The Lost Doc Thorne Mine - was it the same mine of Jacob Waltz?

[Springfield]

There was a 'Dr. A.D. Thorne' residing in Lemitar, NM (just north of Socorro), according to the 1870 and 1880 US Census Records (below). There is also a 'Dr. A.D. Thorne' interred in the La Sagrada Familia Catholic Cemetery in Lemitar, NM. Dr A. D. Thorne - Find A Grave Memorial (no dob or dod). He's presumably in a Mexican cemetery since he married (or partnered with) Paula Gonzalez and her children Lupe (b. 1870) and Mary (b. 1885) sometime between 1870 and 1880.

I've found no indication he was in the military in AZ or NM.


1870



1880

 

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[Cubfan64]

boy are you in for a surprise if you ever see the superstitions up close...

I had been warned what to expect when I did my first hike in the Superstitions. Coming from where I had "exploring" experience in the midwest and northeast, while I knew what to expect, the difficulties still exceeded my expectations.

It's not an exaggeration to say that there were places I could literally throw a rock to, which then took me 20+ minutes to actually get to because of the underbrush and washes every few feet in some situations.

I've learned a lot since I first set foot out there, and I learn more every time.

 

[Springfield]

Here's a well-fleshed out version of the Thorne story. This one claims to come from the diary of one John Spring,who allegedly interviewed Thorne in 1870. If there is such a diary, it would be a valuable account, IMO.

http://www.rioverdehoa.org/editor_upload/File/MASON%20Dr_%20Thorne.pdf

 

[Oroblanco]

Old Bookaroo wrote

According to Tales of the Superstitions by Robert Blair (Tempe, Arizona: 1975) Dr. A.D. Thorne of Lemitar, Socorro County, New Mexico Territory, worked for the US Army, treated wounded soldiers, and was abducted by Navajos in 1854 and during that time discovered a rich ledge of gold.

and

Blair states the ubiquitous "Barry Storm" was the first writer to link the Dr. Thorne story to the Lost Dutchman Mine.

The Navajo version is one version, and we could point out that the Navajos were ranging much farther afield than their current reservation prior to 1868. Blair is mistaken to attribute the linking of Dr Thorn to the LDM by Barry Storm, since it was proposed in Arizona weekly citizen., February 29, 1896, pp 2 column 5. (You can pull this up on the LOC site) This predates Storm's publications by a number of years.

Old Bookaroo also wrote

Finally, Blair mentions the role Capt. Corydon Cooley played in seeking the Dr. Thorne lode. I believe he spent his later years seeking the Lost Adams Diggings, but I'd like to check Dobie's Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver to confirm it was the same Capt. Cooley.Good luck to all,

I don't see an issue in this being the same person, going on more than one hunt for a lost mine, which is not the same mine. I don't wish to throw too many stones at Blair's work, I like it in fact, but his research is not perfect (the earliest Bicknell article as an example, which he missed) and I can't agree with his conclusions.

Cactusjumper wrote

OB,

Blair was who I was using as a source. His research was pretty good, conclusions.....so, so.

Have to agree with you on this one.

Which coincidentally supports your own theory that there was no LDM, and that it was the Pit mine? Sorry that sounded like a cheap shot, which was intended as a poke in fun. It is surprising to me that you can not see any possible connections between Dr Thorn, Waltz, Weiser, Dr Walker etc.

Have to disagree with the statement posted about being "short on documentation" when in comparison with many other lost mines, the Lost Dutchman has quite a lot. What level of documentation are you expecting, for a mine which was never claimed legally? Isn't that a little unrealistic in expectations to think you will have more than what we do have?

Markmar - thank you for finding that source, and a side thing but do you see what I mean about finding two treasure hunters that agree on things?

This long-running debate strikes me as somewhat hopeless, short of finding the actual mine, for the skeptics demand proofs which do not exist, and dismiss what evidence there is. What we have is a long tradition, reported in newspapers, of a lost gold mine in the Superstition mountains. Such traditions do not grow out of the air. Dr Thorn was out looking for the mine at least as early as 1869, but not sure the 1856 date is correct either for his abduction, but will fit with one version. Considering that Dr Thorn was certainly alive when articles were being published in newspapers about the search for his lost mine, if it were false don't you expect that he would have refuted them? Instead, he is reported as "speaking freely" about his lost mine. Thorn did not file a claim on his discovery, neither did Waltz or Weiser, so there is not going to be a real-estate type paper trail.

Thank you all for the posts and opinions, I hope you have a very pleasant evening.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

... What we have is a long tradition, reported in newspapers, of a lost gold mine in the Superstition mountains. Such traditions do not grow out of the air. Dr Thorn was out looking for the mine at least as early as 1869, but not sure the 1856 date is correct either for his abduction, but will fit with one version. Considering that Dr Thorn was certainly alive when articles were being published in newspapers about the search for his lost mine, if it were false don't you expect that he would have refuted them? Instead, he is reported as "speaking freely" about his lost mine. Thorn did not file a claim on his discovery, neither did Waltz or Weiser, so there is not going to be a real-estate type paper trail ...

The Dr. Thorne story 'feels better' than the Waltz legend, to me at least. One thing's for sure - Thorne predates Waltz. Since the Thorne story was a known entity in Arizona at least twenty years before the LDM rumors caught fire, a suspicious mind might wonder if parts of the Waltz story weren't modeled after Thorne's.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,
________________________

[Cactusjumper wrote

OB,

Blair was who I was using as a source. His research was pretty good, conclusions.....so, so.

Have to agree with you on this one.


Which coincidentally supports your own theory that there was no LDM, and that it was the Pit mine? Sorry that sounded like a cheap shot, which was intended as a poke in fun. It is surprising to me that you can not see any possible connections between Dr Thorn, Waltz, Weiser, Dr Walker etc.

Have to disagree with the statement posted about being "short on documentation" when in comparison with many other lost mines, the Lost Dutchman has quite a lot. What level of documentation are you expecting, for a mine which was never claimed legally? Isn't that a little unrealistic in expectations to think you will have more than what we do have?]
_________________________

I have a lot of "theories". I don't take any of them to the bank. I also, quite easily, can see the "connections between Dr Thorn, Waltz, Weiser, Dr Walker etc." On the other hand, I will be the first to admit my powers of deduction are not what they once were.

It's a very interesting story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Roy,

Bob Mason's version seems more credible to me. With the LDM being so rich, and popular, every other story gets connected to it somehow. Even silver mines miles away from the LDM clues are suspected as being the LDM. I have always believed that the pit mine is also a totally different mine that Ruth believed to be the LDM. The PSM's are also tied to the famous LDM by some without finding a valid reason of doing so.

For the same reasons, there are many Tayopa's, and many LDM's.

Homar

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Oroblanco:

Thank you for the early suggestion that the Lost Dr. Throne and the Lost Dutchman Mine were the same. Well played, Sir, well played!

Any serious writer will agree that throwing stones at another author for minor slips is dangerous territory. There be dragons!

I did not intend to suggest the LDM is short on documentation. I have my own views on that legend, but in this case I was referring to the account linked by Markmar. We have Storm's Apache bride, the new character of Apace Jack, et. al. To not repeat my error and to be very specific, I was referring to Lee Prince's lack of bibliography, sources, footnotes, etc.

As for Capt. Cooley seeking both the Dr. Thorne and the Lost Adams Diggings, I thought it a point of interest - not a comment on the merits (or lack thereof) of either lost ledge.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

PS: This has turned into another classic TN Thread - contributions, research with sources, considered opinions and a lively exchange of views. What fun!

 

[s.c.shooter]

I don't know much about the tribes even though my Great grandmother was Cherokee. I do however know that native people like the Mayans crafted a lot of gold into jewelry and idols, etc. Is there any documentation that the native American tribes actually did this too. I've heard lots of treasure stories where persons were led by natives blindfolded to different sources of gold,silver etc. If native Americans did mine treasure it seems that they would have manufactured some of it into different objects, used it for trading for goods and arms etc.??

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Which coincidentally supports your own theory that there was no LDM, and that it was the Pit mine?"

Having said that I believe the Pit Mine was the LDM, there is nothing that I have seen that changes my mind. There are so many possibilities as to what the LDM actually is, that the Pit Mine is a pretty good bet. It seems to me that, because of it's richness, the LDM could be something along the lines of the Bully Bueno as well as many other rich gold mines in Arizona, that pinched out at shallow depths.

Given that Waltz never filed a claim on the LDM, it seems possible that the Pit Mine was a worked out silver mine that became a perfect cache for side products of the silver that was being worked in the area.......Like gold. How it worked out that the cache was abandoned is anyone's guess.

Since one of the Feldman boys publicly announced that he believed the Pit Mine was the LDM, you will have to give that statement whatever weight you feel it deserves. I, personally, give it quite a bit of credibility.

None of what I have written is the final word on the subject. My research on the subject has been enough to convince me that it is more than possible.

Believe it's going to be a very cold winter, so you better get the splitter warmed up.

Take care,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

cache found and cleaned out?
ldm clues leading to the pit mine?

iron mountain was always a gold bearing area...that's why magma claimed out there.

 

[markmar]

Here's a well-fleshed out version of the Thorne story. This one claims to come from the diary of one John Spring,who allegedly interviewed Thorne in 1870. If there is such a diary, it would be a valuable account, IMO.

http://www.rioverdehoa.org/editor_upload/File/MASON%20Dr_%20Thorne.pdf

Thank you for the link . From what I have read in this account , I keep the text " On one of these trips he did see a large quantity of gold nuggets in a dry wash close to some very red rock outcroppings" for my LAD theory and the text " Thorne was led blindfolded on a round-trip of three days into an area where he was allowed to pick up a large amount of gold-bearing ore. " for my golden ledge below to LDM theory .

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Apache Gold 6 Claim


notice the location.

 

[Oroblanco]

Another windbag of a post, extra coffee alert

Hola amigos - this reply got very long, and is mainly for our mutual amigo Cactusjumper Joe, so please feel free to skip it and I won't be offended. Otherwise I suggest filling your coffee mug now, as this will test your patience, and thank you in advance.

Cactusjumper wrote

Having said that I believe the Pit Mine was the LDM, there is nothing that I have seen that changes my mind. There are so many possibilities as to what the LDM actually is, that the Pit Mine is a pretty good bet. It seems to me that, because of it's richness, the LDM could be something along the lines of the Bully Bueno as well as many other rich gold mines in Arizona, that pinched out at shallow depths.

Given that Waltz never filed a claim on the LDM, it seems possible that the Pit Mine was a worked out silver mine that became a perfect cache for side products of the silver that was being worked in the area.......Like gold. How it worked out that the cache was abandoned is anyone's guess.

Since one of the Feldman boys publicly announced that he believed the Pit Mine was the LDM, you will have to give that statement whatever weight you feel it deserves. I, personally, give it quite a bit of credibility.

In a previous post, actually several, you pointed out a string of the clues which, as you pointed out, fit the story of the LDM. I will point up only one that is a major issue, that the Pit mine has a funnel-shaped shaft or pit, and a tunnel beneath.

First, let us look at where this description originates. Yes it is found in both the Holmes and Julia/Reiney versions, but is absent in the Pioneer interviews. In fact the Pioneer interviews version does not give much of a description, wish I had gotten the exact names of whom was interviewed for future reference, but the only detail I found was that it had an opening no larger than a barrel. No large funnel-shaped pit OR accompanying tunnel.

Consider whether it would be easier to set some logs down into the entrance of a mine shaft no larger than a barrel, or one that is a large funnel shaped pit. Clearly it would be far easier to create a 'cap' for a much smaller shaft opening right?

Now think about how Waltz supposedly emphasized to his friends Julia and Reiney how difficult it was to find the mine, even when you know where it is. If it were a large open funnel shaped pit, would that be SO difficult to find, if you knew where it was? Waltz is supposed to have hidden the mine well, yet in other accounts (Joe Deering) the mine was open to the sky, with hunks of ore laying around the entrance. See a discrepancy there? Does it make more sense that a mine with an opening the size of a barrel, covered up, might not be much more difficult to find than a large open funnel?

I don't believe the funnel-shaped pit/tunnel mine has a thing to do with the mine of Jacob Waltz. For one thing we can find the very same description in the Peralta/Ludy brothers mine, and one version of that has it as a lost SILVER mine. The Peralta/Ludy story predates Waltz, and somehow morphed into a gold mine instead of silver. Again, it would not be queer for gold to be found in a silver mine, especially a rich silver mine. If a mine has that characteristic funnel-shaped pit and tunnel, in my opinion that does not fit with the Pioneer interviews version at all.

Then there is the ore itself - the Pit ore looks to me to be epithermal in nature, not meso- or hypothermal, which only really relates to the depth at which it was formed. The Waltz ore assay done for Dick Holmes came back very low in silver, comparatively, to the high gold values, which is a characteristic I have noticed in most hypothermal deposits but the opposite case for epithermal or mesothermal types.

I have great respect for the Feldmans and do not wish to cast aspersions on them; I was aware that at least one of the Feldmans had expressed an opinion that the Pit mine was the LDM, but can't agree with that opinion. In fact I believe they have found the lost Peralta or Ludy brothers mine, perhaps one and the same with Joe Deering's mine.

If the ore from the Bully Bueno, the Big Rebel or any other mine was a match for the matchbox, don't you think that someone would have tried to make that case by now? People do occasionally propose some mine as the LDM, like the Vulture, the Bulldog, etc but no expert in geology has ever supported such contentions. The Bully Bueno was epithermal, which is why it pinched out, as that is common for epithermal type deposits. My bet would be that it had quite a fair amount of silver in the ore in a ratio to the gold too.

I have a problem with "cleaned out caches" for how would anyone ever know what was in a hole in the ground? I have another issue with a known cache of very rich ore, being left deliberately by a discoverer. Why would anyone leave a cache of rich gold ore, which would not require any of the hard and dangerous work of cracking it out of the host rock in a deep mine? Unless the ore was of such a low grade as to make the effort of packing it out not worth it, I can not buy that.

What about the sheer depth of the Pit mine shaft? Over 80 feet as I understand it; when the mine of Waltz is not supposed to be excavated to a depth much more than a dozen feet. Doesn't that discrepancy indicate some question for you? Do we explain it away as the work of someone who found the mine without letting anyone know, worked it out to that depth and then abandoned it? If you think that people will keep such a secret, look at the people whom worked the Pit mine - they could not keep it secret either even though it was illegal for them to be mining it when they were. It is something to be proud of, having found a rich mine and gained new wealth by hard and dangerous labor, especially a lost mine so widely coveted and of such fame as the Lost Dutchman. I don't think anyone, despite what people will say on the treasure forums, could keep it a secret to the grave, if they found something like the Lost Dutchman mine. Why should they?

We are bracing for the deep freeze, which the Huskies seem to be very much enthusiastic about; we have no way to burn wood but hopefully by next year that situation will change. In the meantime, my splitter needs very little warming up, as it is this type:

I never worry about freezing to death in the bunk for we always have warm Huskies to curl up with.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Not sure where you got the "dozen feet", but Bark states that Jake told Julia and Rhiney that the mine was "about seventy-feet deep....". I will be the first to admit that I'm partial to the Bark and Ely accounts. Once Waltz had died, and the story started getting circulated, there were people coming out of the woodwork claiming they had known or were good friends of Jacob Waltz.

I just don't believe the stories that his mine was common knowledge. Hell.....I knew Waltz personally, and he never said one word about having a rich mine in the Superstitions to me, his best friend.

Not even a wood or coal burning stove Even tents can have a stove in them.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

Not sure where you got the "dozen feet", but Bark states that Jake told Julia and Rhiney that the mine was "about seventy-feet deep....". I will be the first to admit that I'm partial to the Bark and Ely accounts.

I did not make up the 12 foot figure personally amigo, if you need the source I can find it. Can you point me to where you got the 70 foot deep figure?

Cactusjumper also wrote

Once Waltz had died, and the story started getting circulated, there were people coming out of the woodwork claiming they had known or were good friends of Jacob Waltz.

Isn't that compressing time a bit there amigo, and perhaps even stretching things a bit? People "coming out of the woodwork" so to speak? The Pioneer interviews which you seem to be including in that assumption, were done in the Depression years, and there are only a handful of persons that had anything to say about Waltz at all, not a large number by any measure. In fact the brevity, lack of sensational or drama in those interviews gives the impression that they are more likely the true version than the widely circulated and popular account with Apache massacres, murders of various people etc. I wish I had made copies but did not, only wrote notes for my own use, and have only five (5) persons that said anything about Waltz. There was nothing about Peraltas, Apache massacres etc connected with Waltz. Also consider that these people in the old folks home, had been approached and interviewed, it was not a case of them coming forward to try to get publicity or fame. These interviews were done 1935-1938, over forty years after Waltz's death, does that seem like coming out of the woodwork to you? It does not to me. In my opinion, they are more credible than even Sims Ely, but are not collected and published in any book that I am aware of.

I can even present a simile - quite a few survivors of the 7th cavalry fight on the Little Bighorn came forward with their stories, even up to sixty years after the battle; their accounts are no less valuable than some which came out soon after the fight. I can think of one example of a fellow who claimed he had known Waltz and saw his mine, but probably did not, (Abe Reid) but not that many such examples.

Speaking of Sims Ely, perhaps you can recall the topic of Dr Glover's presentation about Ely's book, and that he pointed out that Ely and Bark did realize that the funnel-shaped pit etc really had nothing to do with Waltz's mine, but too late in their lives to do anything about it. You received an award at the same presentation, so I would bet you can recall it.

Cactusjumper also wrote

I just don't believe the stories that his mine was common knowledge. Hell.....I knew Waltz personally, and he never said one word about having a rich mine in the Superstitions to me, his best friend.

Why should Waltz have told you about his mine amigo, knowing the way so many people are when a lot of gold is involved? Do you hold that a man like Waltz, could not have learned by observation of human behavior, in the course of over twenty years between the time when he was using Florence as a place to restock and re-supply, and his final years in Phoenix? I was not in Florence in the late 1800s so can't say for sure, have to judge on words only but it has a ring of truth to it in my opinion.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Not even a wood or coal burning stove Even tents can have a stove in them.

Oh we have a fireplace, but no chimney yet, I am not willing to buy a metal one having seen what they do over time, and the winds we get here, masonry is the only sensible choice. In the meantime it is propane and electric for warmth, and a furry companion or two.

I hope all is well with you amigo, sort of like an open letter type thing we are doing here but some of the info may be of some interest to others. Take it easy and I wish you a most pleasant evening.

Thank you to everyone and I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

This is all probably old news to the aficionados, but I found this short video interesting, especially the ruts. Ironically, wagon-wheel ruts worn into rocks (or what appear to be so), IMO, may be more of a message than they are genuine - at least in some cases, one of which I've seen in New Mexico. It might be useful to plot these ruts' location and evaluate their position in relation to other map nodes in the Superstitions.




I believe the video is embedded in the following series, Superstition Mountains | Examiner.com

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

The "seventy-foot deep" comes directly from the Bark notes. Believe I stated that in the post.

It only takes two people to qualify as "people coming out of the woodwork". I did not specify a time span. Even old man Petrasch claimed he knew Waltz personally. That claim came many years after Waltz's death, but I believe it was fairly typical.

Obviously, no one has the answers 100 %, so anything is possible.

Take care,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

well.

I wish to see evidence this pit mine was Spanish or anything evidence beyond "we found it, you cant see a bit of what we found"

I am a historian...I want facts, not gold or tales...show me...

please...

 

[cactusjumper]

Donald,

I don't know if there are any "facts" that the Spanish were ever in the Superstitions. Believe we only have stories.

I could, of course, be wrong.

Take care,

Joe