the great debate

[bomber]

wow,hope i didn't cause any hard feelings with anybody here,like i said just wanted 2 throw it out there and c were people stood.thanks everybody,i think were done

 

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[Dave N Japan]

This makes me feel bad about going onto the golf course when I was a kid (back in the good old days) and feeling through the mud to get golf balls to sell back to the golfers!!

Anybody hunt old city bottle dumps? Do you need permission to do that now? I use to do that too when I was a kid along with my brother and never even thought of it being wrong.

Anyway, times have changed! Now I will go get into the mustang and go speeding! Hope I don't get caught or killed!

 

[JakePhelps]

If its federal, state, or some large company i dislike, i go for it, but private property of people like us its definetly not right, unless its just woods and you dont know who owns it.

 

[backitup83]

Speaking off golf balls. I don't want to start a trend here. But, when I was stationed in Orlando Florida in the late 70s.I lived on the annex which had a golf course. I could never do this, but he(a friend) would put his Detector in the golf bag and when on the greens hunt coins. He didn't know a lick about golf but would come back with a double handfull of Mercs. Seems people put down a dime to mark there ball spot between turns, and of course lose some too. I'm told they still do that today. Did I mention the course has been around for awhile. Was it wrong for him to do that? I don't know. Could I do it? No. Do I look down on him for it?No. Would I do what TinPan did. I guess you will never know until I cross that line. But I don't look down on him for that. When I dig in my back yard tuning and practicing with my detector my dogs come behind me and dig up my holes after I cover them up those darn spoiled dogs get me in trouble ever time. Do I believe if I leave one hole uncovered I hurt our hobby?No. Does one person jumping a fence to recover what is going to be covered up anyway hurt our hobby? I don't think so, but that is what is so great about the United States Of America. I can think that way, just as you can think your way. I don't judge you or TinPan. That is what the judicial system is for. Checks and balances. This site Rocks.
So we are all grown-ups here, The bottom line is you have to be ready to deal with the re-action to your actions.
Mike

 

[ZumbroKid]

If i ever got caught on a place and got thrown in jail, it would be:
A. family reunion!
B. The least amount of time i ever sat
C. The first time a cop was not parked at the donut shop all night!

 

[The Beep Goes On]

Without a doubt, condoning theft and violation of property rights seems to be prevalent on this site.

If you do the math, this statement holds true for this thread, as well as the "Jumped Over the Fence" thread

You may be right, but look at all the people who did not jump into these threads. Maybe the risk takers like to blow their horn, but I think most prefer to distance themselves from this type of discourse.

TBGO

 

[EarthWalker]

Well, I myself wouldn't jump to conclusions about anyone. whats funny he only said "he asked some guy at the site".
My question would be, who is this guy? Was he a standard worker? Was he the main contractor leader?
If I wanted to really get onto a commercial site so to speak. I would make sure I asked the top-most dog I could.
Also, were there signs posted?
Albeit private lands/homeowners is something I would entirely respect, but in the sense of more public lands, I personally question who is subjecting an area to Mding or not. If a local Ranger said I couldn't , I would honestly go over his head to the main office and make an appointment to speak with the head Ranger about it. Don't take anyones word by phone either. Go in person.
But there is always the perspective "I do what I want to do, until somebody says something"

 

[jeff of pa]

. If a local Ranger said I couldn't , I would honestly go over his head to the main office and make an appointment to speak with the head Ranger about it. Don't take anyones word by phone either. Go in person.

Intresting you would say that.

I pulled a Cop over one day in one town, and asked about hunting the Town Square. He said "No, Nobody in this town will Give you Permission to do that." after a Short Conversation with him, I asked IF he minded If I go over his head, and asked who that would be.
He sent me to Borough Hall, where they Happly gave me permission
there is almost always someone in the line of "command" (for lack of a better word at the moment), who will say "yes", or at the very least,
"I can't give you permission, because of Liability, but what you do on your own is OK".

However, You must, in my opinion start at the bottom
when possable, or you have No head to go over

One Exception to taking the "Underlings" Go-ahead, I have had kids walk up to me and in our conversation say, "You can come and hunt my yard"
the first time this happend, for one second, I almost took him up on it. . but then common sense kicked in. Can you Imagine the Reaction of his Parents

 

[stefen]

This topic was posted to elicit various positions on the subject of 'Trespass'.

Obviously, it was not meant to be a forum topic for name calling or personal attacks.

The responses on this topic does provide an eye-opening commentary of the morals and ethics as to how people view the rights of others.

 

[tinpan]

hi every one.just want to bring to your attention that i have recieved messages from people from other countrys and they have concerns about the this legal issue.each country has its own laws and legal system and they feel offended at the fact that some of my critics presume that the law is the same as yours and make statements as such without having any knowledge or are qualified to do so.mding has also got its own critics {e.g nature groups} and they don't like what we do and its makes no difference how we conduct ourselves they will allways oppose us.i wish i had used a little tact when i made the first post and have learned a lot over past few days.i think if you go through life making statement about people as such you will be the one in court facing a law suit. i'm not justify or have the intent to offend just mentioning others concerns. thanks tinpan

 

[Monty]

I waited quite a while before getting in on this. I think there are some good points made here by both sides and I don't see any name calling or anything offensive. I personally would not dare to take anything from the site without permission but that's just me. I guess it's about my background, upbringing and what values were instilled in me while I was growing up? I was reared poor but didn't know it. My family had to work so hard for anything we got that we felt very deeply offended if something of ours was taken. We kids were taught that everything belongs to someone and we had no right to take it. No, I never had to walk a mile to school in the snow without shoes, uphill all the way, but the fifties was tough on us.
In another vein, I have worked very close with demolition contractors while in the employment of City government. Before anything was torn down they always did a last minute walk through to make sure no homeless were inside or anything of value was being destroyed. I'm sure the contractors found things of value sometimes and took them as part of their salvage rights. On the other hand the City workers who facilitated the demolition were obligated to recover anything of value left behind and turn it in as found property and to hold for the owner. If no one claimed it within 90 days it was sold at auction, the proceeds going to the City. Some would say that was wrong, but that's how the system worked. Also, the structure was condemned and posted no trespassing and anyone unauthorized caught in there was subject to arrest. A few were arrested.
Anyway that is a little insight as to how the demolition process worked at least in my City and state. The process itself was governed by state law. So that's my two cents for what it's worth. Monty

 

[ZumbroKid]

There read montys post the proper procedure with found items is to turn it in as property found! You must file a claim with the city. If no ones claims it in 90 days it is yours. How the system works. Otherwise it is the local goverments. Monty is a retired policeman so he knows the laws. There many have now done something wrong (me too). I am surprised to see someone finnaly post this simple fact on found items. When ever i posted this in the past it just gets over looked. This post has took a sudden turn in Tinpans favor. Too Funny!

 

[ZumbroKid]

I waited quite a while before getting in on this. I think there are some good points made here by both sides and I don't see any name calling or anything offensive. I personally would not dare to take anything from the site without permission but that's just me. I guess it's about my background, upbringing and what values were instilled in me while I was growing up? I was reared poor but didn't know it. My family had to work so hard for anything we got that we felt very deeply offended if something of ours was taken. We kids were taught that everything belongs to someone and we had no right to take it. No, I never had to walk a mile to school in the snow without shoes, uphill all the way, but the fifties was tough on us.
In another vein, I have worked very close with demolition contractors while in the employment of City government. Before anything was torn down they always did a last minute walk through to make sure no homeless were inside or anything of value was being destroyed. I'm sure the contractors found things of value sometimes and took them as part of their salvage rights. On the other hand the City workers who facilitated the demolition were obligated to recover anything of value left behind and turn it in as found property and to hold for the owner. If no one claimed it within 90 days it was sold at auction, the proceeds going to the City. Some would say that was wrong, but that's how the system worked. Also, the structure was condemned and posted no trespassing and anyone unauthorized caught in there was subject to arrest. A few were arrested.
Anyway that is a little insight as to how the demolition process worked at least in my City and state. The process itself was governed by state law. So that's my two cents for what it's worth. Monty

Read her close, the proof is in the pudding.

 

[tinpan]

i'm not justifing theres more facts i forgot to mention.the person i asked was the one putting up the fence, it was late in the day nearly home time, he had little interest in what i was saying.he seemed more interested in going home.the fence was one off those orange plastic types about a metre high supported by star pickets, he hadn't done a very good job putting it up and if the work safe people had seen this he could have been fined and there was no signs of any type and i reckon the fence would have fallen over if the wind had picked up.i was also told today that others had been there taking bits of wood and bricks and if anyone was that concerned the police would have come but they didn't.at the end of the day I YES ME WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT WAS THERE.

tinpan

 

[tinpan]

hi swr in the world we live what you say doesnot apply when two countrys have a claim to something, disreguard to who it belongs too. one will say no and the other will send an army to to take it and when say all sorts of reasons for doing so.but the country that said no have the right to say no.over the years i have had been told no by people who had no right to when i have been mding in places that i was allowed .i do fill in my holes and i donot like somethings that mders allowed to do but remember i can't make a view because i dont live there or have not a full understanding.

tinpan thanks

 

[nevrdundetecting]

i've never detected a place that was posted "no trespassing"....however, i have went on private property that wasn't posted....this one old cabin site in particular is about 2 miles from where i lived for 20 years, I knew that the man across the street didn't own it and I never did see anyone there during the 20 years that I lived there and it wasn't posted, so i detected there about 3 separate times.....the last time that i went, about 2 months ago, someone parked beside the road, got out of their car and started walking toward me and the cabin, i said hello...they were nice and asked me what I was doing there....i told them that i was metal detecting and asked if they wanted me to leave, to which they replied "no, not if you are just metal detecting".....they were more concerned with all the trees that had been cut down in the past 6 months, they asked me if I did it...i was like "no, i think it was the electric company" because the path of tree destruction followed the power lines through the valley...they were pissed about that but realized i was right......just thought I would share this story as it kinda pertains to the debate i guess

it was just too hard to resist this place....what are the laws about going onto private property that isn't posted

 

[grizzly bare]

Never,
can't speak about the laws in all states, but in Virginia if there is not a "No Trespassing" sign or a locked fence then it is okay to be on the property. As far as digging and taking anything I just don't know, but it seems pretty dangerous.

grizzly bare

 

[jeff of pa]

what are the laws about going onto private property that isn't posted

I posted somewhere how this is Treated in My area, However
all areas may be different.

I.M.H.O.

If I ownd land and didn't have it posted, it is my Fault
if someone goes on it. not theirs. as there is some areas aroud here
where nobody owns.However IF they took it upon themselves to Build on it,
I'd wait till their Finished and Take Possession of what they built


in fact, there are some areas where their are
homes where the people don't even need to pay taxes.
the homes have been taken as Squatters rights.
some Actually on Rail Road land. But Do not exist on paper.
even tho they have electric & Phone.
My one Friend lives on one Given to Distant Relatives,
on a 99 year lease. it has gone empty several times since the 1800's
and squatted in by whoever.
There is also a Mountain side, where people are building homes,
where they don't need to even ask first & don't pay taxes.
The Jealous people were trying to close the Loophole
I Don't know if they ever were able. I just remember the Original Write-up in the 90's about it.

My point, some people don't know how to research, and IF they don't see a sign saying who owns it, or NO TRESPASSING, they take for granted it's PUBLIC ACCESS

 

[Born2Dtect]

The best policy is to respect No Tresspassing signs. The no permission because of liability is another story. I fish a couple of areas that you connot get permission to be on. The owner did this because of over zealous law suits and (patuey!) Lawyers. Everyone goes on these properties to fish and he does not care. It actually works.

If you look at the great debate as a question of law, no means no. If it is a question of personal values then it is to each his own.

Just remember that your actions reflect on others and what you really need to ask yourself is, Is the reward worth the chances?

We are our own guides. So be it.

Ed Donovan

 

[Monty]

Trespass onto private property that is not posted is another matter in my state and there are several dos and don'ts. I can't possibly post all of them here nor can I even remember all of them but I once had them memorized. It makes a difference if it is occupied or not occupied, and to some extent it matters for the reason you're there. Property with an occupied dwelling doesn't have to be posted in accordance with the national Right to Privacy Act. Unoccupied property with the intent to pursue wild game, you need permission. Emergency health and safety situations do not require permission, (IE: hazardous chemical spill, etc.). Pursuit of an escaping felon, no permission required. Hot pursuit on an escaping misdemeanor, no permission required. Removing flora and fauna requires permission. Metal detecting parse is not forbidden, but removing anything from the property valued at less than $50.00 without owner consent is a misdemeanor, and property removed over $50.00 in value is a felony. Believe it or not a door to door salesman is allowed on any part of the property that is ordinarily open to trespass such as a mailman, home deliveries, etc. This includes places like front door stoops or steps, sidewalks leading to a main entrance, screened in porches where the main entry is inside the porch, etc. That's about all I can recall off the top of my head, but there are others. I think the gist of it is just about any place on private property is off limits to metal detecting without owner permission. Many of these don'ts are case law instead of ordinances or statutes. Many states have similar laws on the books, some more strict and some more lax, you'll just have to check with enforcement in your jurisdiction. Hope this helps. Monty