The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[Interested Party in UK]

That is very interesting, thank you Injunbro.

I had a feeling that you are pretty well known and have extensive knowledge concerning all things Apache.

I doubt many knew of Tara's situation, Cochise's actual stronghold etc.,

Some real 'nuggets' in there for the aficionado.

Don really is going to be after you for suggesting that even Jeffords never thought much of the Mexicans...

Micky Free was a pretty nefarious figure that pops in and out of the Apache saga during those turbulent times.

Many loose ends, but that is what makes all of this so engaging.

IPUK

 

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[torie517]

Geronimo did not live were cochese lived

 

[Real of Tayopa]

INJUNBro, so ya ran guns and drugs eh.. keep talking ya mule chomper

Front row extreme left, the handsome , lovable, devil may care, fearless, runt

US Border Patrol. class of 53

 

[Real of Tayopa]

IPUK. you -osted -- Don really is going to be after you for suggesting that even Jeffords never thought much of the Mexicans..

Cortez and his followers killed all of the fighting class of indians, the rest they put into Ecomendarios where the indian came with the land, where they faced the death penalty for leaving without permsion. They evetually bred the
spark out of them/

For instance my wife' s part indian, Michoacan or somewhere similar,--------- thank god not apache ------------ They talk a good fight but .

These are the people that are the drug runners etc

These are the type of people that the Apache gained their rep with. Sorta like a fox in a hen house,but when they came up against the rebel tribes,they didn't fare so well. Even the peaceful Pimas stomped them.

These are the people that are streaming across our borders and in the drug and arms smuggling groups, their jefes have the male appendages, the lower ones a lil bit, but they can be mean.

 

[Crowfriend]

I was walking along the east side of the Chiricahuas, on my way to an old homestead. I saw some stones that seemed to have been placed in patterns. I stopped and looked at the first one I found. Probably random, I thought. Then I saw another with the same basic shape. Some had a circle on each end, some only one. I remembered a pictograph in the East Stronghold, same design, more or less. At some point I found the photo of the Chiricahua "cactus kicker" with the same design element.

The location of the stones is in an area that would be an obvious entrance or gateway into that area of the mountains. I have come up with an idea of what they could represent, but I would rather hear what others may think.

 

[azdave35]

Yeah right, that's why you 'bite' at every opportunity, keep kidding yourself baby cake.

"Cheap entertainment"?

You'd know all about that, wouldn't you my boy?



IPUK

cheap entertainment....actually i should have said free entertainment...lol..where else can you see clowns with just one click of the mouse

 

[Injunbro]

Geronimo did not live were cochese lived

True. They did meet on occasion.

 

[Injunbro]

I was walking along the east side of the Chiricahuas, on my way to an old homestead. I saw some stones that seemed to have been placed in patterns. I stopped and looked at the first one I found. Probably random, I thought. Then I saw another with the same basic shape. Some had a circle on each end, some only one. I remembered a pictograph in the East Stronghold, same design, more or less. At some point I found the photo of the Chiricahua "cactus kicker" with the same design element.

The location of the stones is in an area that would be an obvious entrance or gateway into that area of the mountains. I have come up with an idea of what they could represent, but I would rather hear what others may think.




View attachment 1374928 View attachment 1374929




View attachment 1374932



View attachment 1374930

I'll pass on that one. Some pictographs make sense to me, others no. I like the ke'igan or ke`ta`ge`(different dialect) or moccasin for you white boys. I have a very old (partly dry rotted) one from an old campsite.

 

[Injunbro]

INJUNBro, so ya ran guns and drugs eh..

Wow... now I understand where you get these weird notions, you can't read! Maybe that nice little lady you married & is 1/2 your age will help w/ the big words! Of course everyone knows I'm as innocent & pure as the wind driven snow! However, just to show there's no hard feelings about your thoughtless slander I'll give you a nice western Apache nickname: "aya`hahi Joe hik`e dzadeezi a`i dalohts`qqs le`" (ignorant little Joe & mule that kisses each other).

 

[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK. you -osted -- Don really is going to be after you for suggesting that even Jeffords never thought much of the Mexicans..

Cortez and his followers killed all of the fighting class of indians, the rest they put into Ecomendarios where the indian came with the land, where they faced the death penalty for leaving without permsion. They evetually bred the
spark out of them/

For instance my wife' s part indian, Michoacan or somewhere similar,--------- thank god not apache ------------ They talk a good fight but .

These are the people that are the drug runners etc

These are the type of people that the Apache gained their rep with. Sorta like a fox in a hen house,but when they came up against the rebel tribes,they didn't fare so well. Even the peaceful Pimas stomped them.

These are the people that are streaming across our borders and in the drug and arms smuggling groups, their jefes have the male appendages, the lower ones a lil bit, but they can be mean.
View attachment 1374909

Don,

You claim against "peaceful injuns, the Apache was like a fox in a hen house."

Really?

I have come across many statements, boasts, testimonies and 'facts' where the differing tribes and people talk about how the whooped 'the other' and were never ever bothered again or were feared greatly by there enemies. Then....., if we start critically examining and cross-referencing all that is before us, a paradox starts emerging.

The Apache reputation was mentioned by the very first Spanish who set foot in northern present-day Mexico and the Southwest of the States. Some said that they were wild and savage, others that they were helpful and not a menace. All agreed that they were considered the top boys in their 'hoods. I would gladly provide the details of those pesky things called "books" where all of the relevant evidence exists, but I am at work and furthermore, my Apache 'stuff' has been stored.

The Mexicans would crap themselves when confronted with Apache and every contemporary book I've read by travellers, military officials and even adventurers, clearly state that the Apache were responsible for the inability of the homeys south of the border, not utilising their land and being in a constant state of fear and anxiety. Where do you think the stereotype of the "poor, simple, pacifist, hard done by Mex peon" derives from?

A relatively small number of Apache was responsible for this.

Now with whitey, who made war with them after the Bascom Incident and waged it unrelentingly with a small number of warriors for well over a decade and whitey didn't see a single glimpse of him until the man himself decided to meet with General Howard?
Huge swathes of Arizona and New Mexico were dangerous to travel in because of this formidable foe. Who else made such an impact...?

In the 1880s when most of the other injuns and even the majority of the Apache had accepted their lot under whitey, Chiricahuas under Nana, Chato and Ulzana led legendary raids that made national headlines at the time...?

This was not all imagined, the stuff went down and the Chiricahua were responsible. It wasn't for nothing that even after 27 years in captivity and so many tragic upheavals and losses, they was still feared in Arizona that they might return and resume their former life. In the end less than 300 Chiricahua, mostly born and/or raised as POWs, still caused such a stir...

Consult the journals, diaries and even books of the army men and officers who were tasked with bringing in the renegade/free Chiricahua, and see what they have to say. The Pima, Papagoe, Navajo and other scouts were always considered no match for the Chiricahua, and all those that fought with them, said the Apache - particularly the Chiricahua in later years - proved to be the best in ending the hostilities.

No other people in those mountains and deserts made such an impact.


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Morning IPUK, what you say is partly true, but it was because of the Apache's method of fighting in Mexico. He invariably used the ambush type of attack. He would fire a volley of arrows or bullets at the peaceful people working in the fields, then appraise the results, finish off the wounded by torture or simply fade away. I would equate his effectiveness as similar to the terrorists in Europe, just a few, cause fear among the general population, out of proportion to their numbers. to the extent that they are willing to give up some of their freedoms in the hope that the ovt will provide some (questionable ) security.

When you have small bands of say 50 or so, you can move faster and easier than a gov't military unit, and it is easier to live off the country if necessary However the attrition rate must be taken into account, even the loss of a few fighting men has a serious effect on your ability to fight, hence the ambush system of attack on the lonely homesteader, or field worker,

 

[Real of Tayopa]

p.s. There were no saints in those days my friends. Since all discussions similar to these, need apposing views, as in any debate, you need an apposing view, I tend to fulfil that role, forgiven injunbro ? The posts may not reflect my actual views, but the Apache was a skulking, thieving, ambusher, rather than a stand up and fight Injun.

He ambushed the others in their home territory, where they were scraping together a living, then cried UNFAIR when the opposing forces did the same to him and his. No Saints on either side.

The YAQUI held their own against the Mexican Army in frontal battle, where as a handful of Mexican troopers in the small forts formed a barrier to the apache that limited their excursions from the relative flatlands to the Sierra Madre where no effective patrolling could be done oweing to the awesome ruggedness and depths of the barrancas, one after the other. All had small areas that were suitable for planting which the small groups of local Indians utilized, and that the apache raided. How do you fight an enemy that attacks from ambush under their terms ? Where if you show sufficient resistance, simply fades away leaving your dead and wounded ?

 

[Crowfriend]

Our esteemed Don wrote: "the Apache was a skulking, thieving, ambusher, rather than a stand up and fight Injun."

Somewhere, I can't remember where, this very conversation (from soldier to warrior) occurred in the days long ago, except the person used "like a coyote, the Apache..."

The reply "Thank you, higher praise cannot be given,"

 

[Crowfriend]

Another quote that I cannot remember where it came from was this. It was in response to a group of travelers in Arizona Territory. The asked an old timer about the danger from the Apaches and what they should know about that.

the reply: "Always look for Apache sign. If you see any, be very careful. If you don't see any, be very, very, careful."

 

[Azquester]

I'm no Apache, just Monacan. What I like about Geronimo was his many jobs he took after his surrender.

Like Geronimo the Sherriff of Tombstone!

View attachment 1375231

Look out Wyatt!

 

[Crowfriend]

Another of the C S Fly photos. I find it interesting that Geronimo's son, Chappo, sports a Windsor knot. Maybe his father taught him to tie it. That evokes a tender scene. "Let's see here son, the coyote chases the rabbit around the shrub, and he dives into this tunnel and escapes out the other end."

 

[Injunbro]

Don Jose/ROT: you posted "the Apache was a skulking, thieving, ambusher, rather than a stand up and fight Injun"... That sounds like the exact description used by the British to describe the colonists fighting for their freedom or the IRA (Irish Republican Army).... or are the Oirish the "terrorists in Europe" you're referring to?

 

[Injunbro]

The apache that lived here are not like the other apache they stayed here they had no dogs they were trickery like the bear or to even say coyotes could bring trickery to you if you wanted to plant one year and not the other that was ok they shared if you had one power you would share it most had a power like geronimo he had the power of the moon he on a raid could keep the moon out till safe back home you could see what i am saying first hand water here is plenty food the same the gold like the bear was nothing to have geronimo used the gold and look what happened I am apache the other tribes came here to met they a ranged marriages and talked

torie517, I'll bet being apache yourself you could share some interesting things, stories, etc.. Would you?

 

[Real of Tayopa]

nah injunbro, but they were in their time. The present crop of terrorists come from the middle East/ We have had them in most countries, The Moros in the Philippines, the Moslems in the Far east, The Jews in Jeruslem, The Apache in the west, etc. etc. Actually the OIRISH were pikers in the terrorism league, small timers.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

I have been following Tories' posts for quite while, she can.