three purposes: To remind oneself of where a location is, to show one other person where it is, or to show a group of people where it is. And these stones don't appear to be for the purpose of merely reminding oneself, as they could be much abbreviated if only for that purpose.

I would also think that if it were only an actual "family" affair, that they would also be more abbreviated than they appear to be.

So, I think that suggests only the "knowledgeable group" as likely. And that leads to the question, "What group (if any) would be knowledgeable in the type of symbolism which is on these maps, or would make and distribute amongst themselves a special code of this type?" Which also leads to the question, "Has any other similar code been found documented and/or used?"

In addition to all that, there is the possibility that they are just a map, and no code breaking is necessary. There are, however, several symbols, including the mysterious holes, that aren't readily understandable to most people these days.

So actually two searches are suggested. One the search for the location, using the stones as merely a map. And the second is the search for a group using symbols or code similar to those found on the stones, and thus finding a key to the code.

It appears that at least one person, cactusjumper, has followed the map to an end, and documented the map reading, waypoints, and end point, including photographs. While interpretation of the mapping symbols requires considerable intelligence and insight, and thus could be considered "code breaking," it doesn't really seem to fit the meaning which has been intensively discussed on this forum. So his accomplishment is basically one vote for "They're just a map."

I don't think anybody has successfully broken an actual "complex code" on the maps, if there indeed is one. I, myself, have no way of knowing, so far, if the suspected groups mentioned by those attempting to break the code, actually jibe with the symbols on the stones.

I'm just going by what I've read so far, and don't mean to leave anyone's accomplishments out, or make any misrepresentations. So please correct any errors.

:coffee2:
 

Beth,

"While I mostly agree with your assessment - "code-talkers" were not just used once. The practice was actually used in both world wars."

Believe I addressed that fact with this:

"The major problem with using a Native American language for a code, was the lack of equivalent Indian words for military jargon. In World War I, the same problem hindered the use of the Choctaw Indians language for a code in Northern France. The Marine Corps found an answer."

The source for my information on the code talkers was, "The Code Book" by Simon Singh. When I first started seriously trying to determine if the maps contained a code, I did my best to, superficially, educate myself in the basics. I included all of the usual books/pamphlets by well know treasure hunters, but found them less than convincing. That is especially true of Spanish codes of the era I was interested in.

I did not feel the need to search the Net, as Singh is a pretty good authority on codes. I first quoted Singh back in 2004 on the LDM Forum with this post:
_______________________________________________

Joe Ribaudo Post subject: Spanish SecretsPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 10:03 am

Expert

Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Posts: 4628 Lou,

I hope you are aware of just how secret Spanish codes were during King Phillip's era. Every country in Europe was reading his "coded" messages on a regular basis. The simplicity of the Spanish codes was a well known weakness, and that is putting it kindly.

While you believe you have "cracked" a code that has remained unreadable for all of these years, it is really just an early form of cryptography that is taught in grade school today. The use of the Bible is noted by Kenworthy as well as other treasure hunter/authors.

When I said that your code "works", it did not mean that it was any kind of (real) secret.

All of this does not mean that you are wrong about who may have created this particular code or who used it. It's very simplicity would make it a possible creation of the Spanish period in question. Cryptography has been around for thousands of years. It was really going through an intellectual renaissance, along with art, literature, architecture and other sciences in the 14th, 15th, and 16th century. Almost every country in Europe was laughing at the "archaic" Spanish secret codes, as they were reading them.

I don't know if you have had any formal training in this field, but I suspect you haven't. If you had, you would know that almost every book ever written can be "proven" to contain a secret code. An excellent example of this would be the prediction of Lady Di's death along with Dodi's and Henri's in the text of "Moby Dick". The method used is known as "Equidistant Letter Sequences". Bible codes, which can be "proven" to exist, are really a result of "the laws of random choice".

Bottom line here, is that your code would have been figured out (very quickly) by anyone with a minimal amount of training. A cryptographer probably would have used two or three hundred pages of examples "proving" your code.

While Spain's cryptographers were still using monoalphabetic substitution codes, the rest of Europe had moved on, and their cryptanalysts were using frequency analysis to easily read the Spanish codes.

Anyone interested in learning the history of ancient codes, should pick up "The Code Book" by, Simon Singh.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
________________________________________

Take care,

Joe
 

EE,

I find your post very well thought out, and to the point.

The eighteen holes in the trail maps were monuments. It seemed unlikely that they were actually random "places". I proved this, to myself, by looking for two specific monuments shown on the Stone Maps, on the ridge above Willow Spring separating West and East Boulder Canyons. I did not have a camera with me, and those monuments have since been destroyed. Others have only my word that they were there to go on.

The three holes on the heart map, not counting the fourth on Weaver's Needle, are specific topographical landmarks. I called them locator dots. By drawing lines between the dots, you can prove the accuracy of the maps.

The trail maps are simple topographical maps. There may be some kind of code on them, but it will take someone smarter than I am to put it all together. When that person breaks that code, I would suggest that they apply it to my map, to the exclusion of all other locations in the Superstitions or, for that matter, anywhere else in the country.

I have always.......always believed that the horse/priest map was created for confusion, at a much later date than the trail maps. For that reason I never paid that much attention to them. As you can see, the theories of any code contained on them can be constrained only by the imagination of the person trying to figure it all out.

On the other hand, the trail maps do not need to be deciphered to follow them. Very simple map reading skills are all that is required. :read2:

In the final analysis, I can show 100 people the exact layout of the trails on a topographic map, draw lines between the locator dots and show where they actually cross the same landmarks on the Stone Maps, and those who believe they already know the answers will not be able to see what is obvious. As you have said....."They're just a map."


Good post,

Joe Ribaudo
 

A chain of multi-scaled chains, beginning where the tablets were buried, and ending at the mine site. Same chain, over and over it would appear, until one arrives at the Outfield Triangle.

Probably originates with rope braids and counting form. A repetition of 5 basic shapes or landforms, scaling down in distance as you go.
 

Twisted Fork said:
A chain of multi-scaled chains, beginning where the tablets were buried, and ending at the mine site. Same chain, over and over it would appear, until one arrives at the Outfield Triangle.
Click to expand...


lol
 

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