THE IRON BOX: Now its mentioned, now its not

Prest Olives said:
This thread started with the Iron Box, it was mentioned in some accounts and not in others, this is not a proof of validity or not, some felt the box was important and others did not...
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The question being asked about Mr Otey's iron box with that torn slip of handwritten random upon it, is WHY did George L Hart have it shown to Pauline Innis?
Was this iron box represented as THE BEALE iron box?
How can that torn slip of paper represent the 3 pages of ciphers mentioned in the Beale Papers or the 8 sheets of ciphers that N H Hazelwood had Clayton Hart copy?

As for "who cares", it matters when haphazard wrong speculative information is presented as fact- that should be every researcher's concern. That is "who cares".
 

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ECS said:
The question being asked about Mr Otey's iron box with that torn slip of handwritten random upon it, is WHY did George L Hart have it shown to Pauline Innis?
Was this iron box represented as THE BEALE iron box?
How can that torn slip of paper represent the 3 pages of ciphers mentioned in the Beale Papers or the 8 sheets of ciphers that N H Hazelwood had Clayton Hart copy?
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It may well be, that the pages of Ciphers Were 8 sheets of paper... dunno. The torn pieces of paper (NUMBERS), DID appear to be torn, as to match each other, as "A CODE". It is on pg. 222 of the GOLD Cover paper back, GOLD IN THE BLUE RIDGE by P.B. & Walter Innis... GET IT!
 

bigscoop said:
That's because there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there ever was a box.
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.and that is the point being made.
James Beverly Ward NEVER saw the actual box or ciphers or the Beale letters to Morriss according to the narrative text- he was provided with a finished manuscript by the "unknown author" which mentioned the iron box and ciphers.
The existence of the iron box and ciphers is solely based on the word of the "unknown author" as stated in the manuscript he presented to Ward, and the entire Beale treasure story is based on the existence of these letters and the iron box ciphers.
There is no collaborating evidence contemporary with the events in the "Beale letters" or during the "2nd year of the Confederate War" that can confirm the existence of this iron box or ciphers which makes Mr Otey's iron box with torn numbers paper highly suspect as being the Beale iron box of the story.
 

ECS said:
.and that is the point being made.
James Beverly Ward NEVER saw the actual box or ciphers or the Beale letters to Morriss according to the narrative text- he was provided with a finished manuscript by the "unknown author" which mentioned the iron box and ciphers.
The existence of the iron box and ciphers is solely based on the word of the "unknown author" as stated in the manuscript he presented to Ward, and the entire Beale treasure story is based on the existence of these letters and the iron box ciphers.
There is no collaborating evidence contemporary with the events in the "Beale letters" or during the "2nd year of the Confederate War" that can confirm the existence of this iron box or ciphers which makes Mr Otey's iron box with torn numbers paper highly suspect as being the Beale iron box of the story.
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AH SO! "Just Saying" stated that he DID find an Iron Box that fell apart on him in PA... YEARS, ago! Was even on TV!
 

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ECS said:
.and that is the point being made.
James Beverly Ward NEVER saw the actual box or ciphers or the Beale letters to Morriss according to the narrative text- he was provided with a finished manuscript by the "unknown author" which mentioned the iron box and ciphers.
The existence of the iron box and ciphers is solely based on the word of the "unknown author" as stated in the manuscript he presented to Ward, and the entire Beale treasure story is based on the existence of these letters and the iron box ciphers.
There is no collaborating evidence contemporary with the events in the "Beale letters" or during the "2nd year of the Confederate War" that can confirm the existence of this iron box or ciphers which makes Mr Otey's iron box with torn numbers paper highly suspect as being the Beale iron box of the story.
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The iron box of the Otey's mentioned by George Hart was from over 120 years ago. A lot closer to the scene of the "accident" than you will ever be in 2019
 

...and that still does NOT make Otey's iron box THE iron box of Ward's published Beale Papers pamphlet.
With all of George L Hart's alleging and surmising and Mr Otey the first cousin of his wife-
WHY is this iron box NENER mentioned in the Hart Papers?
It does appear suspect that the convenient location of the iron box was known to Hart when he introduced Pauline Innis to the Beale treasure story, a prop utilized as a lure to reel in her involvement.
 

franklin said:
While up there with her husband, she most likely contacted her next of kin, the Harts.
I know they were kin but I do not have the records to verify.
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As stated in Pauline B Innis's obituary, the Right Rev Lawrence E Luscombe, former Primus of the Episcopal Church of Scotland, as first cousin, was her closest relative.
The Right Rev Luscombe traveled from Scotland to preside at her funeral in Washington DC.
That Innis was "next to kin" to the Harts is at best an assumption that is "alleged" and "surmised" as true, but most likely force fitted speculation lacking any verifying records.
 

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ECS said:
As stated in Pauline B Innis's obituary, the Right Rev Lawrence E Luscombe, former Primus of the Episcopal Church of Scotland, as first cousin, was her closest relative.
The Right Rev Luscombe traveled from Scotland to preside at her funeral in Washington DC.
That Innis was "next to kin" to the Harts is at best an assumption that is "alleged" and "surmised" as true, but most likely force fitted speculation lacking any verifying records.
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Old news from over three years ago. Have you talked to the Rev. Luscombe from Scotland?
 

Pauline Innis lived at the Watergate Hotel in Washington, D.C. I telephoned her and talked to her on several occasions. I still have Christmas Cards from her we exchanged several years. Nicest lady you would ever want to talk to or to meet. I only wished I could have went on a Beale Treasure hunt with her and her husband and their friends.
 

I telephoned Pauline one night inquiring about the two small pieces of paper that were said to have come from the iron box. I asked her was she sure that that was all that was contained in the iron box. These are her exact words, "Give me a couple of days. I will look and I will get back to you." I asked if it was o.k. I would telephone her back after a couple of days. She said, "That would be fine." So I let it go about a week. Not wanting to over stay my welcome. I telephoned her and asked her bluntly about the iron box. I said, "Pauline was that all that was in the iron box." She replied, "Yes, that was all." Now if she did not have the iron box, why would she have to look for it to see if that was all that was contained in it. I assure you Pauline had the Otey iron box from Roanoke, Virginia, that George Hart told her about in her "Gold" Book.
 

franklin said:
I telephoned Pauline one night inquiring about the two small pieces of paper that were said to have come from the iron box. I asked her was she sure that that was all that was contained in the iron box. These are her exact words, "Give me a couple of days. I will look and I will get back to you." I asked if it was o.k. I would telephone her back after a couple of days. She said, "That would be fine." So I let it go about a week. Not wanting to over stay my welcome. I telephoned her and asked her bluntly about the iron box. I said, "Pauline was that all that was in the iron box." She replied, "Yes, that was all." Now if she did not have the iron box, why would she have to look for it to see if that was all that was contained in it. I assure you Pauline had the Otey iron box from Roanoke, Virginia, that George Hart told her about in her "Gold" Book.
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From what you wrote, it seems that Pauline Innis never actually stated that the iron box was in her possession.
"I will look and I will get back to you" could mean she had to consult her notes concerning the iron box and its contents.
There is no mention of Mr Otey giving the iron box and contents to Pauline Innis, only that she was shown the box.
Without personally observing the "Otey iron box from Roanoke, Virginia" in Pauline Innis's possession, one can not "assure" that it was in her possession from a telephone call.
 

ECS said:
From what you wrote, it seems that Pauline Innis never actually stated that the iron box was in her possession.
"I will look and I will get back to you" could mean she had to consult her notes concerning the iron box and its contents.
There is no mention of Mr Otey giving the iron box and contents to Pauline Innis, only that she was shown the box.
Without personally observing the "Otey iron box from Roanoke, Virginia" in Pauline Innis's possession, one can not "assure" that it was in her possession from a telephone call.
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Even if you personally held something in your hands, you would still deny where the held item in your hands originated? You are never convinced of anything. But to make a short story long without your skepticism we would not be able to continue these threads. Welcome back from where ever you have been.
 

Agreed.

Where have you been hiding ECS ?

Under a rock I presume. :P
 

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