The greatest threat to our hobby (long post)

[Muddyhandz]

Its a lot easier to get forgiveness than permission.

Welcome to the forum!

Did you know that you just used the new official T-Net phrase?

It represents this forum really well and I think they should place this phrase right above the banner spot on the home page.

You'll fit in quite well around here!

Cheers,
Dave.

 

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[Muddyhandz]

I have had 4 & 5 day gold ring finds with melt value over $1000 hunting those crowded beaches so hunting them crowded is not an issue for me at all, I do it all the time. Waiting till beach goers had left odds are i would not have found half of them....

I dont hunt lunch money, I hunt for lost gold but I will pick up all the coins I find, one day they will buy me a new detector, last count that lunch money coin collection was almost. $700.00.......

I grew up in a different land than you. The locals around here always go early in the morning or later on when people clear out.

The reasoning behind this is that hundreds of people daily (during the crowded time) will see detectorists out there in a frenzy and it will remind them to take off their jewelry and empty their pockets. Unless of coarse you have an invisible stealth detector. Think about it. Those 7 years of crowded beach hunting made people wiser to loosing stuff.
Just my two cents.

 

[wingmaster]

No love here for bank owned property as they don't pay any city taxes on the property or are they even made to keep the grass cut like everyone else has to do. HH

 

[Muddyhandz]

Im not trying to get under your skin, just giving my opinion, like you.When someone posts something and they dont get the responses they want, they blow up and get an attitude. Metal detect how and where you want to, everyone has to make their own choices. Sounds like you want everyone to follow your lead and do what you do.Just because you dont hunt school yards and crowded beaches, that doesnt make it wrong.I never said I justify trespassing...I said the guy that hunted the bank foreclosed property was no worse than the people that dont turn their finds over to the police. Sorry you didnt get the support you were looking for...dont take it personal...everyone has different opinions, it doesnt mean they are against you.

To be honest, I'm not upset at all about the thread I started. It is what it is.
The attitude that I have is simply a loss of respect for this forum. The growing mentality is to disregard the law and that reflects us all.
I didn't post here for support. I got what I was looking for....... a confirmation.
If you sense an attitude from me that's because I never liked you from the start.
No worries. I won't start anything unruly here.
I'm still a polite, well spoken, law abiding Canadian.

 

[Muddyhandz]

Thanks for starting this thread backup the grounds still froze here

That day I wrote this long post it was snowing and deposited another 6 inches.
Also the temperature has been -15 below seasonal for a week now and NOTHING is melting!
Gonna be a late spring.

 

[lookindown]

I like to hunt when there are people around. I get asked questions all day by curious people and I try to give them a little education on what our hobby is about. When they walk off I feel like they look at me in a different light than they did before. So just maybe we are so misunderstood because most detectorist keep away from the general public, while everyone else does their activities together...think about that...why do even people that detect think our hobby is different than anyone elses...maybe people look at us differently because they dont understand our hobby...I like talking to people and they dont bother me with their questions...I guess some dectorist just arent very sociable.

 

[Rawhide]

This post borders on a joke. Its your park too, take care of it. I used to visit State Parks every weekend. I bought a annual pass and paid many hundreds, yes hundreds of dollars for this privilege. The local businesses also seen hundreds if not thousands of dollars from me and my family. Then I read the rules/laws concerning State Parks. No metal detecting is allowed at all. Im not the only one who quit going to State Parks here in my state. The Parks are going Bankrupt. As I drive by some of the State Parks onto free BLM land you will see empty campgrounds. I say don't go to the park. There is sooo many other places you can go, why worry about it. My city requires a free permit that applies to all city parks. So Im covered here. I even get tips from the grounds keepers of places to go. I really have a hard time with this thread. I do wish you all the best of luck and understand there is nothing like being uncomfortable when detecting. I would ask folks to look at what they can do, not what they can't do. Yes I think it is a shame if you can not hunt in your park.

 

[lookindown]

To be honest, I'm not upset at all about the thread I started. It is what it is.
The attitude that I have is simply a loss of respect for this forum. The growing mentality is to disregard the law and that reflects us all.
I didn't post here for support. I got what I was looking for....... a confirmation.
If you sense an attitude from me that's because I never liked you from the start.
No worries. I won't start anything unruly here.
I'm still a polite, well spoken, law abiding Canadian.

I got nothing against you Muddhanz...we need to all work on being polite, well spoken law abiding citizens just like you...then you can like us all and we can be one big happy family...my goal is to one day be as good you are.

 

[TreasurePirate69]

So we lose because we roll over for the bureaucrats, and their senseless laws, or we lose the sport through defiance. Thanks for the opinion, but I'll take defiance. Now that said, I don't hunt golf courses....too much potential flack for digging. Also cemeteries are out, moral reasons. Each person should to use a reasonable degree of judgement. People won't obey immoral laws...that's why Prohibition didn't work, and the war on drugs isn't working. Same can be said for many of the NO's we get if asking about metal-detecting. If it makes sense, no problem. But, when it's done simply because the person doing the deciding wants to exercise their power...than no....I'll do what I want, providing it isn't hurting anyone else.
Jim

This is the typical binary argument that Tom seems to like to use. You imply we have only two options: roll over for the bureaucrats, and their senseless laws, or we lose the sport through defiance. If those were the only two options then you might actually have a point. But those are NOT the only two options. And thus, your argument is invalid.

This is how so many people try to argue their position. They give you two choices: one that you would never want to choose, and their position. They expect you to side with them because after all, no one would pick that other position given how terrible it is. The only problem is that there are almost always more than just two positions. Anyone falling for this old trick needs a lesson in logic and debate.

 

[TreasurePirate69]

By the way, Tom has NOT shown that asking for permission is bad. He continuously twists the argument and talks out of both sides of his mouth to try and prove his point. His logic is severely flawed. But unlike Tom I will not hijack your thread to argue against him. If he wants to create his OWN thread then that would be something I would consider joining (if he wants my opinion). Frankly, I think it is high time someone calls him on his constant hijacking of every thread out here even remotely related to permission. It is rude, annoying, and does not help the hobby. As I've said many times now, you can't come out to this forum and not trip over his damn soap box everywhere.

As for this thread, I completely agree with what you are saying. What we say out here is just as dangerous as what we do in the field.

I will add one more thought: If what you are doing causes other people in your hobby to look down upon you, how in the heck can you expect people outside of the hobby not to do the same? Think about it.

 

[lookindown]

Whats right for one person may not be right for the next...you dont honestly believe your right about everything do you? I have strong opinions but I know they are not all right...but they are right for ME.

 

[Joe hunter]

That day I wrote this long post it was snowing and deposited another 6 inches.
Also the temperature has been -15 below seasonal for a week now and NOTHING is melting!
Gonna be a late spring.

Two weeks ago my son and I went 1 day we could only dig down about 2 inches in our field but he found his first Indian head it hasn't
Stopped snowing since we're back to almost three feet (I love NY)

 

[TreasurePirate69]

Whats right for one person may not be right for the next...you dont honestly believe your right about everything do you? I have strong opinions but I know they are not all right...but they are right for ME.

I absolutely do not believe I am always right. One of the biggest differences though between me and many other Internet forum posters is that if I actually have been proven to be wrong, I will admit it. I have no reason to try and save face on a completely anonymous Internet forum.

 

[TreasurDiggrNY]

TreasurDiggr,

Tom is not telling anyone to break the laws, he advocates not calling someone to hunt public property, there is a big difference..... I do not call and ask any public offical if I can hunt so and so public property, I research the laws myself, and if there is no law saying no, then I hunt it, I do NOT call and ask permission of local political officals just like I do not call and ask if I can throw a frisbee or paly with a dog in the park........

I know 99% of homeowners do NOT own the easements, they maintain them but they are owned by the city, counties and state. I worked for a utility company for 16 years locating lines on easements, most are not privately owned..... There are some private easements, most are owned by the railroads.....


Reminder to all, remember our rules on attacking members, I DO......

Hey TH, what's your take on this thread here? specifically post numbers 1,6,8.9 and 21. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/general-discussion/338921-da-rules.html

Great you know the laws by you, not everyone does, especially new detectorists. We're not talking about calling political officials and you know it(I hope)What's wrong and so scary about calling the parks department or town hall? You're just afraid they'll say no. So what if they say you can't hunt a certain park or piece of property big deal, hunt somewhere else, change the law, we did it in NY.

The throwing a Frisbee analogy is getting old, your Tom is showing. Throwing a Frisbee and detecting are two different animals. How do you compare throwing a Frisbee to a newbie digging up beer cans/ craters on a manicured lawn in the middle of the town park. The latter is what you get when you push/promote fear of asking for permission or come right out and tell newbies to just go hunt if there's no sign and THAT is what gets parks shut down and laws passed banning our hobby.

 

[TreasurePirate69]

Yes, the throwing a frisbee analogy is very old and just plain wrong. How many nosey old ladies call the cops each week because they see someone throwing a frisbee? How many teenagers harrass frisbee throwers by throwing pennies in front of them and yelling at them to get a real job? How many times have park personnel turned down someone who called to find out if throwing a frisbee was allowed?

Like another recent thread pointed out, some people look down on our hobby (and for good reasons). Is it fair? No. But life is not fair. As much as we want to think that metal detecting is just like throwing a frisbee, it simply is NOT. Trying to imply that they should be treated equally is either showing how naive the poster is, or how sneaky they are trying to be.

 

[Jim in Idaho]

This is the typical binary argument that Tom seems to like to use. You imply we have only two options: roll over for the bureaucrats, and their senseless laws, or we lose the sport through defiance. If those were the only two options then you might actually have a point. But those are NOT the only two options. And thus, your argument is invalid.

This is how so many people try to argue their position. They give you two choices: one that you would never want to choose, and their position. They expect you to side with them because after all, no one would pick that other position given how terrible it is. The only problem is that there are almost always more than just two positions. Anyone falling for this old trick needs a lesson in logic and debate.

So, let's hear the options...I can learn something new.
Jim

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Treasurepirate69, please do not grow weary in posting. I do welcome your logic, and you do a much better job that some, in support of your stance. I hope you will continue to post, to un-ravel the logic. I can tell you are being very careful reader, to try to see through any "sleight of hand" and "logic that does not logically follow". I too will/am trying to do the same, to see if I've failed some spot, given a bad reasoning, etc...

Ok, with that said:

....What's wrong and so scary about calling the parks department or town hall? You're just afraid they'll say no. So what if they say you can't hunt a certain park or piece of property big deal, hunt somewhere else....

You say no big deal, and to go just "hunt somewhere else"? Then how do you deal with this scenario: Let's say you did just that: went and asked and got a "no". Then here's what potentially happens: That same desk clerk or park dept. person, or ranger, or whomoever gave you that "no", will start booting others, whom perhaps he'd never have paid a moment's notice to. You know, the psychology of seeing an md'r, remembering the earlier inquiry, and thinking: "hey look, there's one of THEM", and starts booting others. I've seen this happen before. So the danger then becomes, you've effectively put a place off-limits, which never actually had a problem before. I've seen this happen, and can give you examples (don't tempt me) on city, county, and state levels. Remember, this is only for places with no specific disallowance.

change the law, we did it in NY.....

For purposes of this discussion, let's assume we're not talking places with no actual rule saying such a thing as "no metal detectors". If there were such a rule, then sure, do as you did in NY and change it. Thus NY example doesn't apply to this discussion, because in that case, there was a "specific" rule.

Throwing a Frisbee and detecting are two different animals. How do you compare throwing a Frisbee to a newbie digging up beer cans/ craters on a manicured lawn in the middle of the town park.

Do you leave craters on manicured lawns in the middle the town park? If so, then by all means ask away. But me, no, I (and I suspect most other md'rs here) don't "leave craters".

tell newbies to just go hunt if there's no sign and THAT is what gets parks shut down and laws passed banning our hobby.

Well, for starters, I have acknowledged that it can be more thorough checking that "just the wooden sign at the park entrance". I am fully aware that some things may be "on the books" down at city hall, and that the sign at the park might not have every single municipal law. But a person can avail himself of city muni rules quite easily. They're available for public viewing. Why can't a person check with those, to see if "metal detectors" are listed amongst possible prohbitions? Thus, yes I tell newbies that their obligation ends there, and that yes, they need not have to ask "can I metal detect", if there were nothing saying they couldn't. You think that leads to laws passed banning our hobby? What do you think then of the examples of "laws being passed to ban our hobby" that had their genesis in people bringing up the can I questions? Do you want me to link you with some examples of that? (I can if you like ) In a lot of cases, there were and are actually cases of laws being implemented/drafted, or at a minimum "policies made by interpretation", with a net effect of "no". And oddly, those places have often been places that never had a problem, before people(s) took it upon themselves, to go down and ask "can I?" type questions.

Treasurepirate69, I do not doubt that there have been newbies, who have dug craters, stick out like a sore thumb, and are a general pain-in-the-b*tt, which got a place "put off limits". And I have no doubt that there has even perhaps been some of those SAME persons who deduced that they could do what they did, simply because "Tom in CA made a post telling them to go ahead". However, in each and every one of those cases, there simply had to be some mitigating circumstance. Because I've gone on record each time as saying that this does not mean we don't still need to use "due discretion" "good timing", "leave no trace", "don't stick out", "you can't go waltzing over archies beach blankets SIMPLY because there's no law saying you can't", etc.....

I have to admit, when I post my soap-box veiw, I DO INDEED have the same image that you do sometimes: geeks with shovels ruining it, because they go an inopportune times, scaring kids, sticking out like a sore thumb, spending forever at each hole because they're inexperienced with pinpointing. And continually nervously looking over their shoulder because they feel conspicuous (thus only ATTRACTING the very attention and scrutiny they wish to avoid). Those are all such things that a long-time park hunters knows how to "blend in", "not stick out", and pick the right times to hunt, be quick on retrievals at opportune times, etc.... So I do sympathize with your mental image (yes I've seen it happen) of the things that can occur.

You imply we have only two options: roll over for the bureaucrats, and their senseless laws, or we lose the sport through defiance. If those were the only two options then you might actually have a point. But those are NOT the only two options. And thus, your argument is invalid.

Hmmm, this statement assumes there is a "senseless law" saying "no metal detectors" right? Well if that's the case, then no, we do not "defy" (and simply go to places with laws saying "no metal detectors"). That's NOT what I'm saying. I'm not talking about those places. I'm talking about places with no specific verbage. Ie.: silent on the subject (barring something someone could morph to apply, if you came to them with your "pressing question"). So, no, I'm not giving those out as "2 options", because I'm not talking about places with rules that actually say "no metal detectors."

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Hey TH, what's your take on this thread here? specifically post numbers 1,6,8.9 and 21. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/general-discussion/338921-da-rules.html

Great you know the laws by you, not everyone does, especially new detectorists. We're not talking about calling political officials and you know it(I hope)What's wrong and so scary about calling the parks department or town hall? You're just afraid they'll say no. So what if they say you can't hunt a certain park or piece of property big deal, hunt somewhere else, change the law, we did it in NY.

The throwing a Frisbee analogy is getting old, your Tom is showing. Throwing a Frisbee and detecting are two different animals. How do you compare throwing a Frisbee to a newbie digging up beer cans/ craters on a manicured lawn in the middle of the town park. The latter is what you get when you push/promote fear of asking for permission or come right out and tell newbies to just go hunt if there's no sign and THAT is what gets parks shut down and laws passed banning our hobby.

Why do I need to call someone, I don't need to call townhall, police department or parks department, I have a computer and I can look up the laws for every city and county park that I want to hunt so why would I call someone. I know the laws when I hunt, in 7 years I have never been hassled.... I have said many times to learn to dig a hole so no one can ever tell you were there when your done, I learned to, I have also said practice on your own lawn first before you go to a park......

I have had park officals watch me recover a target then turn and walk off with not a word to me, when I am done you can not see any holes I have left..... When I hunt city parks I use a 3/4 " and 1 1/4 mini digger and a 12 inch probe along with my detectorpro uniprobe, I do not cut plugs, I cut a slit, remove target and pinch the slit back, no dead grass, no gopher holes, no craters........

My detecting parks is no different than throwing a freesbie, playing football, playing with a dog or any other activity you do in a public park. I have as much right there as anyone, if you feel you need to call someone to get permission to hunt a park be my guest, I don't need to..............

 

[lookindown]

Tom you use a lot of common sense and you never insult anyone on TNET...they should give you the same respect...most of us get what your saying.

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Yes, the throwing a frisbee analogy is very old and just plain wrong. How many nosey old ladies call the cops each week because they see someone throwing a frisbee? How many teenagers harrass frisbee throwers by throwing pennies in front of them and yelling at them to get a real job? How many times have park personnel turned down someone who called to find out if throwing a frisbee was allowed?

Like another recent thread pointed out, some people look down on our hobby (and for good reasons). Is it fair? No. But life is not fair. As much as we want to think that metal detecting is just like throwing a frisbee, it simply is NOT. Trying to imply that they should be treated equally is either showing how naive the poster is, or how sneaky they are trying to be.

The point you're missing, as I see it, is that we shouldn't have to spend our time convincing the general public we should be able to practice our hobby. The way this country is set up is that you can do anything that doesn't hurt anybody else....period. No convincing, no arguing. Anybody that doesn't like it ....it's their problem, not ours. We don't live in a Democracy, for a reason. The majority isn't supposed to be able to control the minority, simply because they don't like them , or what they do, providing what they do isn't hurting anybody. That said, there are places we probably shouldn't make a fuss over...like state parks. They're set aside as a specially-maintained environment. But generally city parks are simply areas that have been left out of development to allow people to recreate, and enjoy some outdoor time...those shouldn't be off-limits, but often are, simply because some bureaucrat decided to outlaw metal detecting. I'm fortunate..I have lots of places to detect. But what about people stuck in a big city? And, it's that very environment where it would be nearly impossible to get a "No" changed to a yes. Freedom is a fragile thing. It's very hard to earn, and once-earned, it's very easy to lose. And, the first step to losing it is to start agreeing that the bureaucracy knows best....and the way you reinforce that belief is by asking permission for mundane behavior. Tom and I pretty much agree on this point. Sadly, the younger generation has become "normalized" to this behavior. If you don't have somebody's permission, you shouldn't do it. Really sad. Like the Navajo saying...."Bureaucrats are the kind of people who tell the sheep which weed to eat". We should resist them every chance we get. If we want to keep our freedom.
Jim