The lost Treasure of Napoleon Bonaparte

[tintin_treasure]

Hello TT believe it or NOT, some times academics get things wrong. It you look at the map releventchair supplied you can see the line retreat that map was made originally in 1869 by the French in which I believe is more reliable than a 20 century academic writing a thesis on the problems of logisticS rather than giving an accurate depiction of where the grand army retreated?

You see on the wonderful map below...That the retreat was north of Minsk not South.

View attachment 1064525

Also there markers in Country in the countryside commemorating where the Grand Army retreated. All north of Minsk.

View attachment 1064526

Crow

thanks Crow...then that seals it. Ofcourse I dont take all acadamic publications as conclusive.Alas much errors abound.thanks for the clarification.

tintin treasure

 

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[Crow]

Hello TT As a rule of thumb after many years research of many treasures around the world I am not trustful of 20th century Authors from experience. I prefer to get to most earlist documents of the event as possible. You may or may not be amazed how much can be changed by the time you read a modern document.

I do have more documents Somewhere... oh and here another location that may be of interest along the line of retreat.....



Most historian write like if there was any sort of order to the retreat. The fact is napoleon was not the great general he made himself out to be. in fact he did the same to his men in Egypt he deserted them and left them to their fate.I do not believe the story of 80 tons of treasure.

Many historians under estimate the desperation of the Army. However that image was not helped by Napoleons propaganda which made him out to be hero in fact it was a complete disaster.By the time the grand Army got the Vilnius it was every man for himself. there was no control element of command.

I have not doubt there are small caches of treasure through out the city and the countryside stretching back to where the Grand Army began to fall apart.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Hello TT As a rule of thumb after many years research of many treasures around the world I am not trustful of 20th century Authors from experience. I prefer to get to most earlist documents of the event as possible. You may or may not be amazed how much can be changed by the time you read a modern document.

I do have more documents Somewhere... oh and here another location that may be of interest along the line of retreat.....

View attachment 1064527

Most historian write like if there was any sort of order to the retreat. The fact is napoleon was not the great general he made himself out to be. in fact he did the same to his men in Egypt he deserted them and left them to their fate.I do not believe the story of 80 tons of treasure.

Many historians under estimate the desperation of the Army. However that image was not helped by Napoleons propaganda which made him out to be hero in fact it was a complete disaster.By the time the grand Army got the Vilnius it was every man for himself. there was no control element of command.

I have not doubt there are small caches of treasure through out the city and the countryside stretching back to where the Grand Army began to fall apart.

Crow

thanks Crow...I do agree secondary and terrtiary documents should be taken with care. True 80 tons of gold story is exaggerated.I presume It is an analysis o the article writers not the diary of the inn keeper who recounted seeing some carts in his yard... What I think is ,given how emperors and leaders think,,, though in bulk the army was in disarray,a certain privileged contingent close to Napoleon might have been comparatively fed in turn to carry or ride some of the treasure..also note that once they crossed the river north of minsk,according to the article it was comparatively crossing to a no danger zone and it was at that juncture Napoloen left to paris,probably giving orders to the remaining treasure.Though mutiny was rampant,his loyalist and close contingents and generals might be the ones who made it to Vilinus. Emperors have always a close die hard loyalist contingents who in turn are taken care of in terms of food etc.So It might be fair to think certain treasure had made it until Vilnuis. Not 80 ton (80 ton maybes the estimate that left Moscow).But some treasure may be hiding in or around Vilnuis. But the Barn story is also a hot lead ,for some of the trove.

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

thanks Crow...I do agree secondary and terrtiary documents should be taken with care. True 80 tons of gold story is exaggerated.I presume It is an analysis o the article writers not the diary of the inn keeper who recounted seeing some carts in his yard... What I think is ,given how emperors and leaders think,,, though in bulk the army was in disarray,a certain privileged contingent close to Napoleon might have been comparatively fed in turn to carry or ride some of the treasure..also note that once they crossed the river north of minsk,according to the article it was comparatively crossing to a no danger zone and it was at that juncture Napoloen left to paris,probably giving orders to the remaining treasure.Though mutiny was rampant,his loyalist and close contingents and generals might be the ones who made it to Vilinus. Emperors have always a close die hard loyalist contingents who in turn are taken care of in terms of food etc.So It might be fair to think certain treasure had made it until Vilnuis. Not 80 ton (80 ton maybes the estimate that left Moscow).But some treasure may be hiding in or around Vilnuis. But the Barn story is also a hot lead ,for some of the trove.

tintin treasure

Hello TT It may be or not be in regards to the Barn? Sadly it here we have speculate a little and ask the question. Would the villagers of hamlet in summer dug through the ashes of Barn and recovered the back packs of looted treasures? Or left the site grow over as tomb?

One thing is favour there is a possabilty that one could trace the site of this ban even if destroyed in 1812 from satilite photgraphs of past markings on the ground can some times be seen from the air? However some times luck is agisnt us and a new building was built over the site.

My hope was in 1812 with so many people dying in burning barn the locals would of been too superstitious to rebuild there.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Hello TT It may be or not be in regards to the Barn? Unfortnatly it here we have speculate a lite and ask the question. Would the villagers of hamlet in summer dug through the ashes of Barn and recovered the back packs of looted treasures? Or left the site grow over as tomb?

One thing is favour there is a possabilty that one could trace the site of this ban even if destroyed in 1812 from satilite photgraphs of past markings on the ground can some times be seen from the air? However some times luck is agisnt us and a new building was built over the site.

My hope was in 1812 with so many people dying in burning barn the locals would of been too superstitious to rebuild there.

Crow

Hello Crow...It is reasonable to think the villagers may have left it because of superstition.But the problem is the retreat path in Russia and Belarus have been combed by TH hunters for decades and decades.Whether they found anything in the hamlet in question I dont know.My guess is the relatively unexplored areas are the routes in present day Lithuania(Vilnius etc) and beyond because TH hunters gave priority in the retreat route in Russia and Belarus but comparatively little was found.

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Hello TT Not many treasure hunters like to operate out of there own turf ie Own Country. there is few in world but they my friend are an exception to the rule a rare breed of hardcore. Over two hundred years of history has impeded many of them and in the last decade perhaps a few. But they may not have known about the barn story as it was either told in French or English not In Russian even though I could imagine their own stories of it? But most local knowledge of it would of been lost by two worlds wars that devastated the region.I can imagine many detectorist today But I doubt many would be purposely looking for the site.

As for areas east of Vilnius no doubt die hard soldiers and officers still carrying gold dumped or hid some. Many would of been exhausted to do much. You have to remember the many of the army was being destroyed by Typhus also. Perhaps the old fortress as by the illustration posted before show the old fortress was largely derelict by 1812.

And the problem we have today is Vilnius is going city with suburbs expanding... Modern urban development put and to some search areas. If anything was in Churches it most likely have been later looted by the Nazis or the Soviets.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Hello TT Not many treasure hunters like to operate out of there own turf ie Own Country. there is few in world but they my friend are an exception to the rule a rare breed of hardcore. Over two hundred years of history has impeded many of them and in the last decade perhaps a few. But they may not have known about the barn story as it was either told in French or English not In Russian even though I could imagine their own stories of it? But most local knowledge of it would of been lost by two worlds wars that devastated the region.I can imagine many detectorist today But I doubt many would be purposely looking for the site.

As for areas east of Vilnius no doubt die hard soldiers and officers still carrying gold dumped or hid some. Many would of been exhausted to do much. You have to remember the many of the army was being destroyed by Typhus also. Perhaps the old fortress as by the illustration posted before show the old fortress was largely derelict by 1812.

And the problem we have today is Vilnius is going city with suburbs expanding... Modern urban development put and to some search areas. If anything was in Churches it most likely have been later looted by the Nazis or the Soviets.

Crow

thanks Crow...Alas after 200 years things have changed the landscapes ...Maybe possible secret underground tunnels of the fortress and churches in Vilnuis could be checked...the hamlet barn story in Belarus is worth checking as the area may not change dramatically as cities like Vilnius.

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

exactly...


Crow

 

[Crow]

TT Ya probably know the stories of many tunnels under Vilnius?

Vilnius has much more vaults than anybody can imagine. Some of the underground galleries and tunnels make entire labyrinths. Basements were set underground for the reasons of war – mainly for the prisoners, military ammunition was put there, food resources kept – it was also a place for hiding from the enemies. Of course, most of them were used for burying. Municipal government used to build not only the entire arsenals, but also particular prisons where the prisoners – townspeople were kept. Vaults were of a big importance during the Russian occupation in Lithuania – it was a place for secret organizations to establish. They kept Lithuanian word, they hid Lithuanian books there.

one such story is the Ghost in the Jacobin cellars

Large labyrinth-like cellars are there under the church of the Holy Spirit and the monastery. In 1863, the Cruel Murovjov-Korik came to Vilnius and ordered the watch of those cellars for a reason not known. It was done independent of the fact that basements located only rotten coffins with bones of people. Guardians were put to watch the doors all day long. One day, the city heard of news – a ghost haunted in the basement of the Jacobin church. As ever in such cases, the news with various accompaniments and elaborations spread among the townspeople. The cause of this sensation was found only later.

It seems that one of the Jacobin church cellars has a hole of an oblong form. The day light or the light from street lanterns breaks through the gap and falls on the front wall. The shadow makes a form of a person, similar to a spirit. The
spirit seems like moving, especially at night when wind is swinging the street lamp. We must observe that all Vilnius prisons were chock-full of supposed prisoners during the Russian occupation and Jacobin, Friar, Bernardine and other monasteries were converted into prisons when no space was left in other places. It is true to say that the Jacobin monastery was exceptional – it was the most savage prison with a room for inquisition commission. Material from the book Vilniaus legendos, 1998

The cache of defensive wall

The defensive devise in the hill of the Tower was proclaimed diversely in the 19th c. – it was a fortress, tower with underground basements, cache or barbican. More interest for the catacombs was expressed in the beginning of 20th century.
Some people thought the remnants belong to Vilnius Kreivoji Castle (hooked) walls, built in 12th-14th century. Others stated that the tower was built together with the catacombs in 15th-16th centuries or even 17th century and they suppose it was a warehouse for the townspeople ammunition. City men spread talks that Tower hill basements lead to Vilnius Castle, and from there – to Trakai Castle. In 1856, the historian T.Narbutas wrote in his personal works: „We remember the times when the hole to the catacombs, although mured up a couple of times, was knocked down by obscure hands”. It is also told that water in the underground was red from the battles with the Crusaders who attacked the hill many times.
Now the tower complex is comprised of three parts: underground premises for the gunnery, overground tower and the connecting corridor-tunnel. These elements surround the hill and together with the half-bended façade for gunnery, form an extraordinary silhouette of the Tower hill. It is well seen from Vilnius Valley in the north and from the Gediminas Castle.

The underground caves of Cathedral

Vilnius Cathedral is standing on the remnants of Temple for God of Thunder, former foundations of the fi replace. Earlier, the temple of the capital city had extremely deep underground, caves, secret entrances and chapels forgotten long ago.
In 1931, the city experienced flood which painfully aff ected the foundations, it invaded the chapels, washed coffi ns of the kings. Vilnius townsmen understood the danger to the sanctuary and saw its decay in their eyes. The foundations of Cathedral started sinking and their dangerous imparity comprised.

After the flood, underground resembled a huge lake with niches. Firefighters of the city started rescuing works with the water pumps. In places where water was pumped out – openings appeared. When the remaining waters were eliminated and the entrance to the undergrounds was unclosed – the engineers, architects and geologist of Vilnius city soon came in to observe the situation. They confi rmed that Cathedral is barely standing on the rotten wooden poles. Specialists claimed about the inevitable collapse of the building. After examination of the building structure, it came to light that long ago the temple was built on a low waterlogged mud base and water streams percolated from it. At that time, vertical logs and posts were piled into the ground to firm the foundation of the temple and builders believed such piles will maintain Cathedral for ages. T

hey thought that no air shall protrude to the posts, water-saturated oak posts shall get black, harden and provide steadfast mass to the foundations. However, temple constructors were wrong. In the course of time, underground posts were aff ected by air, moisture and must. Posts started getting rotten, oaken posts decayed. Moreover, a spring started running in the foundations of the Cathedral. Later on, it burst into the brook and got a name of Kačerga. Theretofore it trickled above the undergrounds and was known as the stream of Vingra which ran into the streamlet by the name Vilnelė. But later water infiltrated under the base, under the posts, which were very short, only one and a half metres long at some places. In other words, the brook started destroying the foundation.

Findings After the flood, a decision was made to change the existing foundations with ferroconcrete, stronger. Apropos, city specialists resolved to explore the foundations of Cathedral in more detail and check the historical knowledge. Excavation started.In September, 1931, three coffins of kings were found besides the great altar of Cathedral – they belonged to Aleksandras Jogailaitis (1492-1506) and both wives of the King Žygimantas Augustas: Queen Elizabeth the Austrian and Barbora Radvilaitė. It was stated that the crypt was unclosed from the beginning of 17th century because of an attentive covering. The crypt of the kings was found during the investigation of fundamental plan of basilica, therefore the biggest part of the fl oor is dug down.

An experienced eye of the architect Pekša noticed extraordinary stonework. It meant that arches can be found under the stone works, or maybe caves, vaults or basements. Researchers already wanted to load the works with soil, but curiosity of the architect prevented it. A spade was stroke into the arch and an echo greeted – workers found the place for burying.The King Aleksandras had a luxurious golden crown dated back to the beginning of the 15th century. More precisely – it was a burying crown with clear features of the 16th century beginning. The Queen Elizabeth was buried witha golden chain, burying crown and silver plate with a long note in Latin, probably signifying the titles and merits of the queen. Best preserved was the coffi n of the Queen Barbora Radvilaitė – it was similar to the sarcophagus. The same plate with Polish, Lithuanian and Radvila family coats of arms, Latin characters and analogous data about the Queen was found with her too.

Much history My friend is hidden out of sight underground. However one must sort of WW1 , WW2 ans Cold War Tunnel from the ancient to find ant relic of Napoleons treasure.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

thanks Crow...that is a rich info.It sure is an ancient city worth considering not only for Napoloeoan but earlier treasures as well.I read somewhere that the so called invasion by the Teutonic Knights,in 14th cntury in the areas of Kaunas and most probably Vilnius could also be a motivation for the people and the church to bury/hide thier treasures.But much happened in Nazi time and Soviet time.One has to sift through the layers of history and cement.
Speaking of Napoleon ,I am always amazed by the story that after few months of his first exile in the island of Elba where he had some sovereignty on the island,he managed to return to France and at the shores he gave sign for his followers to remain on the boat and walked alone and gave an impressive speech to the soldiers on the watch towers who shouted ''Viva la Emperor'' and marched towards paris with him for his 3 months campaigns...It was also that period in history that Alexander Dumas later used for his 'Count of Monte Cristo' story book. Of-course the treasure of Montre Cristo legend remains until today.

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Hello TT

Another factor to consider is that any treasures buried under such duress in those conditions of dysentery and typhus, while constantly being attacked by villagers and Cossacks would of made deep excavation very hard. Another factor in some areas the ground would of been frozen as the Russian winter began to bite...

Crow

 

[Crow]

However I had time in that part of the world a ground penetrating radar might uncover some interesting relics.

Crow.

 

[Crow]

OH I also forgot hunting down old maps of hamlet in regards to the village if any building or barns pre-1812 to post 1812 maps.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

OH I also forgot hunting down old maps of hamlet in regards to the village if any building or barns pre-1812 to post 1812 maps.

Crow

Thanks Crow,,,,most of those treasure hides with shallow digs(because of frost,weakness of solders etc ) may have been recovered b the locals. But all the same the Hamlet is a lead,,,and who knows one of those secret tunnels in Vilnuis may still hide something.

tintin treeasure

 

[Crow]

Hello TT It would not hurts searching a lake near Vilnius for treasure either.....



Nor old building in Vilnius in 1812 that are around today. Old maps of the town center might be of help pinpointing where building was in 1812.



Also I would not discount around those old building west of Smolensk either...



Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Hello TT It would not hurts searching a lake near Vilnius for treasure either.....

View attachment 1064951

Nor old building in Vilnius in 1812 that are around today. Old maps of the town center might be of help pinpointing where building was in 1812.

View attachment 1064949

Also I would not discount around those old building west of Smolensk either...

View attachment 1064950

Crow

Thanks Crow...you are right.It seems logical to quickly dump the trove into a lake as in many Treasure stories around the world. But why the polish?Was Vilnuis under Polish rule in the past?

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Hello TT I think you should be informed to answer that question?

Its was at one time for a while a Polish city in its long long history of occupation. The Germans, The Russians,The Soviets among others through it long long history.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Hello TT I think you should be informed to answer that question?

Its was at one time for a while a Polish city in its long long history of occupation. The Germans, The Russians,The Soviets among others through it long long history.

Crow

thanks Crow..When you have someone spoon feeding you,you get lazy to check such things

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

So TT

If it is any consolation you can now say now know more about the fate of Napoleons treasure than when you first posted?

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

So TT

If it is any consolation you can now say now know more about the fate of Napoleons treasure than when you first posted?

Crow

Hello Crow...Definitely..we exchanged a lot of debates and ideas,and you produced very amazing facts, so I would say we have potential hot spots than general ideas. Prior to the debates I had the general idea of in and around Vilnuis as potential candidate..But now that has been sharpened and focused,thanks to you.

tintin treasure