The Milk Ranch

[enigma]

enigma,

I agree only to the point an old man wrote his remembrances late in his life and tried the best he could to get everything right. I don't know what he intended but he was educated only enough to read and write and not a scholar. Pretty much everyone agrees he wrote it for his children and grandchildren, not as a public document or book of some kind. According to the Cavaness family the memoir was finished after Mathew Cavaness was in the home at Sawtele sometime around 1928 not long before he died. Christina Morrell, his sister actually wrote down the words as her brother told them. About 20 years later a member of the family gave Joe Miller permission to type the notes and he typed them exactly as they appeared on the hand written pages. Miller kept a copy for the Arizona archives. The hand written copy is still with the family in California and the archives in Arizona have a photograph of the pages. There are mistakes in the memoir but for the most part Cavaness did a good job. Good chronology ? Yes and no, depending on which page you are reading.

Cavaness had major problems with the town of Phoenix. He owned a saloon, a blacksmith shop, a freight business and had about 500 head of cattle. The city taxed him nearly to death and he was swindled on some lots in the city he had purchased. He couldn't wait to get away. Once gone he never went back. This was 1872 just before his son Albert was born. Lots more to it but I must go over to Long Beach for now and will finish later.

Matthew

he aludes to the issue with phoenix city lots and basically getting screwed out of them in some way. do you know if he, his wife and family ever had a residence in Pinal city?

 

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[Gregory E. Davis]

Great post Matthew. you answered many questions the posters had at this site. If Matt registered his brand with Maricopa prior to the brand books being established, I would assume the brand would be in the book of miscellaneous or the book of deeds or Chattel? Which one would you pick? If my memory serves me right, Maricopa County was not established until 1872 so he would have had to do this just before he left Phoenix. Am I on track? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[cactusjumper]

Great post Matthew. you answered many questions the posters had at this site. If Matt registered his brand with Maricopa prior to the brand books being established, I would assume the brand would be in the book of miscellaneous or the book of deeds or Chattel? Which one would you pick? If my memory serves me right, Maricopa County was not established until 1872 so he would have had to do this just before he left Phoenix. Am I on track? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Greg,

As I have said many, many times, I don't know anyone who knows local history better than Matthew Roberts. Well, cept
maybe Tom Kollenborn. Those gentlemen have worked very hard and many years to accumulate that knowledge.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Great post Matthew. you answered many questions the posters had at this site. If Matt registered his brand with Maricopa prior to the brand books being established, I would assume the brand would be in the book of miscellaneous or the book of deeds or Chattel? Which one would you pick? If my memory serves me right, Maricopa County was not established until 1872 so he would have had to do this just before he left Phoenix. Am I on track? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Hello Gregory,

Maricopa county was formed off of Yavapai county in early 1871. Up until that time Yavapai county kept track of such things.
before the cattlemen banded together to formally register their brands the only recourse a rancher had was to file with the county.
There were few cattle operations in 1871-1872 as the Apache ran off just about every head of stock left unguarded. 1871 and 1872 was the beginning of the ranches and they were few and far between until the Apache problem was made bearable.

I know you know this Gregory but up until just a few years ago, exactly who started the Cavaness ranch was a mystery to the men who now write about the ranch . The prevailing history was a man named Jack Miner started the ranch. Everyone believed he was the man who first ranched the Superstition range. Even local historians wrote columns about Miner.

It was pointed out to them that Matt cavaness actually started that ranch. Then with a little checking of their own they realized that yes Cavaness did indeed start that ranch, the 1st man to ranch cattle on that range. Now those men write books and articles and give speeches about it yet they do not have the whole story. I spoke with the Cavaness family this past weekend and the real story is more amazing than the Cavaness Memoirs which are little more than an outline or an overview to the actual events.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

he aludes to the issue with phoenix city lots and basically getting screwed out of them in some way. do you know if he, his wife and family ever had a residence in Pinal city?

enigma,

I know Matt Cavaness was at Pinal City for a couple years but not sure exactly when, the very early 1880's sticks in my mind.
This was when he was in between marriages though so while he was there it would have just been him and one son who was always with him.
He had divorced his first wife Alice Rowe and not yet married his second wife Laura Jackson while at Pinal.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Gregory,

Maricopa county was formed off of Yavapai county in early 1871. Up until that time Yavapai county kept track of such things.
before the cattlemen banded together to formally register their brands the only recourse a rancher had was to file with the county.
There were few cattle operations in 1871-1872 as the Apache ran off just about every head of stock left unguarded. 1871 and 1872 was the beginning of the ranches and they were few and far between until the Apache problem was made bearable.

I know you know this Gregory but up until just a few years ago, exactly who started the Cavaness ranch was a mystery to the men who now write about the ranch . The prevailing history was a man named Jack Miner started the ranch. Everyone believed he was the man who first ranched the Superstition range. Even local historians wrote columns about Miner.

It was pointed out to them that Matt cavaness actually started that ranch. Then with a little checking of their own they realized that yes Cavaness did indeed start that ranch, the 1st man to ranch cattle on that range. Now those men write books and articles and give speeches about it yet they do not have the whole story. I spoke with the Cavaness family this past weekend and the real story is more amazing than the Cavaness Memoirs which are little more than an outline or an overview to the actual events.

Matthew

Matthew,

Can't help but wonder who those men were. Not that many folks writing about the Cavaness Ranch these days. Were you a source for any of those writers?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[enigma]

enigma,

I know Matt Cavaness was at Pinal City for a couple years but not sure exactly when, the very early 1880's sticks in my mind.
This was when he was in between marriages though so while he was there it would have just been him and one son who was always with him.
He had divorced his first wife Alice Rowe and not yet married his second wife Laura Jackson while at Pinal.

Matthew

Thank you

 

[enigma]

i might be losing my mind, but didnt there used to be a thread devoted to matt cavaness and his ranch? was it deleted by the moderators or something? i thought there was alot of good information there and its disappointing to see it dissappear.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

When both OP and others start insulting and attacking each in a thread it is either clean the thread or delete the thread..... Cleaning a thread is a lot of work when it involves multiple members breaking rules......








American by birth, Patriot by choice.

I would rather die standing on my two feet defending our Constitution than live a lifetime on my knees......

 

[Goldmine]

i might be losing my mind, but didnt there used to be a thread devoted to matt cavaness and his ranch? was it deleted by the moderators or something? i thought there was alot of good information there and its disappointing to see it dissappear.

A lot of threads have been locked, deleted by either moderators or the thread authors. You may be right, I would have to do a search backward of all the old threads. Caviness was talked about a lot in a lot of threads so maybe thats what you are thinking.
The very reason a lot of threads and postings were deleted by mods and the posters is the trouble that has been going on recently with fights, squables and attacks. I know 4 or 5 members or former members who deleted their posts because people interested in things other than serious discussion would copy someones posts, then change their wording and email them all over to people with the comment, look at what that SOB posted. If you arent aware of it any post or thread can be copied off the forum and then changed to say anything the copier wants it to say. Then it can be reposted or sent out to everyone as if the original poster had written the copiers version.

Jim Hatt had this happen to him, Peter, randy, Matt, azmula and others all had it done to them. Its not new its been going on for years. Some have posted things that someone else posted in the past but cannot be linked back to the original website it was taken from. these people post it saying here's this persons post but you cant go back and read the original because it has been deleted.

Anytime you see someone posting something someone else posted but cannot be linked back to the site they got it from the chances are the post is one of those that got copied and changed to fit the copiers version or agenda. A red flag should go up every time this happens and the person posting it should be suspect. I believe treasurenet rules say you cannot post something someone else posted at a site without being able to link back to that original posting.
Ill look and see if I can find a Matt caviness thread in some old threads when I have time.

 

[cactusjumper]

A lot of threads have been locked, deleted by either moderators or the thread authors. You may be right, I would have to do a search backward of all the old threads. Caviness was talked about a lot in a lot of threads so maybe thats what you are thinking.
The very reason a lot of threads and postings were deleted by mods and the posters is the trouble that has been going on recently with fights, squables and attacks. I know 4 or 5 members or former members who deleted their posts because people interested in things other than serious discussion would copy someones posts, then change their wording and email them all over to people with the comment, look at what that SOB posted. If you arent aware of it any post or thread can be copied off the forum and then changed to say anything the copier wants it to say. Then it can be reposted or sent out to everyone as if the original poster had written the copiers version.

Jim Hatt had this happen to him, Peter, randy, Matt, azmula and others all had it done to them. Its not new its been going on for years. Some have posted things that someone else posted in the past but cannot be linked back to the original website it was taken from. these people post it saying here's this persons post but you cant go back and read the original because it has been deleted.

Anytime you see someone posting something someone else posted but cannot be linked back to the site they got it from the chances are the post is one of those that got copied and changed to fit the copiers version or agenda. A red flag should go up every time this happens and the person posting it should be suspect. I believe treasurenet rules say you cannot post something someone else posted at a site without being able to link back to that original posting.
Ill look and see if I can find a Matt caviness thread in some old threads when I have time.

Goldmine,

Many of us, who have been around awhile, have seen that some people who have a propensity for deleting their threads to hide some "questionable" assertions, know that they then come back at a later date and deny they ever posted it in the first place.

Not saying anyone here has ever done that or would do it, but using such posts with a quote. makes it more difficult for them to leave their comments in the dustbins of fading memories. It's a very attractive way for some folks to clean up their little fictions or bad mistakes.

Nice post,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Goldmine]

Interesting you would defend that practice. If a thread, post or quote cannot be linked back to it's origin it should not be used. That is the rule of every reputable forum. I think just about everyone can understand that and see the abuse that can easily be done when posting something someone else allegedly said but cannot be linked to it's source.

Turning the blame back on the persons who have been the victims of this practice is a nice twist too. Interesting.

 

[cactusjumper]

Interesting you would defend that practice. If a thread, post or quote cannot be linked back to it's origin it should not be used. That is the rule of every reputable forum. I think just about everyone can understand that and see the abuse that can easily be done when posting something someone else allegedly said but cannot be linked to it's source.

Turning the blame back on the persons who have been the victims of this practice is a nice twist too. Interesting.

Goldmine,

Don't know how you got that I was defending the practice, but can you offer any evidence that someone has had their words changed and sent to anyone? Your claim, which we have heard a number of times before has one big problem.
The source for many of the quotes you are talking about was Greg Davis. The others all came directly from the posts.

Your list of victims have all deleted their posts......themselves. Can you give us a reasonable reason for doing that?

Makes it impossible to link back to it's origin.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Goldmine]

Turning the blame back on the victims of this practice as if they did something wrong or it was there fault or as if they are all liars and scoundrels is despicable.

The practice is not allowed on any reputable forum for the very reasons I gave earlier.

How would you know, "the source for many of the quotes (I) am talking about is Greg Davis".
How would you know what quotes, I didn't give any examples of quotes.
And why do you throw Greg Davis name around ? No examples were given so how do know Greg Davis was the source for them ?
Something is not right and I think we are getting a clearer picture.

 

[cactusjumper]

Goldmine,

I know because I have been accused of changing posts in the past. They were quotes I got directly from Greg Davis.

Other than that, you are quite correct in that something is not right. You may manage to get me angry enough to get banned from this site, but "I will not go quietly into the night." Best that I just ignore your foolishness.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[enigma]

When both OP and others start insulting and attacking each in a thread it is either clean the thread or delete the thread..... Cleaning a thread is a lot of work when it involves multiple members breaking rules......

i guess i understand, but from a readers perspective i would rather see the thread locked and still exist than wiped away as if it never existed.

goldmine, i can see where that kind of abuse could happen but wasnt aware it was an ongoing problem. ive used the quote function, but never paid any attention to whether i could go in and change the quote but it does look like i can and thats definitely a problem with the forum function in my opinion. ive seen other forums where once you make a statement it can no longer be edited by the original poster and when its quoted, the quote is done in such a way that it cant be altered, i guess i figured it was that way here too but i was wrong.

going back and checking on a few posts, i found a couple instances where a poster has made a statement that turned out later to be incorrect and theyve gone back and edited their post to make it appear as though they had not made that statement, or had at least gone back and edited it but never mentioned why they made the edit.

all in all it makes it difficult if not impossible to even follow some threads after a few weeks when you go back to recall something and it's all been changed.

maybe its just pointless to get into discussions on social network sites and forums like this. too many things are changed, deleted, edited, cleaned up, locked, etc..... to even make it worthwhile

edit - added a paragraph

yes, there was a thread entitled matt cavaness and the board house started by mr. roberts which had been locked, but was full of information that is now gone. being that it was locked, i don't really understand the need to delete it but its gone nontheless. i hate to spend time reading, looking up information, contacting libraries and spending real money to have people look up and send me copies of things im not able to get right now in person only to have the conversations that took place about that information and information that i shared be deleted. its' very disheartening.

 

[Somero]

i guess i understand, but from a readers perspective i would rather see the thread locked and still exist than wiped away as if it never existed.

goldmine, i can see where that kind of abuse could happen but wasnt aware it was an ongoing problem. ive used the quote function, but never paid any attention to whether i could go in and change the quote but it does look like i can and thats definitely a problem with the forum function in my opinion. ive seen other forums where once you make a statement it can no longer be edited by the original poster and when its quoted, the quote is done in such a way that it cant be altered, i guess i figured it was that way here too but i was wrong.

going back and checking on a few posts, i found a couple instances where a poster has made a statement that turned out later to be incorrect and theyve gone back and edited their post to make it appear as though they had not made that statement, or had at least gone back and edited it but never mentioned why they made the edit.

all in all it makes it difficult if not impossible to even follow some threads after a few weeks when you go back to recall something and it's all been changed.

maybe its just pointless to get into discussions on social network sites and forums like this. too many things are changed, deleted, edited, cleaned up, locked, etc..... to even make it worthwhile

edit - added a paragraph

yes, there was a thread entitled matt cavaness and the board house started by mr. roberts which had been locked, but was full of information that is now gone. being that it was locked, i don't really understand the need to delete it but its gone nontheless. i hate to spend time reading, looking up information, contacting libraries and spending real money to have people look up and send me copies of things im not able to get right now in person only to have the conversations that took place about that information and information that i shared be deleted. its' very disheartening.

When you quote a post there is that little blueish square right after the name that when clicked on will take you back to the original quote. One of the benefits of quoting someone is if they change or delete the original post the quote remains the same.

Back to the Milk Ranch?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Members changing someone's quote is a serious offense here and will get them in trouble quickly...






American by birth, Patriot by choice.

I would rather die standing on my two feet defending our Constitution than live a lifetime on my knees......

 

[Goldmine]

Goldmine,

I know because I have been accused of changing posts in the past. They were quotes I got directly from Greg Davis.

Other than that, you are quite correct in that something is not right. You may manage to get me angry enough to get banned from this site, but "I will not go quietly into the night." Best that I just ignore your foolishness.

Joe Ribaudo

I'm not trying to get anyone angry or banned and your " I will not go quietly into the night " statement made directly to me sounds like a threat. Which the mods have said they will not allow. And calling me and my post(s) (opinion) "foolishness" is another violation of TNET rules, disrespect of other members . Something TNET mods have said they don't allow.

What are you going to do ? Why would your not going quietly into the night be directed toward me. I just have a different opinion than you. I don't threaten you because you have a different opinion. I have no ill will toward you.

Goldmine

 

[Tnmountains]

Not worth our effort to keep coming in and when members act like 6th graders. You all have lost another thread. Good job!