The Milk Ranch

[Goldmine]

Good morning Goldmine: Referencing your inquiry about the Cavaness Manuscript, I quote: "Memoirs of Matt Cavaness, Typed as written, from a longhand manuscript by Matt Cavaness, Arizona Pioneer", Joseph Miller 1950. (Joseph Miller was the librarian at the archives in the 1950's. He was also one of the persons who compiled the material for the "Hayden Reports"). Property of the Department of Library and Archives, Arizona, Number 58531. It is located at the Arizona State Archives Building on 19th. Avenue. The original is also on microfilm, so they may not let you make a copy directly from the original hand written document but only from the microfilm copy. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Thank you Mr Davis. I knew someone at the history museum had typed the cavaness diary but didn't know who or when. Anybody who reads it should understand the diary wasn't ever meant to be a certified historic document. It was just one man writing about what he remembered during his life. cavaness was an old man when he wrote the diary and not the best health so there are mistakes, dates, places that came out wrong in the telling.
Goldmine

 

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[cactusjumper]

Greg,

Actually, I was the one who first inquired about the manuscript.

Does anyone know who has the original hand-written manuscript for the Cavaness Manuscript? Has it ever been submitted to a qualified authentication process? I have a copy of the manuscript, but don't have much confidence in its authenticity.

Does anyone know if Matt placed his second wife at the Milk Ranch, along with two children?

Joe Ribaudo

In any case, thank you for your reply.

Take care,

Joe

 

[enigma]

Thank you Mr Davis. I knew someone at the history museum had typed the cavaness diary but didn't know who or when. Anybody who reads it should understand the diary wasn't ever meant to be a certified historic document. It was just one man writing about what he remembered during his life. cavaness was an old man when he wrote the diary and not the best health so there are mistakes, dates, places that came out wrong in the telling.
Goldmine

so far from what ive read i would not agree. the dates, times and events he mentions are for the most part very accurate from what ive seen. lots of his statements can be backed up by primary sources, newspaper accuonts, military records and other historical records of the times.

 

[Goldmine]

so far from what ive read i would not agree. the dates, times and events he mentions are for the most part very accurate from what ive seen. lots of his statements can be backed up by primary sources, newspaper accuonts, military records and other historical records of the times.

I know of four errors in date, place and people in the diary which is about normal for an elderly man trying to remember a lifetime of events and get everything spot on. nothing unusuall.
so I guess we just have to agree to not agree.

 

[enigma]

I know of four errors in date, place and people in the diary which is about normal for an elderly man trying to remember a lifetime of events and get everything spot on. nothing unusuall.
so I guess we just have to agree to not agree.

i think we probably agree better than i implied. for the number of pages of the manuscript and the fairly extensive statements of dates, times, places, people, events, etc, his number of errors are minor in comparison to what i would have expected and i dont think too many are glaring errors. either he had an excellent memory when he wrote all this down in his later years or he had a diary that he kept in order to get as many of the things correct as he did. i didnt mean he hadn't made any mistakes, just fewer than I expected.

i know for myself i wouldnt be able to remember the exact years or exact dates or also all the names of people I spent a lot of time with 40 to 50 years ago.

 

[enigma]

Matt Cavaness registered his River brand in Maricopa county for his Superstition mountains ranch in 1873 so the ranch was at least established by that time.
Don't know about the Matt Cavaness memoirs and if they have been qualified or not, maybe Matthew knows ?
Goldmine

Goldmine, i cant find a copy of that registration, can you share a copy or do yuo have more information on it? mr roberts or mr davis, can you shed any light on the specific date that matt cavaness began ranching at the current location of the qcu?

ive read more the last few days from other writers like kollenborn, j feldman, and j san felice and they all point to matt cavaness beginning his ranch in the 1875-1878 timeframe with him giving it to his wife after there divorce in 1881 and her then selling it to marlowe in 1882.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Some would argue that divorce property divisions are not 'giving' :P

 

[cactusjumper]

Goldmine, i cant find a copy of that registration, can you share a copy or do yuo have more information on it? mr roberts or mr davis, can you shed any light on the specific date that matt cavaness began ranching at the current location of the qcu?

ive read more the last few days from other writers like kollenborn, j feldman, and j san felice and they all point to matt cavaness beginning his ranch in the 1875-1878 timeframe with him giving it to his wife after there divorce in 1881 and her then selling it to marlowe in 1882.

enigma,

It states in the Cavaness Manuscript that " I haul freight up until 1876." The chronology of the manuscript places the building of his ranch after he stops the freight business.......sometime. Quite a bit of water flows under the bridge before he starts the ranch.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Goldmine]

The records of the ranches, brands, allotments, patents etc. are found in several places, the Dorothy Webb Ariz. Cattle Growers Association collection, Richard Schaus collection and I believe but am not altogether sure the Roscoe Willson collection. I'm sure there are others Gregory or Matt could refer to.

Cavaness manuscript is not written in a "chronological" order. The author tried to keep things that way but several events clearly are out of place and Cavaness skips around. It wasn't written as a history document so trying to make it conform to one will only lead you to false conclusions. Cavaness was hauling freight for the Silver King and several other mines into the 1880's so when he said he haul freight up to 1876 he is talking about something that happened that year, not that it was the last time he ever hauled freight.
If you read Cavaness carefully you will see what that event in 1876 was and why he used that statement. Gregory, do you or Matt have Schaus's record of the early cattlemen handy in your files ?

Goldmine

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good morning Goldmine: I have copies of some of the Schaus Collection however I will have to go to the archives when I get a chance and search for the"cattleman's records." I do not know when I will get a chance to do this. Anything in particular you want me to look for in that part of the collection? Cordially,. Gregory E. Davis

 

[Goldmine]

Good morning Goldmine: I have copies of some of the Schaus Collection however I will have to go to the archives when I get a chance and search for the"cattleman's records." I do not know when I will get a chance to do this. Anything in particular you want me to look for in that part of the collection? Cordially,. Gregory E. Davis

Greg Davis,

Schaus has a lot of the very old cattlemens records in his collection. His collection and the Webb collection have almost everything on the Ariz. Cattlemens Assoc. No I don't have anything in particular I want you to look for, the question earlier was about the early brand registrations and Cavaness brand at the Cavaness ranch, and somehow I got elected to do someone elses research for them. I thought maybe you or Matt had that Cavaness registration in one of your files, havent heard from Matt yet. I thought this thread was about the Milk ranch ?

Goldmine

 

[enigma]

somehow I got elected to do someone elses research for them. I thought maybe you or Matt had that Cavaness registration in one of your files, havent heard from Matt yet. I thought this thread was about the Milk ranch ?

Goldmine

if your referring to this question i asked earlier

Goldmine, i cant find a copy of that registration, can you share a copy or do yuo have more information on it? mr roberts or mr davis, can you shed any light on the specific date that matt cavaness began ranching at the current location of the qcu?

i didn't realize that was asking you to do my research for me. it was just a question i asked and if you dont want to answer it fine, dont answer it. eventually i'll be able to investigate it on my own. i apologize for thinking this was a place to exchange information and ideas.

the reason i asked about it in the milk ranch thread is because of the statement made in the original post about cavaness founding the board house ranch around 1871. the milk ranch came later, so i was naturally curious as to when and finding reference to it somewhere. in reading the manuscript for a reference to the milk ranch it started feeling as though the boaerd house may have been built and the ranch started at a later date. the more i investigated, the more references i found to 1875-1879 time frame as being when the ranch was started. all i'm doing is trying to pin down the starting date.

 

[enigma]

someone tell me where im not interpreting the matt cavaness memoirs correctly. im not going to put an exact copy of the wording because that might be copyright problems, but here is the chain of events starting from the bottom of page 55

matt mentions that the silver king mill is running and he's hauling freight. he stops by the silver king mine and talks with aaron mason the superintendant. mason says whitlow quit hauling ore for him unless he paid more. cavaness offers to take less if he can get the contract to haul for as long as the mine runs and he wants the wood contract too.

he gets the contract and starts hauling ore and also builds a blacksmith shop, employs 7 men and has work at both the mine and mill.

matt then backtracks and tells a story of stopping by his sister in laws during one of his freighting trips and helps her and her family by giving them 2 mules to help them with their small ranch and crops. his sister's husband is mr reagan who was one of the men who discovered the silver king mine and eventually the help he gave them allowed mr reagan and some others to become the new discoverers of the silver king mine.

he ends that story and comes back to the present time after he got his shop up and running and his teams hauling ore and has men cutting wood as well as repairing the road. he says that the quality of the road is why mr whitlow wasn't hauling the ore.

he then tells the story that the superintendant needed someone to haul some timbers to help them put up a new hoist. he couldnt get anyone to do it, so matt said he would. matt tells how he got the timbers loaded and that night an old maricopa indian chief that he knew came in. they started talking and the chief asked him if he had any cattle. he said that he was going to be buying some soon. at that point the chief told him where there was a good spring of water and that it would be a good place for cattle. he marked out the superstition mountains.

after matt delivered the timbers, he told his wife that he was going to go look for that spring. he looked and found it right where the chief had said and thats where he ended up building his ranch house and buying cattle.

the story sounds pretty chronological to me with the exception of matt backtracking to tell how he helped mr reagan by giving him a couple mules after which mr reagan and others discovered the silver king mine, but he makes it clear that he's going back in time to tell that story.

the rest of the story centers around him locating the spring that would later become the site for the board house and his ranch, but all of this is happening at a time when the silver king mine is running. it was discovered for the second time by regan and others in 1875, so unless matt was confused in his dates and time, he couldn't have started his ranch or built the board house until after 1875 sometime.

am i missing something or was matt just mistaken?

oh, and i should probably mention that im not asking anyone to do any research for me. i'll be happy to do that myself when my health and time permits.

 

[Goldmine]

if your referring to this question i asked earlier



i didn't realize that was asking you to do my research for me. it was just a question i asked and if you dont want to answer it fine, dont answer it. eventually i'll be able to investigate it on my own. i apologize for thinking this was a place to exchange information and ideas.

the reason i asked about it in the milk ranch thread is because of the statement made in the original post about cavaness founding the board house ranch around 1871. the milk ranch came later, so i was naturally curious as to when and finding reference to it somewhere. in reading the manuscript for a reference to the milk ranch it started feeling as though the boaerd house may have been built and the ranch started at a later date. the more i investigated, the more references i found to 1875-1879 time frame as being when the ranch was started. all i'm doing is trying to pin down the starting date.

Do you read other peoples posts ?

Here is what I posted when you asked where the register can be found........
The records of the ranches, brands, allotments, patents etc. are found in several places, the Dorothy Webb Ariz. Cattle Growers Association collection, Richard Schaus collection and I believe but am not altogether sure the Roscoe Willson collection. I'm sure there are others Gregory or Matt could refer to.

I gave you three references. I don't know how much clearer I could make it than that. I realize you might not be able to google the exact records on the internet from your easy chair in your living room , most of the old records require some actual work that the people did to find them. So don't give me your attitude, I did what you asked. I'm not your private research facility.

And yes you are trying to put a chronology to something that was not meant and is not written chronologically. That we also must agree to disagree on.

 

[cactusjumper]

Do you read other peoples posts ?

Here is what I posted when you asked where the register can be found........
The records of the ranches, brands, allotments, patents etc. are found in several places, the Dorothy Webb Ariz. Cattle Growers Association collection, Richard Schaus collection and I believe but am not altogether sure the Roscoe Willson collection. I'm sure there are others Gregory or Matt could refer to.

I gave you three references. I don't know how much clearer I could make it than that. I realize you might not be able to google the exact records on the internet from your easy chair in your living room , most of the old records require some actual work that the people did to find them. So don't give me your attitude, I did what you asked. I'm not your private research facility.

And yes you are trying to put a chronology to something that was not meant and is not written chronologically. That we also must agree to disagree on.

Goldmine,

I seem to detect a slight amount of truculence in your own attiude. Is there some reason why you seem to be taking these, seemingly, innocent questions so personally? Are the questions somehow out of bounds or do you just have an aversion to any questions of your facts?

Perhaps I am wrong and what appears to be anger, is simply your......style. As someone has mentioned before, we are all here to share information. Questions are the normal response to such sharing, and you seem to know the answers.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[enigma]

I realize you might not be able to google the exact records on the internet from your easy chair in your living room , most of the old records require some actual work that the people did to find them. So don't give me your attitude, I did what you asked. I'm not your private research facility.

gotcha, i understand now where you'r coming from and thank you for such a respectful response.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I've been down in San Diego the past few days and haven't been keeping up with the forum and see once again the same tactics have started in again. While down there I visited with the Cavaness family and learned a few things I was unclear on and some I had not known before. The "River" brand by Matt Cavaness was the name of his ranch (the ranch which became the Quarter Circle U). Later when Matt and his wife Alice were divorced she changed the ranch to the AC ranch. After that the AC ranch was traded to Goldman brothers who sold it to George Marlow who established the JL ranch. The AC brand was the first brand on that ranch to be registered with the book of brands. Matt's River brand predated the register book and was registered with the county (Maricopa) 1872 or 1873. Also learned that cattle were put on that ranch by Cavaness before the spring and stone house were ever developed and constructed and long before the board house came along.
cavaness was , "at war" with the city of Phoenix in 1872 and as soon as his son Albert was born he moved the family out of Phoenix and onto the ranch. Albert was born in November of 1872. I was shown a letter between Cavaness and AH Peeples which I will try and post if the scan can be cleaned up good enough to make out which talks about that River ranch.

Matthew

 

[enigma]

I've been down in San Diego the past few days and haven't been keeping up with the forum and see once again the same tactics have started in again. While down there I visited with the Cavaness family and learned a few things I was unclear on and some I had not known before. The "River" brand by Matt Cavaness was the name of his ranch (the ranch which became the Quarter Circle U). Later when Matt and his wife Alice were divorced she changed the ranch to the AC ranch. After that the AC ranch was traded to Goldman brothers who sold it to George Marlow who established the JL ranch. The AC brand was the first brand on that ranch to be registered with the book of brands. Matt's River brand predated the register book and was registered with the county (Maricopa) 1872 or 1873. Also learned that cattle were put on that ranch by Cavaness before the spring and stone house were ever developed and constructed and long before the board house came along.
cavaness was , "at war" with the city of Phoenix in 1872 and as soon as his son Albert was born he moved the family out of Phoenix and onto the ranch. Albert was born in November of 1872. I was shown a letter between Cavaness and AH Peeples which I will try and post if the scan can be cleaned up good enough to make out which talks about that River ranch.

Matthew

thanks for the enlightening response mr roberts. what you said would answer a lot of the questions i had and have after reading matt's memoirs and folloowing up with other notes i have. i don't have the manuscript in front of me, but i thought at one point in the 1870-1872 range he says something about gathering large amounts of cattle in the salt river valley for someone, so that could coincide with him running cattle there in that time frame and before the board house was built.

do you agree with goldmine that the cavaness memoirs are not to be read as a history document and that it doesn't follow in a mostly chronological way? personaly ive only found minimal areas that i cant tie to historical events or newspaper or other documented accounts that fall right in line with his stories. it reads a lot like a history account of someones life to me and i have no reason to question most of the dates or times he mentions.

just out of curiosity, do you know if the typed transcript was done mostly word for word from the handwritten one by matt, or did the transcriber just take everything and rearrange it all to fit whatever storyline he wanted to put it into?

if im asking too much, please let me know. im not sure where the line is between asking questions and making other people do research for me so i don't want to cross it again and be acused in such a demeaning way. i do what i can with what i have.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

enigma,

I agree only to the point an old man wrote his remembrances late in his life and tried the best he could to get everything right. I don't know what he intended but he was educated only enough to read and write and not a scholar. Pretty much everyone agrees he wrote it for his children and grandchildren, not as a public document or book of some kind. According to the Cavaness family the memoir was finished after Mathew Cavaness was in the home at Sawtele sometime around 1928 not long before he died. Christina Morrell, his sister actually wrote down the words as her brother told them. About 20 years later a member of the family gave Joe Miller permission to type the notes and he typed them exactly as they appeared on the hand written pages. Miller kept a copy for the Arizona archives. The hand written copy is still with the family in California and the archives in Arizona have a photograph of the pages. There are mistakes in the memoir but for the most part Cavaness did a good job. Good chronology ? Yes and no, depending on which page you are reading.

Cavaness had major problems with the town of Phoenix. He owned a saloon, a blacksmith shop, a freight business and had about 500 head of cattle. The city taxed him nearly to death and he was swindled on some lots in the city he had purchased. He couldn't wait to get away. Once gone he never went back. This was 1872 just before his son Albert was born. Lots more to it but I must go over to Long Beach for now and will finish later.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Does anyone know when, where and how the Cavaness Manuscript first came to light?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

I see Mathew answered my questions while I was posting.

Here's another source of information:

http://www.asu.edu/lib/archives/azbio/bios/CAVANESS.PDF