The Lost Dutchman Lies

[lgadbois]

It seems to be human nature, that we take everything we know and stir it together. This is true when it comes to the topic of "The Lost Dutchman's Mine." What do we really know? The entire legend of Jacob Waltz circulates around an old prospector that died with some rich ore in a box under his bed. Here are some good questions that may never be resolved:

1. Did Waltz have a mine, or did he find a cache of high grade ore?
2. Did Waltz's ore come from the Superstition Mountains?
3. Did the Peralta family have mines in the Superstition Mountains?
4. Was Dick Holmes present at Waltz's death?
5. Why would Waltz give directions to "his mine" to Holmes, who was a person he disliked?
6. Where is the proof that Waltz sold large quantities of ore to Wells Fargo?
7. Why do Maps to the LDM lead to locations all over the Superstitions?
8. What proof is there that any jewelry grade ore has ever been found in the Superstitions?
9. Was the LDM legend a creation of the Don's to promote locat commerce, as stated in "The Lost Dutchman Lies"?
10 Was the mine that Danny Adams found the source of Waltz's ore?
11. Did Ettore "Ted" DeGrazia create the Stone Maps?
12. To what do the Stone Maps lead?
13. Was there any Jesuit caches made in the Superstitions?
14. Was there a Jesuit cache recovery made in 1943 just above "Casa Caverna"? What was in the cache?
15. Was there more than one gold bar found by Harry LaFrance?
16. Was high grade gold ore discovered at "the pit mine"?
17. Did Charles Kenworthy really take $13.2 million out of a pit mine on top of Bluff Springs Mountain?
18. If the Peraltas were leaving the area when massacred, were their mules carrying rich ore? (Why carry ore when gold is more compact?)
19. Are there really 18 DeGrazia paintings stored in a cave somewhere in the Superstitions?
20. Will the LDM legend continue to be the cause of death for the seekers of treasure in the Superstitions?

Chances are that these questions and many others will never be answered. Most of the old timers on the LDM forum seem to have arrived at some of the same conclusions as Dan has stated in his book. I believe the legend will grow as men have the fantasy of the fame and fortune that will be theirs when they find the Lost Dutchman's Mine!

 

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[pippinwhitepaws]

I think the biggest lie is that I don't know what I am talking about...lol...

while many of the people here don't know me...or won't admit it...you probably walked past me or my truck when entering the mountains...
truth...don't know much about the Dutchman...but quite a bit about those mountains...

 

[markmar]

lgadbois

From this point everything I will write is not joke . I bored to play anymore . You must to keep records .

1. Did Waltz have a mine, or did he find a cache of high grade ore?
3. Did the Peralta family have mines in the Superstition Mountains?
11. Did Ettore "Ted" DeGrazia create the Stone Maps?
12. To what do the Stone Maps lead?

Waltz did have a mine . Is the Apache mine in Bluff Spring Mountain .
The Peralta family did have 5 mines . Are on the horse map , and the sixth is Caverna Aurum in the Latin heart which is a gold cache .
The stone maps have created by Peralta family . DeGrazia knew about the one of these mines ( the Apache mine in Bluff Spring Mountain ) , and this is the middle of the three dots in the Horse map . To help you more , the right horse's ear of the Horse map is the Hieroglyphic Canyon .



The stone trail map leads to a HILL ( all the " lugares " are hills and tops of mountains ) . This HILL is in a high location and from the top of this HILL you can recognize the Perfil map to the South . The Perfil map show the Apache mine . The three X in the stone trail map are the three continuous dots in the Horse map . This HILL is the centre of the Latin heart which is smaller ( 1:10 than stone trail heart ) and is in the middle of the stone trail heart .
I post a picture from GE with the Latin heart . The Latin heart must be reversed , because the break of the stone trail heart must to match with the Latin heart in the same dimension .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Fascinating Markmar. Incidentally "Lugares" means "Places". Keep posting my friend.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[lgadbois]

lgadbois

From this point everything I will write is not joke . I bored to play anymore . You must to keep records .



Waltz did have a mine . Is the Apache mine in Bluff Spring Mountain .
The Peralta family did have 5 mines . Are on the horse map , and the sixth is Caverna Aurum in the Latin heart which is a cache warehouse .
The stone maps have created by Peralta family . DeGrazia knew about the one of these mines ( the Apache mine in Bluff Spring Mountain ) , and this is the middle of the three dots in the Horse map . To help you more , the right horse's ear of the Horse map is the Hieroglyphic Canyon .

View attachment 827439

The stone trail map leads to a HILL ( all the " lugares " are hills and tops of mountains ) . This HILL is in a high location and from the top of this HILL you can recognize the Perfil map to the South . The Perfil map show the Apache mine . The three X in the stone trail map are the three continuous dots in the Horse map . This HILL is the centre of the Latin heart which is smaller ( 1:10 than stone trail heart ) and is in the middle of the stone trail heart .
I post a picture from GE with the Latin heart . The Latin heart must be reversed , because the break of the stone trail heart must to match with the Latin heart in the same dimension .

View attachment 827405

Marius, you have some interesting thoughts. Your ideas that the Latin Heart Map must be reversed is vague. There are two sides to the Latin Heart. Reverse both sides? Reverse the Perfil Map? I was able to find both locations when comparing topo maps with LDM maps. Here are pictures of the Latin Heart:

 

[markmar]

Marius, you have some interesting thoughts. Your ideas that the Latin Heart Map must be reversed is vague. There are two sides to the Latin Heart. Reverse both sides? Reverse the Perfil Map? I was able to find both locations when comparing topo maps with LDM maps. Here are pictures of the Latin Heart:

I would say , the stone trail heart reversed must match with the latin heart reversed .
If you look to the latin heart on the side with the words , don't match with the picture . The latin heart on the other side with the numbers . match with the picture , but if you want to understand the meanings put the latin heart with the words , reversed .
Any arrow in the maps means " reverse " . In the trail map the arrow shows the heart , and that means how the heart must be reversed to can recognize the location .
The Perfil map has an arrow and below are written how to change the directions .
To decrypt a map is not easy , but if you know some tips and tricks , is easy , but no complete . Any map has a level of difficulty .

You wrote " I was able to find both locations when comparing topo maps with LDM maps "

What maps you believe are to LDM ? In a topo map can't recognize detailed landmarks . You can recognize only shapes , and heart shapes are a lot in Superstition area .
From the top of the HILL you can see this view . Seems familiar ?



Marius

 

[lgadbois]

I would say , the stone trail heart reversed must match with the latin heart reversed .

I have compared the stone trail heart with the Latin Heart, straight up and reversed, and I don't find good correlations between the two of them. I think the Latin Heart describes a small area. The reverse side gives surveyed elevations of the area that is shown.

If you look to the latin heart on the side with the words , don't match with the picture . The latin heart on the other side with the numbers . match with the picture , but if you want to understand the meanings put the latin heart with the words , reversed .

The numbers on the back of the Latin Heart appear to match the locations directly below the locations on the front side. Yes, if you flip over to the numbers, they appear to be reversed because they are directly below the word on the top side.

Any arrow in the maps means " reverse " . In the trail map the arrow shows the heart , and that means how the heart must be reversed to can recognize the location .

There is no arrow on the Latin Heart. The Stone Trail Map arrow ends in a triangle pointing at a mine (or destination location.) Since the Latin Heart asks to "observe the triangle", it is my theory that the Latin Heart is the detail map for the area within the triangle on the Stone Trail Map Heart. I do not believe it is necessary to flip the Stone Trail Heart. The end of the trail on the Trail Heart matches that of the monumented trail. The Stone Heart Trail appears to end at the North end of Bluff Springs Mountain.

The Perfil map has an arrow and below are written how to change the directions .

I think that Dan Adams properly decoded the Perfil Map. He wrote in the book that he believes this mine is the so called "LDM."

To decrypt a map is not easy , but if you know some tips and tricks , is easy , but no complete . Any map has a level of difficulty .

You wrote " I was able to find both locations when comparing topo maps with LDM maps "

What maps you believe are to LDM ? In a topo map can't recognize detailed landmarks . You can recognize only shapes , and heart shapes are a lot in Superstition area .

Yes, there are heart shapes all over the Superstition Mountains. Google Earth is now good enough to view something the size of an automobile. Many of the topo maps show known caves, prospects, and terrain for identifying land marks.

From the top of the HILL you can see this view . Seems familiar ?

View attachment 827899

Without scanning the area with Google Earth, I wouldn't know if that was Weaver's Needle or some other landmark.
Marius

Here is a copy of the translated Latin Heart Map:

 

[markmar]

lgadbois

I have compared the stone trail heart with the Latin Heart, straight up and reversed, and I don't find good correlations between the two of them. I think the Latin Heart describes a small area. The reverse side gives surveyed elevations of the area that is shown.

Not between the hearts , but in relation with the picture .

There is no arrow on the Latin Heart. The Stone Trail Map arrow ends in a triangle pointing at a mine (or destination location.) Since the Latin Heart asks to "observe the triangle", it is my theory that the Latin Heart is the detail map for the area within the triangle on the Stone Trail Map Heart. I do not believe it is necessary to flip the Stone Trail Heart. The end of the trail on the Trail Heart matches that of the monumented trail. The Stone Heart Trail appears to end at the North end of Bluff Springs Mountain

Yes , hasn't a arrow . But don't show you what side is the front . The side with the numbers match with the picture and must consider how is the front side . Put the Latin heart with the front side up on the picture , and read it like it was transparent .
Any arrow in the maps , means " reverse " . If the arrow is in the bottom of the map , must to reverse all the map , but if is close to anything removable , this thing must be reversed in a specific time . In the most cases , the authors use a landmark shape to draw a symbol , and for this the symbol sometimes don't show the target . The arrows which show directions , are simple arrows like in the bottom of the stone trail . The others , like warriors arrows or maded with triangles , means " reverse " .
As I wrote , the stone trail ends to a HILL . From the top of this HILL you can recognize the Perfil map reversed . To help you more , the X infront of the arrow ( triangle ) in the stone trail map , is in the Black Mountain .

Without scanning the area with Google Earth, I wouldn't know if that was Weaver's Needle or some other landmark.

To post a picture means a fact . And a fact , in a protected land and with unfairness laws , is a foolish act . As I wrote in the past , I don't keep records . Are all in my mind .
You can see here a " close to real " Perfil map http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ZIP=3036 . This point ( Geronimo Head ) is just out off the stone trail heart .

Marius

 

[lgadbois]

As with many of the other threads, we have drifted off the topic of Adam's book, the mine he located, the items that were found in the nearby corral, and the theory he proposed that the LDM has been a marketing tool for the Don's and the promotion of commerce by Phoenix. The mine he located is not on Bluff Springs Mountain.

Marius, you have done some interesting research, but the opinions you have posted are theories that are not supported by some of the others that are interested in the LDM. From your postings you appear to believe:
1. The Stone Maps were created by the Peraltas
2. The "Apache Mine" on Bluff Springs Mountain is the "LDM"
3. The Stone Maps lead to a viewpoint North of BSM where the terrain looks similar to the Perfil Map
4. You think that the DeGrazia paintings are hidden somewhere near the "Apache Mine"

I don't think we know who created the Stone Maps. There is a good possibility that they were made less than 100 years ago. If so, why were they created? Recent information discussed on the forums suggests that the stones were made by a headstone cutter, perhaps during the 1930s.

Bluff Springs Mountain continues to be the most searched area. Did Kenworthy really mine or recover $13 million in gold out of the hole he opened and covered in 1983? I don't think so. Does anyone have a sample of his ore?

The Perfil Mapa does not compare well with the view looking South toward the North end of Bluff Springs Mountain. There are many other places that are a much better match which include the site that Adams located, and also LaBarge Upper Box. Other possible matches are sites in Peters Canyon and on Tortilla Mountain.

If DeGrazia intended for someone to find a cache of 18 paintings, I would think that he would have more direct about presenting the enigma. Being the artist he was, he may have intended that the legend of the hidden paintings be a part of his legacy.

There appears to be over 100 maps leading to mines or riches in the Superstition Mountains. Most if not all of the maps were created by people that did not have primary knowledge. I don't know why the Peraltas would have carved stone maps and then buried them at Queen Creek. The family knew where the mines were located. We have yet to understand the real purpose the Stone Maps were created, but there are many that believe they are a hoax. What about the Latin Heart? It appears to be a topo map that is read in a translucent manner. It does seem to focus on a small area around a mining camp. Was the camp just North of Bluff Springs Mountain, or was it up near the Salt River on Tortilla Flats. What about the Bilbrey Stone Crosses? What was the purpose of creating them, and where are they now? Did Michael Bilbrey find them in a cave?

 

[markmar]

lgadbois

I didn't expect to believe me , and I don't tried to push you in this way . I wrote only my opinions . I respect your beliefs , and you can continue to follow what believe the most of the LDM and stone tablets hunters . Make your own research and maybe you might get lucky .

 

[lgadbois]

One of the best things about these forums is the discussion of ideas. You have some good ideas.

The first time I saw pictures of the Stone Maps was in a June 1976 Treasure Magazine article that was written by Thomas Probert. The article was a detailed so called solving of the "Peralta Stone Maps." Probert believed that the stone map followed a trail from Arizpe to the Superstitions. The article gives his opinion on names of most of the 18 places, and the meanings of the symbols. I suggested Probert's solution as a possibility on TNet and was immediately attacked by CactusJumper. At the time I did not know Joe's history and research, and his solution of the monumented trail.

I do not hold to any particular beliefs regarding the LDM. I have done extensive research on other treasure projects. About 50 years ago I said I would never bother with researching the Lost Dutchman, but I changed my mind. Like many that are on this forum, I find the LDM-Peralta-Waltz-Waltzer-Wieser stories and commentaries fascinating. I am also a person that can add 2+2 and come up with 4. It is too easy to believe almost every contribution to these legends. We are confronted with having a lot of here-say and circumstantial information, and a real shortage of facts. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If someone is able to assemble the information and win the prize, that will be the proof of the pudding.

The stories of finding immense wealth in the Superstition have never been proven. The location of a Jesuit treasure in a cave above the location tagged Casa Caverna on Google Earth around 1943 may or may not be true. I don't believe Chuck Kenworthy dug anything of value out his mining claim on Bluff Spring Mountain in 1983. Just because Harry LaFrance and friends showed a single gold bar, it doesn't mean that there was ever a recovery of a stack like gold bars. Where is the proof? A few small gold locations have been found in the Superstitions, but as far as we know there have not been any profitable mines.

I do believe that the treasure of the Superstitions is in the beauty of this harsh and rugged country!

 

[cactusjumper]

One of the best things about these forums is the discussion of ideas. You have some good ideas.

The first time I saw pictures of the Stone Maps was in a June 1976 Treasure Magazine article that was written by Thomas Probert. The article was a detailed so called solving of the "Peralta Stone Maps." Probert believed that the stone map followed a trail from Arizpe to the Superstitions. The article gives his opinion on names of most of the 18 places, and the meanings of the symbols. I suggested Probert's solution as a possibility on TNet and was immediately attacked by CactusJumper. At the time I did not know Joe's history and research, and his solution of the monumented trail.

I do not hold to any particular beliefs regarding the LDM. I have done extensive research on other treasure projects. About 50 years ago I said I would never bother with researching the Lost Dutchman, but I changed my mind. Like many that are on this forum, I find the LDM-Peralta-Waltz-Waltzer-Wieser stories and commentaries fascinating. I am also a person that can add 2+2 and come up with 4. It is too easy to believe almost every contribution to these legends. We are confronted with having a lot of here-say and circumstantial information, and a real shortage of facts. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If someone is able to assemble the information and win the prize, that will be the proof of the pudding.

The stories of finding immense wealth in the Superstition have never been proven. The location of a Jesuit treasure in a cave above the location tagged Casa Caverna on Google Earth around 1943 may or may not be true. I don't believe Chuck Kenworthy dug anything of value out his mining claim on Bluff Spring Mountain in 1983. Just because Harry LaFrance and friends showed a single gold bar, it doesn't mean that there was ever a recovery of a stack like gold bars. Where is the proof? A few small gold locations have been found in the Superstitions, but as far as we know there have not been any profitable mines.

I do believe that the treasure of the Superstitions is in the beauty of this harsh and rugged country!

Igadbois,

I have no idea what you are referring to. Don't believe I have ever "attacked" you. In fact, don't believe we have had many exchanges, at all.

If you are talking about our one (1) exchange on this topic, it was no attack at all. If it was somewhere else, please copy and paste it here so I can apologize. Otherwise, you should apologize to me.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[lgadbois]

Joe,
We are not at war here, and I don't think that either one of us owes the other an apology.

You have posted some "good stories" on this forum without supporting facts. We are not perfect. When I posted information on Probert's view of his interpretation of the Stone Maps, I did not present it as a final answer, but as Probert's opinion. I also interjected the idea of the Jesuits moving their possessions to a safe hiding place. About 98% of what is posted on these forums is not factual. That doesn't mean that there isn't practical value in discussing the opinions of others without taking shots at the authors.

******************************************************************
Read your posting:

[h=2]Re: The Peralta Stones[/h]

Igad,

Sorry you took that as a personal attack. I post here for the same reason everyone else posts. Exchange of ideas. Probably a new concept for you, but don't give up on the idea too quickly.

It does not take much grey matter to figure that the "stones are genuine" as they are their own best (physical) evidence. That does not mean they are not a modern-day hoax, which is something I have always said was more than possible.

There is no evidence they are related to the Peraltas. Did I say they were? That would be a mistake on my part.

I said it was "a good story". Don't you think that's "constructive"? I said there wasn't "a shred of evidence". I believe that's "constructive". It opens your comments to debate, which most would consider "constructive".

On the other hand, your last post is designed to close any debate, and is a weak minded attempt to avoid coming up with facts or evidence to support your shoddy research.

No one has appointed me "history monitor", it just seems like a worthwhile endeavor to correct those who try to change history, especially when they don't really have a clue as to what is true, and what is fantasy.

Please feel free to attack any "facts" I might present, that you feel are in error. The intelligent and proper way to do that, is to attack the "evidence" someone presents, and not attack the presenter of those facts.

I believe we are all here to share our thoughts. If you should come up with one, I hope you will not be reluctant to let everyone know. There are people who try to restrict that freedom.....You're not one of those people, are you?

cj​

*********************************************************************
You started this post saying you were sorry that I took your previous response as an attack. Then you turned around and back handed me. I took offense at your response where you called me weak minded and had shoddy research. None of what I had to say was based on my personal research. And there was no need in stating your opinion to say that I was being "weak minded".

If you feel that your mission in life is to demand proof for everything that is posted on the LDM forum, I have some bad news for you: You are not going to get it! Remember that your truth is not dependent on what others write.

I don't hold anything against you. Where is offense taken or given, The Lord's Prayer asks that we are forgiven as we forgive others that trespass against us. I forgave you long ago.

 

[cactusjumper]

Egadbois,

I apologize for that thoughtless post.

On the other hand, I don't feel that I "demand proof". When people come up with new or unusual stories, I ask for some kind of historical documentation. It's up to each individual if they decide to provide......anything.

Once again, my previous post to you was way over the line. Please accept my sincere apology.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lgadbois]

Joe,

Thank you for the apology, which I accept without reservation. I also want you to know that I appreciate your knowledge and eye for detail, and your desire to be truthful in your dealings with other people. Please consider me a friend.

lgadbois

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

Thank you for the apology, which I accept without reservation. I also want you to know that I appreciate your knowledge and eye for detail, and your desire to be truthful in your dealings with other people. Please consider me a friend.

lgadbois

Igadbois,

Consider it done.

Take care,

Joe