The Lost Dutchmans name was...Jacob Waltz, Jacob Ludy, Youngblood, Jacobs, VonWalzer

[hooch]

No Oro, I want you to show me the proof to back up the claims of waltz being a successful prospector that you have made. That is all, really simple actually. Show me the receipts or logged data from the assayers office.

 

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[sdcfia]

No Oro, I want you to show me the proof to back up the claims of waltz being a successful prospector that you have made. That is all, really simple actually. Show me the receipts or logged data from the assayers office.

Other than the apparent fact that a Jacob Waltz co-signed, with others, location papers on some mining claims in AZ, there is no indication that he had any prowess at all as a prospector - the one who discovered the mineral deposits. It is alleged that he worked as a laborer and/or miner in several CA and AZ mining camps for several years. We can assume that Waltz was active and available in the camps, knew people, knew mining, and was willing to help do the work necessary at the time to validate new claims. However, Waltz's name on mining location papers, along with others, only establishes that he was a partner in the claims - it doesn't mean that he was the discoverer of mineral on them. Based on the evidence then, we can probably assume he was a reliable miner, but we have no evidence that he was a prospector, other than he undoubtedly knew what good ore looked like.

 

[cactusjumper]

No Oro, I want you to show me the proof to back up the claims of waltz being a successful prospector that you have made. That is all, really simple actually. Show me the receipts or logged data from the assayers office.

hooch,

Many people who post here and on other sites establish their credentials by what they post. We all choose what to believe based on our own knowledge of the subjects. For me, not knowing $#!t about rocks or mining, I tend to have faith in those I know have experience in the fields. When Roy speaks, I listen. I know his research habits and would seldom question his conclusions......but not always. I would need to be pretty sure of the facts before voicing another opinion.

It should be obvious to you by now, that the evidence you seek probably does not exist. For me, knowing the history of the area and era, it's no surprise that such documentation does not exist. Being a stickler for documentation, myself, I can appreciate your desire to see some receipts from that time. Should someone actually produce them, considering such things, they will likely be forgeries.

It took Constance Altshuler only a cursory glance at the $7,000 draft made out to Jacob Waltz to declare it a forgery. It is not a bad thing to have doubts about LDM/Jacob Waltz documents. Most of the rest of us took a little longer.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

No Oro, I want you to show me the proof to back up the claims of waltz being a successful prospector that you have made. That is all, really simple actually. Show me the receipts or logged data from the assayers office.

First, thanks Joe for the kind words, and once again I can say the exact same thing about you.

Hooch, I hold that Waltz was a successful prospector, based on the few records we have. He was certainly in the area (Bradshaws) when the claims with his name on the documents were recorded, so I see no reason to suppose that he was some kind of "straw" prospector, that had nothing to do with the finding and locating of the mines. If you have some evidence otherwise, please share it.

We have been over this before, and you just keep repeating the same questions. There are no records of Waltz selling ore in public circulation today. Does that satisfy you? What there is, are reports, from people that knew him. Actions speak louder than words. Sims Ely interviewed Julia Thomas and Reiney Petrasch, and they claimed that Waltz had helped Julia save her business by selling some of his gold ore. Dick Holmes ended up with a candle box of very rich gold ore from Waltz after his death. This ore was assayed by Dick Porterie in Phoenix and came back with a value of $110,000 in gold per ton, with gold at the then current price of $20.67, plus a small amount of silver which if memory serves was 2 ounces per ton, so rather a high gold to silver ratio. John D. Mitchell interviewed several people that knew Waltz, including one of the Postons, a famous Arizona pioneer. He was told that they witnessed Waltz selling a mule load of ore for $800 cash in Tucson, and attempted to trail Waltz unsuccessfully.

Other old timers that claimed they knew Waltz were interviewed in the Depression years, and this was recorded in the "Pioneer Interviews" and they reported Waltz seen selling small amounts of gold in a number of different places for cash or in payment for food and other items. In MY OPINION (you are welcome to your own) all of this put together, especially considering that Waltz is named among the discoverers on the original location documents for several good gold mines in the Bradshaws, indicates that Jacob Waltz was a successful prospector. You may have a different standard.

Actions speak louder than words - virtually all those who knew Jacob Waltz in his last years, went looking for his mine. Even the carpenter that built a drywasher for him, went looking. What does that tell you?

How many records do you suppose exist for most successful prospectors of the past? If you do some research you will find that even some of the most famous, have few actual records of assays, ore sales receipts etc today. That kind of record is especially hard to find for a famous lost mine because we are not the first treasure hunters to look, and anything found by earlier treasure hunters would have been scooped up and kept in private possession. In fact I would bet that the debated Wells Fargo receipts of Waltz, found by the Petrasches, are in private possession today and are NOT going to be made public to satisfy anyone.

One other thing but your point about receipts and/or logged data on gold/ore sold, is not really that good of a type of evidence if you think about it. The last of Waltz's gold was sold to a jeweler in Phoenix. Jewelers often bought gold ore in the pioneer days, and records or receipts of the jewelers selling that ore would certainly not prove that the jewelers were successful prospectors. Dick Holmes sold Waltz's ore, does that mean Dick Holmes was a successful prospector, even though he never could find Waltz's mine even after spending his life searching for it?

Now you are certainly free and welcome to your opinions, and if you disagree with what I have stated, good for you - stay home, don't bother to go looking for the lost Dutchman mine, and no one will be in the least bothered by your absence from the Superstition mountains. This is after all the treasure LEGENDS section of the forum, not the records and archives of known mines. Believe or disbelieve what you like, I am done spending time trying to convince you of anything.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

ROY DECKER WITH NO-SOCK COFFEE:



Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

ROY DECKER WITH NO-SOCK COFFEE:


Joe Ribaudo

EGADS Joe who is that goofy-looking old goat? I have seen him peeking at me in my mirror, so got rid of the mirrors, which I highly recommend for anyone that starts seeing similar things!

Just for anyone reading our discussion, so you don't get the wrong idea - Hooch is a straight shooter, one of the good guys, and this is why I have bothered to try to sway his opinion at all. If he was not, I would not have bothered, I sure don't have time to waste trying to convince people that are only looking for an argument or want YOU to do their research for them. I feel a little bad that I can not provide the kind(s) of proof he wants to see, like receipts for gold sold etc. MANY other Dutch hunters have been looking for these documents for many years, and while I am convinced that they did exist at one time, I sure can not prove it.

Everyone has a different level of what it takes to convince us of anything. Clearly the evidence of the LDM is scant, and not enough for some people, maybe most people. That scant evidence however is not NOTHING either. If the scant evidence is not enough for you, great, you won't have to waste any time or effort or money on looking for the lost mine. On the other hand if you are convinced there is a mine, good luck because you are going to need it, many thousands have already hunted for this famous lost mine without finding it.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. And hope you DON'T see something like that photo Joe just posted looking at you from a mirror!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

PS this photo of the infamous match-box, is enough evidence for me. The gold ore that matchbox was made from came from a gold mine, and I would sure love to find that mine. If it is not enough for you, great you will be free to pursue other activities.

 

[Oroblanco]

Amigo'sIf you were the dutchman and were in the bradshaws,why would you not have been at rich hill, this makes no sense, rich hill at the time was the best place to be if you were hunting for gold.np

You already know the answer to that question NP - for in any gold rush, only those first on the spot are lucky enough to get a claim. If Waltz were not among the first to arrive at Rich Hill, his only option to make money THERE would have been to work for another miner, and for wages that would certainly not make him wealthy. Besides, there is a difference between a prospector and a miner, one loves the search, the other loves the extraction and financial rewards, not the search so much. We could as well ask why Waltz ever left California, where all the big and famous gold strikes started in '49.

 

[coazon de oro]

Jacob Waltz had no intentions of filing a claim, so he had no need to assay the ore. He also didn't need an assayer to tell him there was gold in that ore.

The fact that his other claims were done in a partnership may indicate that he really was not a citizen of the U.S.

Homar

 

[azdave35]

EGADS Joe who is that goofy-looking old goat? I have seen him peeking at me in my mirror, so got rid of the mirrors, which I highly recommend for anyone that starts seeing similar things!

Just for anyone reading our discussion, so you don't get the wrong idea - Hooch is a straight shooter, one of the good guys, and this is why I have bothered to try to sway his opinion at all. If he was not, I would not have bothered, I sure don't have time to waste trying to convince people that are only looking for an argument or want YOU to do their research for them. I feel a little bad that I can not provide the kind(s) of proof he wants to see, like receipts for gold sold etc. MANY other Dutch hunters have been looking for these documents for many years, and while I am convinced that they did exist at one time, I sure can not prove it.

Everyone has a different level of what it takes to convince us of anything. Clearly the evidence of the LDM is scant, and not enough for some people, maybe most people. That scant evidence however is not NOTHING either. If the scant evidence is not enough for you, great, you won't have to waste any time or effort or money on looking for the lost mine. On the other hand if you are convinced there is a mine, good luck because you are going to need it, many thousands have already hunted for this famous lost mine without finding it.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. And hope you DON'T see something like that photo Joe just posted looking at you from a mirror!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

PS this photo of the infamous match-box, is enough evidence for me. The gold ore that matchbox was made from came from a gold mine, and I would sure love to find that mine. If it is not enough for you, great you will be free to pursue other activities.
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dont feel bad roy...nobody else has ever been able to produce the kind of tangible proof that hooch wants..probably because it isnt there...130 years ago most people didn't ask for a receipt when they sold gold...the only thing we know for sure is there was a dutchman.no matter what anyone says... there is plenty of proof of his existence...we also know he had gold in his house when he died and we know almost for certain who got it...thats about all anyone can prove

 

[somehiker]

Thomas Glover touched on some of these points during his presentation at the last Rendezvous.
In that Waltz had not fared well with his filing and partnering efforts in the Bradshaws. That he had been outmaneuvered (screwed) by his partners in one case, and by the territorial government/mining authorities in another, as a result of a mistake he made in his filing of the necessary paperwork.
I believe this information, in greater detail, is included in his newest book....along with Thomas's theories and evidence pertaining to some of the confusion surrounding the many clues to the LDM.....in that many of the clues based on recollections of those who had heard Waltz's stories over the years, actually applied to his other mines and prospecting adventures, rather than his last mine.... about which he was much more secretive....having learned his lessons well .

Regards:SH.

 

[hooch]

Certainly there would be some sort of records from gold sales if it truly was the "richest mine in the world" or "enough to make millionaires of xxxx amount of men." Come on, this place seems to be turning into an episode of Oak Island.

 

[azdave35]

Certainly there would be some sort of records from gold sales if it truly was the "richest mine in the world" or "enough to make millionaires of xxxx amount of men." Come on, this place seems to be turning into an episode of Oak Island.

lol...one thing for sure..the stories about the dutchman cashing in $250,000 worth of gold is pure b.s....i've never seen any proof of this..also the story of him sending his sister in germany a fortune is b.s.,,,

 

[somehiker]

Even though I know I'm wasting my own time in offering this hooch, I would suggest that the majority of those who have done extensive research into Waltz and his mine have found enough to convince themselves that he had indeed discovered and worked a rich gold mine somewhere within the mountains east of present day Phoenix. Collectively, they have amassed enough evidence about Waltz and his history, habits, comings and goings, and financial situation during this time to support their convictions. Even in this day and age many financial and trade transactions go unrecorded for various reasons, or even if recorded, as in the case of a sales receipt, do not include the name of the customer and/or salesperson. Of those that were recorded back then, I doubt that even 30% would remain. Perhaps if you were to apply your own research skills to the questions you have asked, perhaps you will succeed where others have failed in their search for such a document.

 

[somehiker]

lol...one thing for sure..the stories about the dutchman cashing in $250,000 worth of gold is pure b.s....i've never seen any proof of this..also the story of him sending his sister in germany a fortune is b.s.,,,

Hafta agree with you on that Dave.
And I believe the two stories are actually from one based on the same kind of "evidence" as was shared with Helen Corbin as I recall.
$ 250,000 worth was literally a ton of gold back then, and just don't fit the history as we do know of it so far.

 

[nobodie]

To believe or not to believe, is that really the question. To me it was the hunt, to look over the next ridge or climbe to the top of a hill to see what's on the other side. To pan dirt even from an ant hill and accidentally slide into a cacti, to sit on a flat rock that had a rattle snake under it. Even if I don't find the caches, it is the adventure of going out into the wilderness and searching for what ever you're looking for. And maybe go where no man has ever walked before. Until they go out there them self's, the nonbelievers will never understand or believe. I would never give up the memories.

 

[azdave35]

Hafta agree with you on that Dave.
And I believe the two stories are actually from one based on the same kind of "evidence" as was shared with Helen Corbin as I recall.
$ 250,000 worth was literally a ton of gold back then, and just don't fit the history as we do know of it so far.

lol....$250,000 would be about equal to 25 million today...with that kind of money he could bought the entire valley if not the state of arizona

 

[somehiker]

Yep....and coulda hired the Baron as a butler

 

[Loke]

People seem to regard and disregard whatever suits their own agenda or conviction. Do yall not think as stories are told and retold - they are embellished upon? Why getting hung up in "it would make a millionaire out of 20 men"? Can we not just agree that there might be a fairly rich (ok, everything is relative) goldmine somewhere in the Superstitions? It certainly doesn't have to be megarich for _me_ to try looking for it - heck, I'd be over the moon if I could find/extract what was under his (Jakob's) bed!

 

[azdave35]

People seem to regard and disregard whatever suits their own agenda or conviction. Do yall not think as stories are told and retold - they are embellished upon? Why getting hung up in "it would make a millionaire out of 20 men"? Can we not just agree that there might be a fairly rich (ok, everything is relative) goldmine somewhere in the Superstitions? It certainly doesn't have to be megarich for _me_ to try looking for it - heck, I'd be over the moon if I could find/extract what was under his (Jakob's) bed!

i dont think you'd be too far off base if you said there are a few fairly rich mines in the supers

 

[audigger53]

I know of 3 that could be confused. Waltz, Waltzr, and Waggoner.
Waltzr used to ride the Stage out to about Silly Mountain and got rock hunting.
Waggoner would go from Superior by stage and get off and go into the mountains there and walk out with gold.