The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[Cubfan64]

reckon that those mountains still hold plenty of secrets if one can separate the truthful from the fanciful

And that in a nutshell is what keeps "Coronado's Children" dreaming. I can say for myself at least, very few nights go by that I don't fall asleep thinking about one place or another that I'd like to explore and wondering what I might find there.

 

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[Real of Tayopa]

IPUK I have a Ca partner, but his group keep putting off his financing, so stand by

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Why, cheers to you dear Don; we might just crack that nut yet...


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

And that in a nutshell is what keeps "Coronado's Children" dreaming. I can say for myself at least, very few nights go by that I don't fall asleep thinking about one place or another that I'd like to explore and wondering what I might find there.

That is what keeps us all going: wanting, yearning to learn what lies around the next hill/mountain/dune/forest. The "dreamers" are the ones responsible for crossing oceans, continents, reaching the extreme poles on earth, searching out 'fables' and proving them to be true...There really is nothing wrong in wanting something different and not being told what is possible and what is impossible (most like to live within boundaries and certainties imposed by others). I have been fortunate enough to meet and talk to some remarkable individuals that are now enjoying the rewards of their sacrifices.
Of course this doesn't negate the reality of ensuring that your goals are grounded in reality.

But, if you really have the focus, dedication, resources and desire, go and follow your instincts and heart's desire!!


IPUK

 

[Oroblanco]

IPUK thank you for the very kind words, even if undeserved. This topic is very complicated, and many folks have opinions which are based on an incomplete understanding of the facts, one can hardly make any sweeping statements concerning the Apaches.

In the interest of keeping with the topic, and the idea of surviving 'bronco' or wild Apaches that remained off the reservations (especially holding out in the Sierras of Mexico) Cowboys and Indians magazine ran an interesting article earlier this year that some might find interesting:
The Last Free Apaches - C&I Magazine

For some reason the right click did not work and I had to hand type that in, so hopefully it will work for anyone interested. If not just go to the magazine site and search for an article of that title, or the date etc.


The end of the Indian wars is generally assigned at the battle or massacre at Wounded Knee in 1890, but there are a number of battles which occurred well after this date; an incident with the Navajos in 1907, another with the Crees in 1898, a fight in Utah with the Shoshones in 1923, a battle between the US Army and a band of Yaquis occurred in Arizona in 1918 among others just a few examples. There is no real clear cut ending, just as there was no clear cut beginning to this very complex part of history.

Please do continue;

 

[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK thank you for the very kind words, even if undeserved. This topic is very complicated, and many folks have opinions which are based on an incomplete understanding of the facts, one can hardly make any sweeping statements concerning the Apaches.

In the interest of keeping with the topic, and the idea of surviving 'bronco' or wild Apaches that remained off the reservations (especially holding out in the Sierras of Mexico) Cowboys and Indians magazine ran an interesting article earlier this year that some might find interesting:
The Last Free Apaches - C&I Magazine

For some reason the right click did not work and I had to hand type that in, so hopefully it will work for anyone interested. If not just go to the magazine site and search for an article of that title, or the date etc.


The end of the Indian wars is generally assigned at the battle or massacre at Wounded Knee in 1890, but there are a number of battles which occurred well after this date; an incident with the Navajos in 1907, another with the Crees in 1898, a fight in Utah with the Shoshones in 1923, a battle between the US Army and a band of Yaquis occurred in Arizona in 1918 among others just a few examples. There is no real clear cut ending, just as there was no clear cut beginning to this very complex part of history.

Please do continue;

That is quite alright Oroblanco - I am simply calling it like I see it.

Thank you for the link, I have come across that story and it is a most interesting one.

It follows-on from some other information I have come across recently. There is an American author living in Arizona with a big, old ranch about 20 miles from the border. He must be in his mid-to-late-eighties now. He is a true aficionado of the Madre mountains and its turbulent, yet very interesting, history. He wrote a book whilst in those very mountains in the early 1970s which was subsequently made into a film starring Paul Newman. This big, gruff, no-nonsense old cowboy has done and seen plenty take place there...

He said that during the 1930s when he was a young lad, he made regular trips into the Madres with his father. The indigenous natives were well acquainted with his father and had an amiable friendship. Once whilst deep into the mountains, a band of mostly Yaqui came down fleeing from a troop of Mexican cavalry. His father told him to keep quiet and calm. His father also noticed that some of the 'Yaqui' women, children and a handful of men, wore suspicious looking clothes, in that they remarkably resembled Apache dress which some old-timers still wore in Arizona and that his father was well-aware of their worldly items they were carrying to flee the Mexicans...

Some camps that had been used recently, the Apache 'Post Office', stockpiles of nuts and berries that were staples of the Apache, he claimed, were still being found up until the 1950s.

I for one, am very excited about ever having the opportunity to visit the Madres (even whilst the criminal element are doing their "business" there).


IPUK

 

[cactusjumper]

IPUK,

When the Apache were chased into the Southwest, they raided and harassed the peaceful pueblo dwellers. Eventually they abandoned their cliff homes and moved away. Some of the Apache liked the way the pueblo Indians lived and took over their homes and crop fields. They became the Navajo tribe. (Opinion)

It's a very interesting bit of history.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

IPUK,

When the Apache were chased into the Southwest, they raided and harassed the peaceful pueblo dwellers. Eventually they abandoned their cliff homes and moved away. Some of the Apache liked the way the pueblo Indians lived and took over their homes and crop fields. They became the Navajo tribe. (Opinion)

It's a very interesting bit of history.

Good luck,

Joe

very interesting theory

 

[cactusjumper]

very interesting theory

Dave,

The theory is not original, although I do agree with it. I believe it was first proposed by Helge Ingstad in "The Apache Indians: In Search of the Missing Tribe". The theory may have come to him through someone else, like Goodwin, but I don't know that for a fact. Helge was a pretty sharp cookie and knew the history of the Apache, probably, as well as anyone. I believe the book was first mentioned here by Paul and it's a good one.

Take care,

Joe

 

[EarnieP]

very interesting theory

It's all 'Chinese' to me.

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

The theory is not original, although I do agree with it. I believe it was first proposed by Helge Ingstad in "The Apache Indians: In Search of the Missing Tribe". The theory may have come to him through someone else, like Goodwin, but I don't know that for a fact. Helge was a pretty sharp cookie and knew the history of the Apache, probably, as well as anyone. I believe the book was first mentioned here by Paul and it's a good one.

Take care,

Joe

apache and navajo do share alot of the same traits and are very similar looking...could very well be the same tribe

 

[Oroblanco]

I agree with Cactusjumper's theory, sounds plausible, and there are similarities in their language even in what they called themselves - Di-ne and Ni-de. Early references to the Navajos often call them Apache-Navajos too. Joe could you expound on this theory a bit more? Thanks in advance.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK,

When the Apache were chased into the Southwest, they raided and harassed the peaceful pueblo dwellers. Eventually they abandoned their cliff homes and moved away. Some of the Apache liked the way the pueblo Indians lived and took over their homes and crop fields. They became the Navajo tribe. (Opinion)

It's a very interesting bit of history.

Good luck,

Joe

CJ,

Agree that the evidence does indeed point to the Apache being "chased" into the Southwest - probably by the more numerous and in some cases, even fiercer and crueler Comanche. But as the Comanche adapted to using horses very quickly, they had a superior advantage which they made count against their enemies. Ironically, it also played a part in their demise as they were so dependent on it as well. The Apache travelled just as well on foot and even used the horse as source of food and had no qualms with operating without one when necessary.

With regards to the Navajos who were much more in number than the Apache being described as "Apache-Navajos", it is an interesting one because there is evidence to say "yay" and "nay". Many Apache saw the Navajo as being 'linked' to them but had no qualms about raiding and making war on them. Even though the Spanish and Mexicans had trouble from the Navajo, it was never on the scale that was happening with the Apache (the Chiricahua in particular).

If I am not mistaken, the Navajo were mainly into raiding horse herds and not too keen on looking for fights with the Apache. If we go on the last free leaders of the Chiricahua Apache - Jun, Victorio, Geronimo, Nana et al., they were never too friendly with the Navajo and had no great 'friendship' towards them. Many early historians and visitors to the Southwest mistook every Injun to be the 'same' and most could never differentiate between, tribes, bands, extended family groups and even the locations that they inhabited due to their nomadic existence.

I am afraid the pueblo-dwellers were always on a hiding to nothing, because being "peaceful" at that time and place in history, was going to mean a literal struggle to stay alive.

As Oroblanco has said, please continue.


IPUK

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy and IPUK,

I have been reading about Apache history and pre-history for many decades now. I know what the general consensus is for their origin and history, but would be hard pressed to deliver a decent write-up for the overall evidence, without opening a number of good books on the subject. On the other hand, I could supply you with the names of authors and their books when I get home. While I still read.....a lot, Native American and Apache history is subject to the effects of poor memory/brain.

A quick search for Apache Navajo connections will bring brief outlines of what I have read.

Discovery of the Athabascan Origin of the Apache and Navajo Languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache

http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/19-dna-evidence-of-navajo-people-and-apache-people/

This is a very small sample of what is available online. I have dozens of books that deal with the subject, and don't mind providing you with that information.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Guys,

Here is a very short list of the books I have:

Chiricahua Apache Prisoners of War, Living Life's Circle; Mescalero Apache Cosmovision, In the Days of Victorio Recollections..., Cochise : The Life and Times of the Great Apache ...,
THE APACHE KID, Dateline Fort Bowie : Charles Fletcher Lummis, Merejildo Grijalva: Apache Captive, Army Scout, Mickey Free, Apache Captive,Interpreter, and Scout,
Wandering Peoples: Colonialism, Ethnic Spaces and ....., Foreigners in Their Native Land, GENERAL CROOK AND THE APACHE WARS, VERDE TO SAN CARLOS, With General Crook In The Indian War, Cycles of Conquest, Defiance and Deference in Mexico's Colonial North, Hrdlicka, Ales. PHYSIOLOGICAL AND MEDICAL OBSERVATIONS AMONG THE INDIANS OF SOUTHWESTERN UNITED STATES AND NORTHERN MEXICO, Apache Voices: Their Stories of Survival......, WOMEN OF THE APACHE NATION Voices of Truth,
The First Hundred Years of Nino Cochise..., Starting with Defiance : Nineteenth Century Arizona, Apaches of New Mexico 1540-1940, Ice Age Civilizations, Al Sieber Chief of Scouts,

Many of my books are signed first editions and I have had personal contact with a number of the authors. They are able and willing to answer many questions that are not addressed in their books. My research has included South America, Central America, Mexico, Siberia, Alaska, Europe and The United States. It has dealt with pre-history, historic, and modern-day history.

I wish my memory was better, but it is what it is.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Not to take issue with anything here, but the Navajo-Apache relationship has a complicated history. At times they were allies, at other times enemies. Also this ally-enemy relationship could be with one tribe or two tribes of either (say, with Jicarilla but not with Chiricahua etc) and also would point out that the Spanish certainly did have some big troubles with the Navajos, as did the US. For example the attacks on Tucson in the 1770s were made by combined forces of Navajos and Apaches, and the US had a war with the Navajos which really only ended after Kit Carson destroyed much of the peach orchards, sheep herds etc that the Navajos relied on for their sustenance. Many Navajo were never able to forgive Carson for this act, which was the only effective way to defeat them as they proved very difficult opponents in battle.

I would propose that the Navajo arrived MUCH sooner in the southwest than the rest of the Apache, as they are mentioned in very early Spanish reports, 1540 if memory serves but I welcome correction for that first documented contact. As this date is so early, it likely shows that the Navajo migrated into the region perhaps for different reasons than the Apache peoples whom were literally being driven from the plains by Comanches, Kiowas and other horse tribes.

Please do continue, and to Joe, I am quite impressed! Having seen a part of your library, I remain highly jealous! Side point but the book you sent, has already provided even more new leads, such as Cartwright's collection of research which turns out to be held in a museum in Lead SD, which as you know is not so far away from where we live, so the book is proving to be even more useful than just the contents. I can not thank you enough.

Merry Christmas to all,
Oroblanco

 

[azdave35]

Not to take issue with anything here, but the Navajo-Apache relationship has a complicated history. At times they were allies, at other times enemies. Also this ally-enemy relationship could be with one tribe or two tribes of either (say, with Jicarilla but not with Chiricahua etc) and also would point out that the Spanish certainly did have some big troubles with the Navajos, as did the US. For example the attacks on Tucson in the 1770s were made by combined forces of Navajos and Apaches, and the US had a war with the Navajos which really only ended after Kit Carson destroyed much of the peach orchards, sheep herds etc that the Navajos relied on for their sustenance. Many Navajo were never able to forgive Carson for this act, which was the only effective way to defeat them as they proved very difficult opponents in battle.

I would propose that the Navajo arrived MUCH sooner in the southwest than the rest of the Apache, as they are mentioned in very early Spanish reports, 1540 if memory serves but I welcome correction for that first documented contact. As this date is so early, it likely shows that the Navajo migrated into the region perhaps for different reasons than the Apache peoples whom were literally being driven from the plains by Comanches, Kiowas and other horse tribes.

Please do continue, and to Joe, I am quite impressed! Having seen a part of your library, I remain highly jealous! Side point but the book you sent, has already provided even more new leads, such as Cartwright's collection of research which turns out to be held in a museum in Lead SD, which as you know is not so far away from where we live, so the book is proving to be even more useful than just the contents. I can not thank you enough.

Merry Christmas to all,
Oroblanco

this thread might finally produce some useful info.....carry on

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I agree with you concerning the book, and the fact that you are enjoying it gives me a great start on the Christmas spirit.

I believe the Apache separated from the people who became Navajo, and moved east into the vast herds of buffalo. Those people were known as the Kiowa-Apache. Eventually they were forced back to the west.

The Apache lifestyle is what put them at the mercy of larger populations. Nomadic hunter gatherers needed large spaces and small groups to survive. Those who stayed in one place and took to growing crops, became the larger more powerful tribes. In that sense, Cochise is a good example in a smaller fashion. When the populations get large, they tend to come under the leadership of a strong chief. In that type of society, it just seems to work better than many small bands spread out over a wide area.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Injunbro]

Oral tradition passed on by elders says that what are now known as Apaches (including Chiricahuas, Mescalero's, Jicarilla, Lipan, etc.), Navajos, Yavapai's & Hualapai's all came from a large common tribe from up north but split & scattered due to infighting. Some went to the plains, some what's now New Mexico, AZ, Mexico. No, this "up north" does not support the Bering Strait ice bridge theory, "north" means what is now northern AZ. The stories also claim the original tribe came across the pacific to this area, got sick eating Colorado River fish which is why traditionalists shun fish. There is a sacred cave in the Grand Canyon. There is no legend that says they originated in China except what has come from Whites history books. Kiowa-Apaches are a mix of small groups of Lipans & Kiowas who joined for mutual protection much like the remnants of the Chiricahuas joined w/ Tarahumaris in Mexico. Navajos didn't join Pueblo tribes (a few have inter-married now) - they did trade w/ & steal from them & in some ways stole part of their religion (mostly Zuni). Most AZ/NM tribes consider Navajos the Pollack's of the Injun world - silly, drunken, immoral, bozos... much like White men but not as greedy. Their main redeeming trait today is they make nice blankets & rugs. Spaniards (& other Whites) couldn't tell a Yavapai from an Apache from a Pima from a Navajo from a Tohono O'odham from a hole in the ground & their version of history is very screwed up... of course these are the same bunch who destroyed the healing arts, technology & history of the Aztecs, Mayans & Toltecs because they weren't based in Catholicism.

 

[EarnieP]

...DNA...