The greatest threat to our hobby (long post)

[Muddyhandz]

Yes Tom, it isn't always black or white and there's often more than two options.
For the final time, I don't disagree with just walking in and hunting parks. We all have no problem with that where I live and no one has a problem with us doing so.
But to say that asking for permission for things that we're not totally sure about is destructive is a limited view.
Can you prove without a doubt that it will always result in some official saying no, thus resulting in a place where no one can hunt anymore?
You don't have to give the same examples from your life story that we've all read for years. Because those are your experiences and not necessarily everyone else's.
A large park in our city has always been heavily populated by treasure hunters. None of us have ever asked to search this park and no one has an issue with us hunting there.
It's a big place but pretty hunted out for the old finds. There's a large fenced off zoo right in the middle and I thought it would be a good place to try, so I phoned the zoo which directed me to a head honcho in the parks department.
This official told me no. I asked why and he said that they made a special day where they opened up the gate and let two guys with detectors in who had asked him for permission. These two hunters dug up holes everywhere, making a mess and threw their garbage right beside each hole. I assured him that I only use a screwdriver and would leave the place better than it was.
He almost budged but said there were several asking for permission and if he let me in, then there would be others who may not be so kind. The cricket field in that park also had park employees kicking people out because of the holes left there but allowed me after seeing my retrieval technique.
In fact Tom, there were a few iffy public places (not typical parks) that I phoned in and got the same response. Quite a few private properties that had the same problem. Someone left a mess or went in there without permission, causing the owner to not want anyone with a detector near there.
There's one for you......How many places are off-limits because someone went there WITHOUT asking permission?
So, my experience is different than yours. The message that I've heard for many years is this.......
SOMEONE RUINED IT FOR ME AND EVERYONE ELSE.
Seriously. Can you possibly imagine that some places are off-limits because no one asked for permission?
If people keep coming on my land or a place that I worked at (assuming that I wasn't a detectorist) without checking in with me, would I not develop some sort of bitterness and ban everyone from ever coming there?
I agree with TreasurePirate69. There's many flaws in your logic.
I still agree with just going into public parks and there's no need to ask but there are so many public places other than parks.
Thanks for the good discussion everyone!

 

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[Muddyhandz]

I got nothing against you Muddhanz...we need to all work on being polite, well spoken law abiding citizens just like you...then you can like us all and we can be one big happy family...my goal is to one day be as good you are.

Hey, I'm no saint but I'm glad you think I am.
I'll tell you what. I'll get a nice picture of myself blown up real big and put my autograph at the bottom and then mail it and you can hang it on your wall.
I imagine you have a sore neck from always "lookindown" and now you'll have something to look up to.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Another point to note is although we are the oldest and largest Metal Detecting forum, members here only represent a small portion on the hobbiest over all. I can't count the number of hunters I met had never heard if TN, nor belong to any online forums...

 

[Muddyhandz]

T.H. I'm sure some still haven't heard of this place but I think it's bigger than you think.
One of the major reasons I deleted my first account was from doing random google searches on fur trade items and I kept getting directed to my own posts on T-net.
In fact, I was the number one hit for Hudson Bay Company buttons and the department store actually used my buttons (via T-net) on their website!
I don't have to go on this forum to see posts. They're all over the internet.
Believe me, there's hundreds of thousands of our posts from day one coming up on searches.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

T.H. I'm sure some still haven't heard of this place but I think it's bigger than you think.
One of the major reasons I deleted my first account was from doing random google searches on fur trade items and I kept getting directed to my own posts on T-net.
In fact, I was the number one hit for Hudson Bay Company buttons and the department store actually used my buttons (via T-net) on their website!
I don't have to go on this forum to see posts. They're all over the internet.
Believe me, there's hundreds of thousands of our posts from day one coming up on searches.

No doubt TN is on top of Google searches but that is just as much due to web designer as size and content, TN website has been highly optimized for Google search engine.

Mods get email notification of every single new member to register as well as traffic reports from admins.

I am by no means minimizing TN impact, but we are still not the one stop site, many never heard of us.....Posting something here does not get the word out to all the masses...

 

[pepperj]

He could be jealous of my finds you will have to ask him.

SS

I could be a tad jealous of you being able to walk out the door almost to play in the old dirt, I on the other hand I still have to fly some 8hrs to do it.

 

[lookindown]

Keep educating everyone Tom...common sense is a lost art...most people get what your saying but some are a lost cause.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

But to say that asking for permission for things that we're not totally sure about is destructive is a limited view.

I agree Muddy. But the key words here, from your own mouth, is: "not totally sure about". The key therefore, is to become "TOTALLY SURE". And by what method is a person to go about that? By asking bored deskbound bureaucrats "can I?". No. The method is to look it up for oneself. Thus I'm in agreement with that a person could be "totally sure", if they wanted.

Perhaps it's just the method to go about that. If a location (city or county) is so small, that they have no website with city charter, muni codes, and so forth (or they have a website that is cryptic and limited, etc...), then here are two other options: At city hall, all such things like those should usually be out for the public, somewhere, somehow. You know, like in binder form on the front counter. And if you don't see city laws/codes there for public view, then how about this, to satisfy your desire to go talk to a live person: You could say this: "Hi. Where can I find the city's municipal codes, laws, rules, etc... for public viewing?". Notice you haven't asked or mentioned "metal detecting" in that question (to avoid having it be interpretted as a "can I?" question left up to their moods and whims). Instead, when they answer your question, they'll be referring you to where that's available for public viewing. Ie.: at the library? At the police station front counter? Or they'll pull it out for you to look at right there? Or whatever. Because you see, no "laws" are ever "secret". They HAVE to be able to be "looked up". Lest .... how would anyone ever know what the laws are? How could you be in "trouble" for something, which you had no way to look up? Thus I'm pretty sure all public entities laws HAVE to be available for viewing somewhere, somehow. Once you get to that point, you can check for any mention of metal detecting or metal detectors, etc.... If you nothing that prohibits that, then presto, there you go. In that way, ... you ARE "totally sure".

Can you prove without a doubt that it will always result in some official saying no, thus resulting in a place where no one can hunt anymore?

No I can not. Asking will not *always* result in a "no". I have said this as such in the past. I don't deny that some people get "yes". And you don't deny that others get "no". And you don't deny that some of those "yes's" are totally arbitrary and whimsical, right? And you don't deny that even WITHOUT their "yes", that if they'd simply gone, perhaps no one ever approaches them to ask "who told you you could do this?" (ie.: they are never "carded", thus ... why was it even needed, if no one cared?) And you don't disagree that the next person's shift at that same desk might have said "no" (because they think you'll harm earthworms or whatever). Right? And THAT is what I don't want to be at the whims of, possible precluding myself from parks that I could otherwise hunt.

And likewise, you will admit that some of those "no's" were equally as whimsical, and could have occured at places where no one would ever have cared , and that locals have never had a problem before. Thus you're right: asking doesn't "always" result in a no. I guess we can debate numerical statistics of odds of each type answer, but as you can guess, that's next to impossible. Oh, and by the way, the mere fact of an a) "yes" or a b) "no" answer, to me, does not indicate that "gee, its' a good thing I asked". (thinking that the answer meant that now they either are a) "now I can detect nilly willy", or b) "gee, it's a good thing I asked, otherwise I could have been arrested". But seriously, did you really think that whomever you asked would say: "That's silly. Why are you asking me? There's no rules against it, so you don't need to ask". No. It never works like that. They will bestow on you their princely yes or no. Because, afterall, you asked, therefore it *must* need their princely sanction. In fact, the mere fact that you are asking, implies that it must be inherently wrong, or damaging, or something .... lest why would you be asking, if it were harmless and innocuous? This is not subconsciously lost on the person you are asking, thus lending to their ultimate answer (the "safe" answer).

This official told me no. I asked why and he said that ..... two hunters dug up holes everywhere, making a mess and threw their garbage right beside each hole..... In fact Tom, there were a few iffy public places (not typical parks) that I phoned in and got the same response.

To this I would say a few things. For starters, there are a lot of times when people will be told "no, because someone left holes before you". And maybe in your case, it had an actual case example. But oftentimes, they'll give that answer, when in fact, this is just their "go-to" answer, to justify the "no" they just gave you. Because let's face it, what's the connotation of detecting anyhow? HOLES. Might there have been an actual case where a policy became implemented? Sure. Notice I say "a policy". What I mean is, if you were to look at the particular city in your zoo example, is it actually "on the books" saying "no metal detectors" down at city hall in the muni code? Perhaps it isn't. But that's not to say that rank-&-file still can't have it as an interpretation of existing verbage. We all know that. Public officials ARE tasked with keeping order, and can indeed interpret statutes to broadly fit a myriad of circumstances that arise in the field. And thus it need not specifically say "no metal detectors", to boot people. But in those cases, you would need to be told, appraised, or whatever when/if they see you out there.

Example: there was a town near me that I had detected a certain park for decades. One day, a friend from across the state was in my area visiting, so I took him to this particular park. After about 30 minutes though (after already getting some silver and an IH), a park worker came over and gave us the boot. In a nice friendly way, we asked "why" and "since when" etc... He said that it's what his supervisor had told him, since someone had left holes at another park. And I asked "when did this policy start?" The man thought for a minute, and said "over a year ago". But oddly, I had detected this park multiple times in that past year. Doh! I must've been there on the days of the week where there was no lawn-mowing going on, etc.... So you see, by asking, I would not have had those multiple hunts in the meantime.

Oh, and by the way, a "telling" end to this particular example: When my buddy and I heard about the reason of "holes", we gleefully showed him right where we were all standing, that we were leaving no trace. The sympathetic gardener looked, and had to agree that we were doing no harm. Yet he said he was only passing on what he'd been told. However, he said this: "When I leave shift here, what I don't see, doesn't bother me". With that said, we asked "Great, what time do you get off work?" He said "5pm" with a wink . It was 4:45pm right then, so we merely went and sat on a picnic table for 15 min. At 5pm, sure enough, he got in his city park truck, and drove off. Whereupon we merely resumed detecting.

So I guess what I'm saying is: While that may have been "policy if you asked" those zoo people, yet I am of the opinion that a lot of times, even in cases like that, such answers are still only given out .... when you ask. Not saying "100%", but ..... just sayin'

 

[CoinHunterAZ]

So Tom...you would go ahead and detect an area even though you had full knowledge that was against policy? Did I miss something here? Personally I would feel "uneasy" about doing this, and therefore just wouldn't do it. I'd be constantly looking over my shoulder and be worrying about being caught. I like to hunt with a clear conscience.

 

[Jason in Enid]

eidt - never mind, I'm staying out of this before I say something and get a timeout.

 

[Silver Searcher]

I could be a tad jealous of you being able to walk out the door almost to play in the old dirt, I on the other hand I still have to fly some 8hrs to do it.

Not quite as easy as that my freind, there is still a lot of hard work to do, yea I don't have to fly..but do have to travel a bit, and gaining permission in a decent area is a nightmare.

I see you have a Celtic Stater for your Avarter.....which tribe is it from, and did you find it in the UK.

SS

 

[Tom_in_CA]

So Tom...you would go ahead and detect an area even though you had full knowledge that was against policy? Did I miss something here? Personally I would feel "uneasy" about doing this, and therefore just wouldn't do it. I'd be constantly looking over my shoulder and be worrying about being caught. I like to hunt with a clear conscience.

Jason, coin-hunterAZ is not necessarily "off the mark". It's a valid question.

Thus Jason, my answer is, that I would consider things like "policy" (or interpretation, or whatever we'll call it), to be something that someone is welcome to come up an "appraise you of". But that .... no.... I would not go "looking" for someone to give a policy or opinion. I would, instead, rely on actual specific rules (if something really actually said "no detecting"). If someone came out to appraise me of a policy, then yes, I would be obliged to give lip service and move on.

However, you tell me: what would you have done in the example I gave, wouldn't you too have simply waited till after 5pm (based on the city guy's wink wink) and just resumed? Perhaps not, that's your choice, as diff. people have diff.. caution levels.

Here's another example that could be called "policy", yet ... I think we could all agree.... could be relegated to "isolated incident" category:

Back in the very early 1970s, a guy I knew got booted from a particular school in a town 30 min. away from us, by a janitor. Not sure of the specifics of why (perhaps d/t perceived holes? Perhaps d/t school was in session? I dunno). Anyhow, the embarrassed apologetic md'r asked the janitor "how about the school down the street a few blocks away?" The janitor said "no, not there either". (perhaps he was in charge of both schools?). So the md'r thinks for a few moments and says "ok, how about the park downtown?". At this point the janitor was getting a little irked, and told the guy "you can't detect on any public grounds in this city".

The md'r slinked away and left. He promptly told his brother, who was also an md'r: "It's illegal to detect at any public school or park in such & such town". That other brother likewise passed this word to other md'rs he met (including me). No one questioned that. Afterall, how do you question a "duly appointed" city official afterall? I had no reason to question these other md'rs. Afterall, they were mentoring me (I was just a newbie), so what did I know?

However, fast forward to about 1980/81, (8 or 10 yrs. later) and a few guys in our club were coming in to the club meetings with choice silver coins (barbers, etc....), from a "secret spot". Afterawhile, I got their confidence up, and they let me in on their spot. It happened to be a certain park in the above mentioned city. I tagged along with them, and we all got our share of silver in that park, over the next year or so. Still though, the whole time, it was in the back of my mind "I thought detecting wasn't allowed here?" But no one ever bothered us, so .... oh well. A few years later, I was detecting with one of those brothers, and asked him "why did you say years ago, that such & such city is off-limits?" At first, the guy didn't even remember or know what I was talking about. But after some recollection, he said it was simply what he had been told by his brother. And that HE was simply going by what they'd been told, all those years earlier.

To this day (40 yrs. later), you can still detect to your heart's content there, and .... as long as you're not sticking out or being a nuisance (or running into a janitor having a bad day), you're most likely ignored. So you see then, "policy" is often time a nebulous arbitrary case-by-case thing, upon appraisal. Am I saying to argue with someone? No. But I am saying that sometimes things like that can be isolated, and don't necessarily mean it would ever happen again (if you gave it a rest, put a lot of time before your next hunt, and avoided "miss lookie lou" or "just that one park" or "just that one shift" etc... in the future.). But sure, don't be defiant in-the-moment, give lip service, etc..

Yes I understand this take on the "psychology" of this matter doesn't set well with some people. Some people would take a situation like that, and .... in their mind, it's equivalent to "law", and they would, as you say, feel like they need to be "looking over their shoulder", etc.. Heck, for that matter, it's gotten to no matter WHERE I hunt, I'm always conscious to be aware of potential busy-bodies or lookie-lous. (barring perhaps the beach). Because let's face it: we're in an odd hobby that draws lookie-lous and has connotations. If a person is "skittish", then by all means, stick to areas that are going to not have such issues.

 

[Native Floridian]

I have had people on forum tell me I shouldn't hunt the local beaches during the middle of the day because I might interfere with people enjoying the beach..... I resented it since my ancestors go back 4 generations in Florida, I was born and raised here, I pay lots of taxes to the local governments and ther eis no law against it on hte beaches I hunt......

If I want to hunt the beach in the middle of the 4th of July I do with no qualms about it at all.......

There is a reason to wait. That is, not wanting to draw unwanted negative attention to ourselves that could, in the end, result in ordinances limiting our hunting.

Money talks. And the money that talks loudest is the money from tourist who have paid thousands of dollars apiece to sit on our beaches. They are a 10,000 to one majority over us beach hunters. If we disturb enough of them, and enough complain, the city stake holders will take notice and then take action to restore calm. That action will be a negative for the minorty beach hunters.

Case in point - Personal Water Craft. The owners of these vehicles exibited a noone is going to tell me what to do attitude. The resulting invasive behavior shown by this group resulted in them being banned from many waterways. They are no longer allowed in some places and are restricted just about everywhere. For example they are banned from the San Juan islands and all the way across the country in NJ they are not allowed within 100 feet of Island Beach State Park. Similar restrictions are in effect all across the country. All because these individuals felt they had a right to disturb others while pursuing their own recreation. Unfortunately for them there were only so many stakeholders (homeowners/marina operators/boaters) to step on before those stake holders said enough! There is a lesson there for all of us.

For this reason, our groups heavily suggest that you make yourself as invisible as possible when hunting the beach. If it's crowded stay away from the towel line. Be aware of which way the wind is blowing so as not to get blown sand onto beach bathers and fill all your holes. Mostly, common sense - be a good neighbor.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

There is a reason to wait. That is, not wanting to draw unwanted negative attention to ourselves that could, in the end, result in ordinances limiting our hunting.

Money talks. And the money that talks loudest is the money from tourist who have paid thousands of dollars apiece to sit on our beaches. They are a 10,000 to one majority over us beach hunters. If we disturb enough of them, and enough complain, the city stake holders will take notice and then take action to restore calm. That action will be a negative for the minorty beach hunters.

Case in point - Personal Water Craft. The owners of these vehicles exibited a noone is going to tell me what to do attitude. The resulting invasive behavior shown by this group resulted in them being banned from many waterways. They are no longer allowed in some places and are restricted just about everywhere. For example they are banned from the San Juan islands and all the way across the country in NJ they are not allowed within 100 feet of Island Beach State Park. Similar restrictions are in effect all across the country. All because these individuals felt they had a right to disturb others while pursuing their own recreation. Unfortunately for them there were only so many stakeholders (homeowners/marina operators/boaters) to step on before those stake holders said enough! There is a lesson there for all of us.

For this reason, our groups heavily suggest that you make yourself as invisible as possible when hunting the beach. If it's crowded stay away from the towel line. Be aware of which way the wind is blowing so as not to get blown sand on to beach bathers and fill all your holes. Mostly, common sense - be a good neighbor.

Your welcome to wait all you want, I will hunt the beaches anytime I have the ability, many times for 6 to 8 hr stretches or longer in the tourist seasons when beaches are the busiest.....

There are no restrictions here on when metal detectorist can hunt our beaches, beaches are owned by the public. I have hunted our beaches for 7 years now with not one single confrontation or issue in those 7 years and I will continue to hunt as I have as do most of the hunters I know down here....

Police stop and talk fairly often and even ask us to look for lost reported jewelry which we do. I have no concerns at all about losing the ability to hunt, we are on good terms with the local businesses and beach patrol, they see the amount of trash we remove.....

 

[Native Floridian]

The point you're missing, as I see it, is that we shouldn't have to spend our time convincing the general public we should be able to practice our hobby. The way this country is set up is that you can do anything that doesn't hurt anybody else....period. No convincing, no arguing. Anybody that doesn't like it ....it's their problem, not ours. We don't live in a Democracy, for a reason. The majority isn't supposed to be able to control the minority, simply because they don't like them , or what they do, providing what they do isn't hurting anybody. That said, there are places we probably shouldn't make a fuss over...like state parks. They're set aside as a specially-maintained environment. But generally city parks are simply areas that have been left out of development to allow people to recreate, and enjoy some outdoor time...those shouldn't be off-limits, but often are, simply because some bureaucrat decided to outlaw metal detecting. I'm fortunate..I have lots of places to detect. But what about people stuck in a big city? And, it's that very environment where it would be nearly impossible to get a "No" changed to a yes. Freedom is a fragile thing. It's very hard to earn, and once-earned, it's very easy to lose. And, the first step to losing it is to start agreeing that the bureaucracy knows best....and the way you reinforce that belief is by asking permission for mundane behavior. Tom and I pretty much agree on this point. Sadly, the younger generation has become "normalized" to this behavior. If you don't have somebody's permission, you shouldn't do it. Really sad. Like the Navajo saying...."Bureaucrats are the kind of people who tell the sheep which weed to eat". We should resist them every chance we get. If we want to keep our freedom.
Jim

IMO, it's always better to ask for forgiveness than permission when hunting on unsigned public property. That said i don't see our freedom being threatened by those asking for permission. I see it threatened by those who abuse the property. Those who don't fill holes or turn grassy areas into muddy pock marked fields. In those situations i get why John Q Public is pissed off at us. And, i get why the fist of local government comes down like a 20 ton hammer.

Who hunts foreclosed properties? Why does anyone think that's OK? Bank owned or not, scumbag owned or not, it's still private property. In my book that's like cheating your insurance company on a claim just because they've got deep pockets and nobody likes them. Stealling is stealing. Cheating is cheating. Trespassing is tresspassing. The owner's likability and financial worth have nothing to do with it.

 

[Native Floridian]

Your welcome to wait all you want, I will hunt the beaches anytime I have the ability, many times for 6 to 8 hr stretches or longer in the tourist seasons when beaches are the busiest.....

There are no restrictions here on when metal detectorist can hunt our beaches, beaches are owned by the public. I have hunted our beaches for 7 years now with not one single confrontation or issue in those 7 years and I will continue to hunt as I have as do most of the hunters I know down here....

Police stop and talk fairly often and even ask us to look for lost reported jewelry which we do. I have no concerns at all about losing the ability to hunt, we are on good terms with the local businesses and beach patrol, they see the amount of trash we remove.....

There are no restrictions on the Jersey beaches either. I think we're talking two different situations here. I hunt SW Fl all the time and note that other than a couple weeks out of the year the beaches are not nearly as jammed with people as Jersey's beaches. On FL beaches it is usually possible to wiggle yourself between beach bathers without making a PIA out of yourself. There is enough room to hunt and dig without disturbing those nearby. Jersey, at least the southern beaches from AC south that's not the story. These are big beaches where you would think no problem hunting whenever you want. But they are jammed with beach bathers. So the question of how smart it is to hunt the towel line during peak hours isn't even on the table. It's just too crowded. Still, there are those who try. And it to those who don't get it that we "Suggest" that hunting down by the water is a better way to go until things start to clear out.

Of course we too are are good terms with the local PD, and beach patrol. But that is because of our good behavior.

That said, i doubt you are missing much by waiting a few hours. if 3/4 of the beach is covered by beach bathers there will be much territory to cover when things open up.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

There are no restrictions on the Jersey beaches either. I think we're talking two different situations here. I hunt SW Fl all the time and note that other than a couple weeks out of the year the beaches are not nearly as jammed with people as Jersey's beaches. On FL beaches it is usually possible to wiggle yourself between beach bathers without making a PIA out of yourself. There is enough room to hunt and dig without disturbing those nearby. Jersey, at least the southern beaches from AC south that's not the story. These are big beaches where you would think no problem hunting whenever you want. But they are jammed with beach bathers. So the question of how smart it is to hunt the towel line during peak hours isn't even on the table. It's just too crowded. Still, there are those who try. And it to those who don't get it that we "Suggest" that hunting down by the water is a better way to go until things start to clear out.

Of course we too are are good terms with the local PD, and beach patrol. But that is because of our good behavior.

That said, i doubt you are missing much by waiting a few hours. if 3/4 of the beach is covered by beach bathers there will be much territory to cover when things open up.

I only hunt towel line if either a sudden rain storm pops up or its after dark, other wise I'm hunting the wet sand or in the water....

I hunt beaches all over Fla from south beach to daytona, west to Clearwater and south to Sarasota...In summer time they are so packed there isn't a single parking spot, and easily over 10,000 beach goers just at Daytona beach area.....