The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[cactusjumper]

Not sure how this topic (Apaches of the Southwest) ties in with whom or which group of humans arrived in the Americas "first", but like everything that IS related, it is COMPLICATED.
The land bridge THEORY seems like a good 'pat' answer as to how the American continents got peopled. However according to geologists, there never was any "ice free corridor" down through the continent-wide glacier that covered most of Canada, making an utterly impassible roadblock to any migrations (including by mammoths, horses etc) across Canada in the right time period to fit the Bering strait land bridge theory. I have NO doubt that animals DID cross that land bridge, but only when it was relatively ice-free. The genetic differences between American species of mammoths and mastodons from their Eurasian cousins are fairly solid proof that the species must have been separated for a long enough time to become different species.

The alternate THEORY has the first Americans coming by sea, and while crossing the open oceans probably was a very bad idea circa 10,000 BC, by simply following the coastlines, and edges of the ice pack (the northern polar ice cap extended well south into the Atlantic during the Ice Age) AND with the lower sea levels, the distances from Asia, and from Europe coming from the opposite direction, were shorter. Recent DNA studies have shown that up to one third of all Amerindians have EUROPEAN ancestry, and two thirds have Asian origins.

"Great Surprise"?Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins

Even these ancient Ice Age colonists were NOT the first to arrive in the Americas and make it a home either. The oldest human remains found in the Americas appear to be most closely related to the Australoid peoples, (the Aborigines of Australia) and based on where these remains have been found, must have colonized South America first!

The suggested origin of the pre-Clovis Australoid population of the Americas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzia_Woman

Even if we assign the Amerindians as having come, "from China", that is no clear cut genetic closed case! There were "west Asian" (European) people living in what is today China at least by the Bronze Age:
<This one was on Forbes magazine website but has been pulled, likely due to the politically correct issues it raised but is still available as a Google cache>

DNA Reveals These Red-Haired Chinese Mummies Come From Europe And Asia

Evidence that a West-East admixed population lived in the Tarim Basin as early as the early Bronze Age | BMC Biology | Full Text

Analysis of ancient human mitochondrial DNA from the Xiaohe cemetery: insights into prehistoric population movements in the Tarim Basin, China | BMC Genetics | Full Text

Bottom line is that the Americas have been a mixing bowl of the various races and peoples over the millenia. Still are. Who got here first? It is complicated! Oh and side thing here but saying "whitey" all the time is just like saying "redskins" or "darkies" other racist epithets. You can call it PC etc but if you are going to be against racism it helps if you are not being that way yourself. Humans apparently all started out from AFRICA, although there are alternate theories as well, and spread out from there.

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco


　

Roy and Beth,

Hope you had a wonderful Christmas and are looking forward to the new year.

I have always been partial to the Ice Free Corridor story, it just sounds neat and answers a lot of questions on how the migration may have taken place out of Alaska to the lower 48. I also like the theory of the Bearing Strait pathway from Asia, by boat or land/ice. I can also see how the European migration could have and probably did take place. There is ample evidence for both theories, from what I have read.

It's a fascinating bit of history, and everyone should take the opportunity to read about it. Ice Free Corridor - Clovis Pathway into Americas
I will post some of the books I have read later.

Happy New Year!

Joe

 

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[Injunbro]

Dude I Question your even Native American, because your talking shinola.

Wrmickel1

Since you're in North Dakota go visit Pine Ridge Rez, then tell us if you'd trade places w/ anyone there.

 

[azdave35]

Since you're in North Dakota go visit Pine Ridge Rez, then tell us if you'd trade places w/ anyone there.

injunbro...no one is a prisoner of their surroundings ...if you are not prospering where you are...move on to a new locality where the pickins aren't so slim....it's a big world out there with many opportunities for an ambitious man....if you have no ambition..then that's a different story... like it says in the bible..you reap what you sow...if you dont sow..you don't reap...lol

 

[Injunbro]

injunbro...no one is a prisoner of their surroundings ...if you are not prospering where you are...move on to a new locality where the pickins aren't so slim....it's a big world out there with many opportunities for an ambitious man....if you have no ambition..then that's a different story... like it says in the bible..you reap what you sow...if you dont sow..you don't reap...lol

I'm very happy w/ where I live, we chose to retire here. I don't live on a Rez but get sick of people who are under the delusion all Indians get free everything whether they live on a Rez or not. Absolutely not true.

 

[azdave35]

I'm very happy w/ where I live, we chose to retire here. I don't live on a Rez but get sick of people who are under the delusion all Indians get free everything whether they live on a Rez or not. Absolutely not true.

i have enough indian in me to get quite a few freebies if i wanted to move back down south....but i would rather make my own way..i have indian friends of many different tribes and they all get taken care of pretty good...my friends mom lives in the south..(Cherokee)...she is 1/8th indian and she got a free house on 16 acres...free utilities..free health care...they bought her a new car and she gets a check from the casino's every month...i know pima's here in az that get the same or better...maybe the govt. just doesn't like the Apache's very much..maybe they didn't like getting buried in ant hills or skinned alive ..maybe if they would have been a little nicer they wouldn't have it so bad now

 

[wrmickel1]

Since you're in North Dakota go visit Pine Ridge Rez, then tell us if you'd trade places w/ anyone there.

Dude, I've worked on every Rez in ND. And there is no pine ridge here. But I do agree there's hardship living on a Rez.

What I don't agree with is I really don't believe your Indian,
The way you transverse with others and to call our land a Rez is not our way.

Wrmickel1

Ps I don't think you ever lived on ( A REZ )

 

[azdave35]

Dude, I've worked on every Rez in ND. And there is no pine ridge here. But I do agree there's hardship living on a Rez.

What I don't agree with is I really don't believe your Indian,
The way you transverse with others and to call our land a Rez is not our way.

Wrmickel1

Ps I don't think you ever lived on ( A REZ )

no matter what color or race there is always going to be both ambitious and lazy individuals....whether you are on the rez or white man land its the same..the more ambitious people live better and have more than the lazy ones...the lazy ones just whine more...lol

 

[EarnieP]

If I remember correctly, Injunbro has already said the last several generations of his family chose to live off the 'Rez'.
Does that somehow make him unable to notice the poverty in those area?

Why so harsh, ...dude?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Ridge_Indian_Reservation (South Dakota)

http://www.re-member.org/pine-ridge-reservation.aspx

 

[wrmickel1]

If I remember correctly, Injunbro has already said the last several generations of his family chose to live off the 'Rez'.
Does that somehow make him unable to notice the poverty in those area?

Why so harsh, ...dude?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Ridge_Indian_Reservation (South Dakota)

http://www.re-member.org/pine-ridge-reservation.aspx

Well, I never new that, I have not followed the thread it's not my foray, But I do think I met him once. Not sure!

Maybe he called himself then Guy Brunner Maybe!

Wrmickel1

 

[cactusjumper]

Dude, I've worked on every Rez in ND. And there is no pine ridge here. But I do agree there's hardship living on a Rez.

What I don't agree with is I really don't believe your Indian,
The way you transverse with others and to call our land a Rez is not our way.

Wrmickel1

Ps I don't think you ever lived on ( A REZ )

Wrm.,

Injunbro did not say Pine Ridge Reservation was in North Dakota. I believe he was saying you could visit it easily in South Dakota from your location.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[wrmickel1]

Well I guess he's never been there, A pick from the Internet. But no I wouldn't trade lives with any nor would I trade with Bill Gates.

I came from the poorest of the poor. A large family of 15, I'm the 14th with 1 younger bro.
But I surely earned my life and all that's in it.
So what ever hand your dealt it's possible to rise above it.

Wrmickel1

So Injunbro,Is as white as Joe, cause in the north,were use to Snow! Even if it's a Job.

 

[Oroblanco]

IPUK just a side note here but 'Don' Jose, Real de Tayopa is not his name; the 'Don' is an honorary sort of 'title' as was bestowed on wealthy Spanish landowners. As he qualifies in the land department, and as a successful treasure hunter, the title of 'Don' is fitting for him. Jose' or Joseph is his first name. Not 'Donny' though.

Thanks Joe, I have also read much on it, and for years did not question the Bering strait land bridge theory. What raised a problem is the gigantic glacier that blocked any kind of migration across Canada for millennia. Even IF there was an 'ice-free corridor' running through it, the best evidence suggests that the largest animals that were living in that 'corridor' were mice. No evidence of massive herds of big game for them to pursue southwards. The sea route, along the coasts, has evidence to support it and would have been a much faster and safer route for those Ice Age colonists. How else can we explain that the oldest human remains found in the Americas is found in Chile, in South America? Did Humans trek across North America without leaving a trace, to get there?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Verde

On the whole racial aspects of this, I do not believe there is such a thing as a "purebred" human being. All are related to one degree or another, whether you believe in Adam and Eve or the scientific version of Adam and Eve, all humans spring from a common source, and have been interbreeding as long as there have been humans. Mostly this 'cross breeding' has been highly beneficial, in health and other aspects. The big reason why the US government wants to keep the tribal Amerindians so strictly 'pure' as a 'race' is to avoid having to pay larger annuities and treaty benefits. Most tribes had no such racial limiting rules as have been imposed by our government.

Side point here but I would also add that Amerindians were crossing the Atlantic in the other direction, pretty much on the same time schedule as the Europeans were heading West. A kayak came ashore with a couple of Eskimo aboard in Britain around 1500, and even back in the Roman times, Tacitus recorded a boat that arrived in Germania that had "Indians" aboard, that were quite a curiosity in the Empire, and just like Columbus they were assumed to be from India. Plutarch also records the voyage of one boat from America to the ruins of Carthage, which was made when (apparently) Carthage stopped visiting them and they wanted to find out what had happened to their friends. Our history is not all about violent conquest, some of the contact and exchange was friendly and beneficial, including even with the Apaches and Americans.

Please do continue;

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - further evidence against the land bridge idea, is that with those oldest human remains found in Chile, there were NO bones or other traces that they ever hunted any of the large animals (mega fauna) like mammoths, rhinos, giant bison etc. So they would not have had reason to follow those herds as the largest game they were apparently hunting and eating were deer.

Please do continue,

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Oroblanco,

Sure, I know 'Don' isn't Joseph's name; I'm pretty sure ' Oroblanco' isn't yours...

I used 'Donny' as a playful gesture that Joe knows was Don in jest, in fact, apart from this post, through the last few years, I've always referred to Joe as 'Don', ' Tayopa' etc..


Going back to the discussion regarding who were the first settlers of the Americas, many South AmerIndian tribes have legends and stories connected to "Boats of Giants" coming from the Pacific Ocean. Of course there is nothing straightforward and we are talking about a huge landmass and enormous timeframe, so it is quite conceivable and very probable, there was numerous groups settling at differing periods in history.

I haven't looked into or researched this in any depth and can only relate the anecdotes and tidbits picked-up during other investigations I've done. However, this is very interesting and science can only take us so far because there is simply so much more to uncover.


IPUK

 

[Injunbro]

Wrmickel: I know where Pine Ridge is, duh, some friends are from there. You could visit there if you want an education. I've said before if you actually bothered to read my posts: I'm a halfbreed - 1/2 Dutch, 1/2 Native American & as stated before we haven't lived on a Rez for 3 generations by choice. If you don't like the term Rez up there in the frozen northland good for you, it's common here in AZ. I've never met you but have a friend named Guy Bruner who isn't a member of this forum, you likely saw his YouTube where he videoed my homemade cannon when he visited us here in AZ. I really couldn't care less what your opinion is of anything, you could actually read & learn a bit... or you can just keep running your mouth ignorantly.

 

[wrmickel1]

Well I don't thank so what's a You Tube.

But once again I was right you never been there. It used to be part of the Standing Rock till the state lines between North and South Dakota were made. Of Course I've been there. I've worked there. Good friendly people used to go drinking with them.

Babymick13. Type it in you tube

Wrmickel1

 

[cactusjumper]

IPUK just a side note here but 'Don' Jose, Real de Tayopa is not his name; the 'Don' is an honorary sort of 'title' as was bestowed on wealthy Spanish landowners. As he qualifies in the land department, and as a successful treasure hunter, the title of 'Don' is fitting for him. Jose' or Joseph is his first name. Not 'Donny' though.

Thanks Joe, I have also read much on it, and for years did not question the Bering strait land bridge theory. What raised a problem is the gigantic glacier that blocked any kind of migration across Canada for millennia. Even IF there was an 'ice-free corridor' running through it, the best evidence suggests that the largest animals that were living in that 'corridor' were mice. No evidence of massive herds of big game for them to pursue southwards. The sea route, along the coasts, has evidence to support it and would have been a much faster and safer route for those Ice Age colonists. How else can we explain that the oldest human remains found in the Americas is found in Chile, in South America? Did Humans trek across North America without leaving a trace, to get there?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Verde

On the whole racial aspects of this, I do not believe there is such a thing as a "purebred" human being. All are related to one degree or another, whether you believe in Adam and Eve or the scientific version of Adam and Eve, all humans spring from a common source, and have been interbreeding as long as there have been humans. Mostly this 'cross breeding' has been highly beneficial, in health and other aspects. The big reason why the US government wants to keep the tribal Amerindians so strictly 'pure' as a 'race' is to avoid having to pay larger annuities and treaty benefits. Most tribes had no such racial limiting rules as have been imposed by our government.

Side point here but I would also add that Amerindians were crossing the Atlantic in the other direction, pretty much on the same time schedule as the Europeans were heading West. A kayak came ashore with a couple of Eskimo aboard in Britain around 1500, and even back in the Roman times, Tacitus recorded a boat that arrived in Germania that had "Indians" aboard, that were quite a curiosity in the Empire, and just like Columbus they were assumed to be from India. Plutarch also records the voyage of one boat from America to the ruins of Carthage, which was made when (apparently) Carthage stopped visiting them and they wanted to find out what had happened to their friends. Our history is not all about violent conquest, some of the contact and exchange was friendly and beneficial, including even with the Apaches and Americans.

Please do continue;

Roy,

I only picked out four books to recommend:

"Bones Boats & Bison" by James Dixon, "The Bering Land Bridge" by David Hopkins, "The Settlement of the Americas: A New Prehistory" by Thomas Dillehay and "The Last Giant of Beringia...." by Dan O'Neill The first three are really good, in my opinion, but I really enjoyed O'Neill's book about the life of Dave Hoopkins. I have others, but if you read those they will put some meat on your Bering Land Bridge bones.

Happy New Year to all,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Well I don't thank so what's a You Tube.

But once again I was right you never been there. It used to be part of the Standing Rock till the state lines between North and South Dakota were made. Of Course I've been there. I've worked there. Good friendly people used to go drinking with them.

Babymick13. Type it in you tube

Wrmickel1

You are singing better than treasure hunting . Keep singing .

 

[wrmickel1]

Markmar

Don't be star struck by my charm and witty riffs, I pretty good at the Treasure thing.

Thanks for checking it out

Wrmickel1

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I only picked out four books to recommend:

"Bones Boats & Bison" by James Dixon, "The Bering Land Bridge" by David Hopkins, "The Settlement of the Americas: A New Prehistory" by Thomas Dillehay and "The Last Giant of Beringia...." by Dan O'Neill The first three are really good, in my opinion, but I really enjoyed O'Neill's book about the life of Dave Hoopkins. I have others, but if you read those they will put some meat on your Bering Land Bridge bones.

Happy New Year to all,

Joe

Thanks Joe, however it will take some time before I can get to all of those four; that said, I rather doubt that any argument is going to work to convince me that the Bering land bridge idea is "The" correct answer. None (so far as I am aware) have an answer for that missing ice-free-corridor, that is missing at the time it is supposed to be there anyway, nor for the OLDEST human remains being found not in Alaska, where logically they should be found according to the land bridge theory, but in Chile in South America! Worse, those ancient humans were not hunting anything larger than deer!

Some evidence is being found that colonization did arrive by sea too, although the rising sea levels have submerged the best sites to find such evidence. The simple skin-boat kayaks are a very old design but capable of sailing along a coast line for considerable distances. In fact it would be highly illogical for these 'first' Americans NOT to choose to travel along the coasts, where they did not have to cross any giant glaciers nor raging rivers full of melted ice water. Not to mention the fact that many Ice Age cultures were very much linked to maritime life, obtaining a fair portion of their sustenance from easy sea food sources like clams, fish, seals, etc. Such people would naturally explore along those coasts.

https://www.theguardian.com/science...-not-have-arrived-by-dry-land-study-indicates

If you or anyone can show me how the OLDEST Americans turn up in Chile, SO far from any land bridge whatsoever, I will be happy to entertain the idea.

I think our local library has at least one of these titles, "the settlement of the Americas,.." so perhaps it won't be so difficult to find them.

In case I do not get on here before then, wishing you and everyone here a very Happy New Year and lets hope it is a better one than 2016 was.