The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[azdave35]

Good to see that so many folks have taken to this thread for the purpose that it was intended for, namely sharing, asking, enquiring and reflecting on the Apache.

Some solid pictures, personal stories and details on such wonderful and historic locations and anecdotes from bygone local pivotal moments and events.

Injunbro is a revelation and, thankfully, is not one of those moody sorts who think that they are the story as oppose to the actual people or history we are discussing and debating.

Looking at the super pictures posted, it is pretty easy to try and transpose oneself into a distant time and imagine those who lived in those remarkable years.

To date, we've established that the Apache could whip the Yaqui whilst on their worst day and the opposition were at their best; the Apache it is fair to say had a pretty harsh experience and under the circumstances were fairly restrained in their responses; there was extreme unpleasantness on all sides; the Mexicans were bystanders and really no match for the Chiricahua and there is still backward, whitey ignoramus' in Arizona...perhaps they should be the first port of call for the raiding party!!

The Southwest, what a still wonderful part of the planet...


IPUK

 

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[markmar]

Injunbro

I will keep the " Marius Ighaa`bijaiilah " . I like it , thank you . I have not problem with my aspect .
Now , I would like to translate for me , my old nickname " Snake Kaa " . Is a character from The Jungle Book .
See at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaa

 

[Interested Party in UK]

True to form; Hilly-Billy-Bob (Or is it Hilly-Billy-Ray ?) has to go all jingoistic and take refuge in his false sense of nationalism.

So this is where he gets his education from....!
Songs sung by folk who accent it is difficult to determine and they have corrupted the beautiful language that we gifted the little colonists. Oh well, be warned folks, this is what happens when you live isolated lives and end-up with questionable familial relations...

But now for some education:


*Spoiler alert, no false popularism or ideology*




BBC - History - British History in depth: The American War of Independence: The Rebels and the Redcoats


Perhaps Frenchy should give him/herself a pat on the back for helping against the British....


Separately, nearly seven thousand colonists dead fighting for independence. Four thousand British troops dead fighting them. British parliament votes to end the hostilities.

But, hey, don't let small such details get in the way of making yourself feel important....


IPUK


Ps. Love the way the military historian then compares Washington taking on the British to General Vo Nguyen Giap, in that they both took on superior military forces and succeeded. By the way, who did the North Vietnamese kick up the arse and send packing....

 

[azdave35]

True to form; Hilly-Billy-Bob (Or is it Hilly-Billy-Ray ?) has to go all jingoistic and take refuge in his false sense of nationalism.

So this is where he gets his education from....!
Songs sung by folk who accent it is difficult to determine and they have corrupted the beautiful language that we gifted the little colonists. Oh well, be warned folks, this is what happens when you live isolated lives and end-up with questionable familial relations...

But now for some education:


*Spoiler alert, no false popularism or ideology*




BBC - History - British History in depth: The American War of Independence: The Rebels and the Redcoats


Perhaps Frenchy should give him/herself a pat on the back for helping against the British....


Separately, nearly seven thousand colonists dead fighting for independence. Four thousand British troops dead fighting them. British parliament votes to end the hostilities.

But, hey, don't let small such details get in the way of making yourself feel important....


IPUK


Ps. Love the way the military historian then compares Washington taking on the British to General Vo Nguyen Giap, in that they both took on superior military forces and succeeded. By the way, who did the North Vietnamese kick up the arse and send packing....

what?...you didn't like my song?

 

[cactusjumper]

True to form; Hilly-Billy-Bob (Or is it Hilly-Billy-Ray ?) has to go all jingoistic and take refuge in his false sense of nationalism.

So this is where he gets his education from....!
Songs sung by folk who accent it is difficult to determine and they have corrupted the beautiful language that we gifted the little colonists. Oh well, be warned folks, this is what happens when you live isolated lives and end-up with questionable familial relations...

But now for some education:


*Spoiler alert, no false popularism or ideology*




BBC - History - British History in depth: The American War of Independence: The Rebels and the Redcoats


Perhaps Frenchy should give him/herself a pat on the back for helping against the British....


Separately, nearly seven thousand colonists dead fighting for independence. Four thousand British troops dead fighting them. British parliament votes to end the hostilities.

But, hey, don't let small such details get in the way of making yourself feel important....


IPUK


Ps. Love the way the military historian then compares Washington taking on the British to General Vo Nguyen Giap, in that they both took on superior military forces and succeeded. By the way, who did the North Vietnamese kick up the arse and send packing....

IPUK,

Would that be the French? Can you tell me which battles the NVA won? On the other hand, they did "kick up the arse" of our civilians/politicians.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Cubfan64]

I hope this stays on topic rather than veering off into oblivion like so often happens.

 

[azdave35]

IPUK,

Would that be the French? Can you tell me which battles the NVA won? On the other hand, they did "kick up the arse" of our civilians/politicians.

Joe Ribaudo

like i said before..the only wars we lost were the ones the politicians bought off....if i remember correctly didn't we have to bail you guys out in both ww1 and ww2 ?....that being said i'm with paul....back to the subject...if you'd like an education on the evils of war we can start a new thread

 

[Interested Party in UK]

what?...you didn't like my song?

Do you speak Vietnamese, dear?

I'll give you a tune or two there...

Or, maybe how Castro made the good old US of A look like a big juddering fool on its own doorstep..., or how the Somalis have lil melodies of what they did to your 'elite' service personnel in Mogadishu....or even how the Saudis who were the instigators of Wahhabism brought the 'war' against the Westbto your front-door yet your wonderful government is in the House of Saud's pocket..., but I do not think you'll appreciate Arabic music...!




IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

like i said before..the only wars we lost were the ones the politicians bought off....if i remember correctly didn't we have to bail you guys out in both ww1 and ww2 ?....that being said i'm with paul....back to the subject...if you'd like an education on the evils of war we can start a new thread

Wow...you speak of yourself and education in the same sentence..., don't tell you've got some more 'songs' from eugenically challenged straw-chewing, bare-foot, road kill eating, moonshine drinking southern 'heroes'....





IPUK

 

[azdave35]

lol....you're pretty funny for a limey....but if it weren't for us eugenically challenged straw-chewing, bare-foot, road kill eating, moonshine drinking southern 'heroes'....you'd be speaking german right now...put that in your pipe and smoke it

 

[Cubfan64]

I hope to have some input here soon, even though the only things I have to add are based on reading and not experiencing or knowing any Apache - just don't have the time right now to really get in depth.

I do however have a train of thought/questions that may lead to what I hope will be some interesting discussion. It's something I've often wondered about, and although I've read theories and words in books, I would be extremely interested in impressions that someone within the Apache community has on the subject based on family knowledge and stories.

My questions all revolve around those Apache who became scouts...

What were the real motivations for Apaches in becoming scouts to help find "renegade" Apaches during the wars? Some of the theories I've read include:
1. Simply an opportunity to get away from the mundane reservation life and back out in the mountains and desert doing what they loved to do.
2. A chance to make a name for themselves and make a few $ for themselves and their families.
3. Inter tribal conflict - perhaps blaming the "renegades" for causing so much antagonism within the Anglo community which eventually came back to bite all Apache tribes
4. Personal vendetta's
5.

Along with that, how were the Apache relatives of scouts treated within the reservation community? I would have to assume they were treated much like "narcs" within gangs where their families are hated and despised, possibly even physically harmed due to the decision of one of "their own" to help track and kill other Apache. How are ancestors of those scout families treated today?

It's been quite some time since I've read Bourke and Crook biographies, but if I remember correctly at some point one or both men had views of the Apache that evolved over time and I know Bourke for sure spent considerable effort to try to correct at least some of the wrongs done to the Apache after the wars were over.

There is so much I would like to ask questions about, but I'll have to settle for the above for now and hope to spark discussion.

Paul

 

[nobodie]

AZDAVE35,
Don't waste your time with ipuk, he's just trying to get you riled up. This was an interesting thread.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Or even, you peons in the colonies would've been speaking Gallic or even Spanish if Great Britain didn't teach you the basics of civilisation, culture and democracy...

But, do not worry, the Chinese are going to do to you chaps what you've had a free run to do over the course of the last century. Nothing personal, just how things tend to work in cycles and if you are at the top, sooner or later, you will have to relinquish the position to the new kid on the block...

The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, yes even Great Britain! Amongst others has had its day in the sun, but something bigger and better always, but always comes along...

By the way, even though the US has many things it could and should improve on, it is still an amazing country with a truly miraculous story and remarkable history of achievement in a relatively short space of time which has managed to keep very diverse people, ideas, environments, cultures and sheer land mass, under the one banner with a set standard of values and aims. Here in Europe, a so-called 'union' of countries had barely managed to last and we in the U.K. have voted out...

Something to admire the Americanos for.


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

AZDAVE35,
Don't waste your time with ipuk, he's just trying to get you riled up. This was an interesting thread.

Guess who started the thread?


IPUK

 

[nobodie]

When a thread gets into a little girls slap fight, the thread starts to decay and then it ends. Please this is a good subject lets keep it dignified.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

G'd after noon. The Viet war and the American insurrection were both won by civilian ( seeking votes ) capitulation. The results are the same for most of Britons former colonies all over the world. Capitulation. .

As for Castro, please remember that I was almost an officer / mercenary, flying PBY's for him, until I learned that Batista had just aquired P-51 fighters equiped for night work. Some how that didn't sound as if they were playing by the Marquis' Rules. Sides I learned that my US citizenship would be kaput , even though the State dept beat around the bush on the subject.

i was USAF trained. Yes, I know, the PBY is a sea plane, but I acquired that later in the civilian market for use in Alaska.

Now about the OIRISH, somehow I never had too much sympathy for them or their cause. Sides we had a crown grant land title complete with a castle of sorts.

So ya see the final results are " what's in it for me

 

[Interested Party in UK]

When a thread gets into a little girls slap fight, the thread starts to decay and then it ends. Please this is a good subject lets keep it dignified.

Pooh, "little girls' slap fight".....you Americans really do take yourselves far too seriously


But you're right, it's a good thread with much potential, some really solid individuals posting excellent comments ( not the red-necked chaps living in trailers with partners who were once their siblings), and everyone can learn something from each other..., but I draw the line at details regarding how to spit tobacco whilst eating crap food that only makes sense to Americans and watching programmes about how Elijah married a horse in the Deep South...


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

But nobodiie, how can you do that with 1/2 civilized people like Injunbro and -----

 

[Interested Party in UK]

G'd after noon. The Viet war and the American insurrection were both won by civilian ( seeking votes ) capitulation. The results are the same for most of Britons former colonies all over the world. Capitulation. .

As for Castro, please remember that I was almost an officer / mercenary, flying PBY's for him, until I learned that Batista had just aquired P-51 fighters equiped for night work. Some how that didn't sound as if they were playing by the Marquis' Rules. Sides I learned that my US citizenship was kaput , even though the State dept beat around the bush on the subject.

i was USAF trained. Yes, I know, the PBY is a sea plane, but I acquired that later in the civilian market for use in Alaska.

Now about the OIRISH, somehow I never had too much sympathy for them or their cause. Sides we had a crown grant land title complete with a castle of sorts.

So ya see the final results are " what's in it for me

Don, I don't know much about the conflicts mentioned, but was trying sarcastically and with the intent of showing the futility of starting the "my country is better than your country" nonsense that never gets anywhere fast.

But it is true, some Americans have a very simplistic view of the world, current affairs and differences that exist across the globe.


IPUK

 

[Injunbro]

IPUK, Thanks for your kind words but why are you hijacking your own thread? It's an interesting subject, lets stick w/ it.

Cubfan, Re: Motivations for becoming scouts, all of he above. Apaches, like everyone else, are individuals & all have their own personal reasons for everything they do.

Marius, Snake is Tl`ish but now you've went & gave away some new information about yourself & have evolved into: "Marius Ighaa`bijaiilah tulhili idlaani tl`ish" (Marius, Furry chest coffee drinking snake)... I warned you nicknames evolve almost daily & w/ new information! :?