The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[Real of Tayopa]

omly way to go OLD

 

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[Oroblanco]

OMG...........perhaps a re-read of the early post in this thread might be in order. Or; maybe not and better left in peace. Those parties have established a semi cease fire although no apology from the offender has been forthcoming. Perhaps privately. I certainly hope so. That WAS vicious.

PS: Clue: Last I knew, Ryan was/is not married and didn't have a mule. Do you guys really think I'm nothing but a hall monitor on one person's behalf? My comments are about glaring hypocrisy and not some secret agenda that seems to intrigue some. Geez......

OK I re-read the first few pages and it appears that PERHAPS you have misunderstood some of what that "vicious exchange" was. It was a misunderstanding, some barbs were tossed NOT intended as real insults and things got out of hand but peace was restored. On the other hand, I fail to see how Ryan is involved whatsoever. Ryan has not posted a single post in this thread. Real de Tayopa's famous mule is included in our friendly barb tossing, not attempting to be mean or vicious and has nothing to do with Ryan. Heck we have had mules ourselves,<three in fact, one of which was actually quite vicious> ended up having to sell them due to a house fire or might still have them. I fail to see any secret agenda or glaring hypocrisy in this thread. Perhaps you can point it out for me?

As to the "manifest destiny" and the modern guilt-trip that some folks have made a career out of and DO have a hidden agenda (professional victims of those evil "whiteys" or Spaniards etc) you MAY be seeing more in the posts here than is really there. We get it, it was wrong for the Americans, Mexicans and Spanish to "steal" the lands of the Apaches (or fill in tribe name here) even though in pretty much every case, the lands were being paid for and fought over, and you can make the case that the Southwest was not the true homelands of the Apaches any more than Montana was the homelands of the Sioux. Not one of us alive today had anything to do with those events. Including capturing, selling, trading or otherwise owning slaves. I think we can discuss it today even though it is far more complicated than many people realize but perhaps some people can not discuss it.

Bill has learned that valuable lesson about staying UPWIND, especially before that first morning sock coffee! Nothing like beans for your evening meal to keep the tent warm!


One episode of this history of the Apaches that is particularly mysterious (few records) are the attempts by the Jesuits to convert them. Clearly these efforts failed miserably, yet what exactly did they try? I found one very brief mention of the Jesuits having attempted to send two captured Apache youths out to bring in their tribes, which failed but no explanation of exactly what happened. Anyone have more on this episode? Thanks in advance.

Oroblanco

 

[Old]

Oro, I have enjoyed your post over the years. One thing that I believe almost to a certainty is one can take what you write as exactly what you mean to convey. Are you saying in this instance you did not mean to imply a Ryan connection to this statement? Really Roy, really? That, bait and switch is out of character for you.

This is what you asked me. Emphasis added: Old - you have brought this up repeatedly, about how "someone" was so "viciously attacked" here on the forum. I presume you are talking about a member who left? What exactly are these horrific verbal attacks? Not trying to be cute, I really must have missed that discussion and would appreciate if you could point me to where these verbal assaults took place? Thanks in advance;

Who left? and what repeated circumstances do you imply Certainly not the current parties and thread being discussed. Who left and what other implication can be drawn from your question. Don't be catty. I know what you meant and what you implied and I responded to it as you requested.

I misunderstood Really I haven't repeatedly said anything in this thread, until now. I said this thread contained the number 1, hands down, bitter and vicious attack on a member during my tenure on this site. I stand by that assessment. And it has zero to do with Ryan and everything to do with a very bad situation that did get out of hand and laid bare and ridiculed someone's life over a long span of years unjustifiably and regrettably so, IMO. I won't rehash the statements because I consider then vile beyond the pale. As has a number of post in this thread. Hince, my questioning why the admonishment of opinions contending outrage on subjects of a MUCH lower scale and magnitude. And why now when far worse was accepted wholesale.

 

[azdave35]

Oro, I have enjoyed your post over the years. One thing that I believe almost to a certainty is one can take what you write as exactly what you mean to convey. Are you saying in this instance you did not mean to imply a Ryan connection to this statement? Really Roy, really? That, bait and switch is out of character for you.

This is what you asked me. Emphasis added: Old - you have brought this up repeatedly, about how "someone" was so "viciously attacked" here on the forum. I presume you are talking about a member who left? What exactly are these horrific verbal attacks? Not trying to be cute, I really must have missed that discussion and would appreciate if you could point me to where these verbal assaults took place? Thanks in advance;

Who left? and what repeated circumstances do you imply Certainly not the current parties and thread being discussed. Who left and what other implication can be drawn from your question. Don't be catty. I know what you meant and what you implied and I responded to it as you requested.

I misunderstood Really I haven't repeatedly said anything in this thread, until now. I said this thread contained the number 1, hands down, bitter and vicious attack on a member during my tenure on this site. I stand by that assessment. And it has zero to do with Ryan and everything to do with a very bad situation that did get out of hand and laid bare and ridiculed someone's life over a long span of years unjustifiably and regrettably so, IMO. I won't rehash the statements because I consider then vile beyond the pale. As has a number of post in this thread. Hince, my questioning why the admonishment of opinions contending outrage on subjects of a MUCH lower scale and magnitude. And why now when far worse was accepted wholesale.

lynda....it seems there are a few people here that feel you and i are undercover agents for ryan.....lol...

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Aren't you dave ? Lynda, join Dave, Oro, and I ??

 

[azdave35]

Aren't you dave ? Lynda, join Dave, Oro, and I ??

yes sir..reporting for duty sir

 

[Old]

Jose, I got the coffee right here. Dunkin Donuts original..

Whatever. Its a strange world. Dave and I have some espionage and new world order stuff to attend to so I'm getting my coffee in early.

Tack 2 Dave, What's your 20? 10-4, standing by. LOL. Oh! that my life was all that interesting.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro, I have enjoyed your post over the years. One thing that I believe almost to a certainty is one can take what you write as exactly what you mean to convey. Are you saying in this instance you did not mean to imply a Ryan connection to this statement? Really Roy, really? That, bait and switch is out of character for you.

This is what you asked me. Emphasis added: Old - you have brought this up repeatedly, about how "someone" was so "viciously attacked" here on the forum. I presume you are talking about a member who left? What exactly are these horrific verbal attacks? Not trying to be cute, I really must have missed that discussion and would appreciate if you could point me to where these verbal assaults took place? Thanks in advance;

Who left? and what repeated circumstances do you imply Certainly not the current parties and thread being discussed. Who left and what other implication can be drawn from your question. Don't be catty. I know what you meant and what you implied and I responded to it as you requested.

I misunderstood Really I haven't repeatedly said anything in this thread, until now. I said this thread contained the number 1, hands down, bitter and vicious attack on a member during my tenure on this site. I stand by that assessment. And it has zero to do with Ryan and everything to do with a very bad situation that did get out of hand and laid bare and ridiculed someone's life over a long span of years unjustifiably and regrettably so, IMO. I won't rehash the statements because I consider then vile beyond the pale. As has a number of post in this thread. Hince, my questioning why the admonishment of opinions contending outrage on subjects of a MUCH lower scale and magnitude. And why now when far worse was accepted wholesale.

Old, I can say the exact same thing, as I have very much enjoyed your posts (most anyway) and found you to be an excellent researcher. You have posted (in several threads not just this one singular) a defense for your friend Ryan. In this thread I have failed to see the connection, especially concerning the mule references which are usually aimed at our resident arriero Real de Tayopa and intended in good humor, not as a real insult. Where exactly are those posts that were attacking Ryan? And YES, I did NOT intend any kind of "oblique" references to Ryan whatsoever. I do not believe in being obtuse or playing word games at all. Straight from the shoulder is the way I prefer it, and (hopefully) also the way I try to tell it.

It is honorable to stick up for a friend, especially when that friend is not present to defend themselves. I have no problem with your defense of your friend. That said, misunderstandings DO happen, the written word is always far more harsh than the spoken word (if I were to say that Bill Riley and Loke are a pair of stinkers while we were sitting around a campfire, they would laugh, but over the internet it might be taken as a terrible insult) so please in future (this to everyone) if we wish to verbally attack someone, let us make it clear that it is directly aimed at said person(s) so that fewer misunderstandings might arise?

As this post (like many others in this thread) is very far off topic, my apologies to the thread owner. I suppose it was inevitable as the topic matter itself is one of controversy, with much emotional involvement and personal beliefs that are difficult if not impossible to address with impartiality. It could be of great interest, if we could discuss it impartially.

Good luck and good hunting Old and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Old]

>>>In this thread I have failed to see the connection, <<<<< That's because there ain't one. Not until you made one. <g> THAT's the issue.

I do have thoughts and opinions where Ryan and his pursuits are not at play. Do you and others here not understand this I am my own person. Somewhere in the background I hear....."I'm a grown damn woman for goodness sakes..."

I'd like to think I could post a comment on this forum where you or anyone else didn't immediately attribute all context and motive to Ryan's project. There is life beyond that format. Deal

 

[Oroblanco]

>>>In this thread I have failed to see the connection, <<<<< That's because there ain't one. Not until you made one. <g> THAT's the issue.

I do have thoughts and opinions where Ryan and his pursuits are not at play. Do you and others here not understand this I am my own person. Somewhere in the background I hear....."I'm a grown damn woman for goodness sakes..."

I'd like to think I could post a comment on this forum where you or anyone else didn't immediately attribute all context and motive to Ryan's project. There is life beyond that format. Deal

Old I only posted about your defense posts ONE time. I have not "immediately" attributed all context and motive to Ryan's project concerning your posts. You brought up Ryan in an earlier post, before I did, in connection with the mule and marriage, which topics I failed to see the connection hence my post to you. This is why I asked about where these verbal, "vicious" (your term) assaults were in this thread. Are you now saying that you have not posted some defensive posts for Ryan, in several threads?

I do not have a dog in the fight viz Ryan and his project. I hope he does well with it and look forward to the day he will make it public. I get the impression you feel as if you personally are being attacked for posting your own opinions etc which is not the case. Where and when we disagree, there is nothing personal about it. If ever I were to be upset with you, personally, there would not be any doubt about it and it would be very clear, not obtuse. On the other hand, I could take much the same position as you did here, that it seems that everyone gets upset when ever I post anything in the thread as it usually gets a number of counter-responses, at times to the point that I wonder if I were to say the sky is blue, that some people would take issue with that statement! In short

Good luck and good hunting to you, my apologies to the thread owner (again) for the off-topic post.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

ok Old, then you can be our backer, I & my dove. as wel as Ryan. I have to retype every so often, she has just enough weight to activate the keys as she searches for any cookie crumbs lost between the keys.bt she is cute.

p,s. it took six tries to type this, lj g 4rw2tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttthelping me to typeios caused by my Dove??w ca an I sayana sheep herder

p.p.s. you have to watch that Montana sheep herder, even if he is my assoc in Tayopa ( he conned me with his sweet talk )

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro, I have enjoyed your post over the years. One thing that I believe almost to a certainty is one can take what you write as exactly what you mean to convey. Are you saying in this instance you did not mean to imply a Ryan connection to this statement? Really Roy, really? That, bait and switch is out of character for you.

This is what you asked me. Emphasis added: Old - you have brought this up repeatedly, about how "someone" was so "viciously attacked" here on the forum. I presume you are talking about a member who left? What exactly are these horrific verbal attacks? Not trying to be cute, I really must have missed that discussion and would appreciate if you could point me to where these verbal assaults took place? Thanks in advance;

Who left? and what repeated circumstances do you imply Certainly not the current parties and thread being discussed. Who left and what other implication can be drawn from your question. Don't be catty. I know what you meant and what you implied and I responded to it as you requested.

I misunderstood Really I haven't repeatedly said anything in this thread, until now. I said this thread contained the number 1, hands down, bitter and vicious attack on a member during my tenure on this site. I stand by that assessment. And it has zero to do with Ryan and everything to do with a very bad situation that did get out of hand and laid bare and ridiculed someone's life over a long span of years unjustifiably and regrettably so, IMO. I won't rehash the statements because I consider then vile beyond the pale. As has a number of post in this thread. Hince, my questioning why the admonishment of opinions contending outrage on subjects of a MUCH lower scale and magnitude. And why now when far worse was accepted wholesale.

Lynda,

There have been a few others here who feel they were viciously attacked. My own interaction with Ryan, showed him to be very thin skinned and quick to fly off the handle when I had a different opinion than he did. That has happened with many members who crossed verbal swords with me. Over the years, that's been a common occurrence between Aurum and I.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Old]

Oro wrote: >>>>You brought up Ryan in an earlier post, before I did, in connection with the mule and marriage, which topics I failed to see the connection hence my post to you. >>>

Just to belabor the debate.. would you direct me to where I said this? I don't think you will find it. And; I hope you will be a gentle enough person to admit so.

Oro further wrote: >>>This is why I asked about where these verbal, "vicious" (your term) assaults were in this thread. Are you now saying that you have not posted some defensive posts for Ryan, in several threads? >>>>

I really don't think I have mentioned Ryan for several months. Research and project involvement, yes; when accusations have been made, but only for clarity. There HAVE been assertions of me being his spokesman recently, but not by me. That's what gets so dang old about having to, ONCE again, reaffirm I'm my own person who does have independent thoughts.

The most recent post to which I believe you may be referring has nothing to do with Ryan and was made around the middle of October. This was in defense of an elderly "witness", (female) which was taken totally out of context and presented for something that it was not. That too, I felt was a below the belt hit.

I think I'm seeing a trend and parallel here. Which if correct, I can live with.

 

[Old]

Joe,

I'm sorry that happened with you in your discussions. So far; I haven't had a heated argument with Ryan. His temperament seems better than mine<g>. We have had differences of opinion on occasion and there have been lots of areas to bring up conflicting points of view just to get them on the table. None of those discussions have been heated. At least I didn't think so.

In general, I'm my own worst enemy. I'm not a "me too" type person and don't often write a "yeah, I agree type post". Even when I strongly agree. I usually only post when I have a different view point.......which makes me the argumentative poster.

 

[EarnieP]

Hey, did you guys ever hear the story about the time Sasquatch tried to steal my corn flakes?

 

[azdave35]

Joe,

I'm sorry that happened with you in your discussions. So far; I haven't had a heated argument with Ryan. His temperament seems better than mine<g>. We have had differences of opinion on occasion and there have been lots of areas to bring up conflicting points of view just to get them on the table. None of those discussions have been heated. At least I didn't think so.

In general, I'm my own worst enemy. I'm not a "me too" type person and don't often write a "yeah, I agree type post". Even when I strongly agree. I usually only post when I have a different view point.......which makes me the argumentative poster.

i've never had any kind of argument with ryan....mainly because i have no interest in the stone maps...i am interested in the project he is working on..but mainly because of the historical finds..as far as the stone maps go..they should have been fed into a jaw crusher years ago...it would have saved alot of money and misery for hundreds of people...lynda...i guess i am considered an argumentative poster also..i reckon i piss quite a few off on here cuz i've been called every name in the book by some on here....lol...i'm usually known on here as inbred , backwards , toothless , gun toting , racist hillbilly...i'm sure i left out a few but someone will probably bring me up to speed...lol....as i've said before on here...it's just entertainment...a laugh or two a couple times a day

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro wrote: >>>>You brought up Ryan in an earlier post, before I did, in connection with the mule and marriage, which topics I failed to see the connection hence my post to you. >>>

Just to belabor the debate.. would you direct me to where I said this? I don't think you will find it. And; I hope you will be a gentle enough person to admit so.

Oro further wrote: >>>This is why I asked about where these verbal, "vicious" (your term) assaults were in this thread. Are you now saying that you have not posted some defensive posts for Ryan, in several threads? >>>>

I really don't think I have mentioned Ryan for several months. Research and project involvement, yes; when accusations have been made, but only for clarity. There HAVE been assertions of me being his spokesman recently, but not by me. That's what gets so dang old about having to, ONCE again, reaffirm I'm my own person who does have independent thoughts.

The most recent post to which I believe you may be referring has nothing to do with Ryan and was made around the middle of October. This was in defense of an elderly "witness", (female) which was taken totally out of context and presented for something that it was not. That too, I felt was a below the belt hit.

I think I'm seeing a trend and parallel here. Which if correct, I can live with.

Well I am in the dark as to what ever "trend" or parallel you are referring to here. I had responded to a post you had made, which is NOW apparently vanished. In future I will make it a point to always quote the posts. As evidence of that earlier post having existed, we have your own following (reply) post which I quote:

OMG...........perhaps a re-read of the early post in this thread might be in order. Or; maybe not and better left in peace. Those parties have established a semi cease fire although no apology from the offender has been forthcoming. Perhaps privately. I certainly hope so. That WAS vicious.

PS: Clue: Last I knew, Ryan was/is not married and didn't have a mule. Do you guys really think I'm nothing but a hall monitor on one person's behalf? My comments are about glaring hypocrisy and not some secret agenda that seems to intrigue some. Geez......

If I were making it up, why would you have responded to "re-read" earlier posts in the thread, or responded to the part about Ryan? Are you saying now that I simply pulled the whole thing about Ryan, the mule and marriage out of the air? I am surprised that you would go there. I do not know why you seem to think anyone is ganging up against you, personally. As far as I know, there is no secret 'cabal' among us, only friendship (or at least acquaintances) although I am partners with Loke on a few things and with Real de Tayopa on another, and consider Cactusjumper a very close friend, this does not extend to any debates online and often we are at odds online for that matter. Disagreements have nothing to do with friendship IMHO.


Better yet, I think I will just quit posting in this thread as it is clear that it is a problem. Hopefully the actual discussion about the Apache of the southwest will continue. Good luck to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

PS for anyone interested in the Apache of the southwest, besides the excellent books already recommended and in particular concerning Geronimo, he dictated an autobiography which is available online (free) at:
https://books.google.com/books?id=AvYaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false
Still hunting for a copy of Al Seiber, Chief of Scouts cheap but so far it looks like I may have to bite down hard and pay the full price.

 

[Old]

Oro,

This saddens me. >>Are you saying now that I simply pulled the whole thing about Ryan, the mule and marriage out of the air? I am surprised that you would go there.<<

You quoted in that same question the entire post where I made any mention of Ryan. If you are saying there was something before that, then yes; I contend your assumption of its existence came out of thin air. And worse; it confirms to me that regardless of what I actually write, you read it as unwanted propaganda for Ryan. Ryan neither needs nor wants propaganda from me or you, and above all, this thread would be the LAST place to put it.

My entire posts in question are post 487 (un edited), post 496 (un edited), post 497 (un edited) and post 503 edited to change the word "contenting" to "contending" in the fourth paragraph.

Obviously, you doubt me. Wayne and Deducer have stated they save all posts. I invite them to show otherwise. Have at it.

It will take me awhile to think about how to, or if I want to respond. Never in my entire existence has my truthfulness been called into question with the vigor I see in these posts.

Best wishes, to all

Lynda

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro,

This saddens me. >>Are you saying now that I simply pulled the whole thing about Ryan, the mule and marriage out of the air? I am surprised that you would go there.<<

You quoted in that same question the entire post where I made any mention of Ryan. If you are saying there was something before that, then yes; I contend your assumption of its existence came out of thin air. And worse; it confirms to me that regardless of what I actually write, you read it as unwanted propaganda for Ryan. Ryan neither needs nor wants propaganda from me or you, and above all, this thread would be the LAST place to put it.

My entire posts in question are post 487 (un edited), post 496 (un edited), post 497 (un edited) and post 503 edited to change the word "contenting" to "contending" in the fourth paragraph.

Obviously, you doubt me. Wayne and Deducer have stated they save all posts. I invite them to show otherwise. Have at it.

It will take me awhile to think about how to, or if I want to respond. Never in my entire existence has my truthfulness been called into question with the vigor I see in these posts.

Best wishes, to all

Lynda

Well I had intended to drop out of this. However, as you are now calling me a liar, I will point to your post in reply to my first one, in which you were defending that post which has now mysteriously vanished.

OMG...........perhaps a re-read of the early post in this thread might be in order. Or; maybe not and better left in peace. Those parties have established a semi cease fire although no apology from the offender has been forthcoming. Perhaps privately. I certainly hope so. That WAS vicious.

PS: Clue: Last I knew, Ryan was/is not married and didn't have a mule. Do you guys really think I'm nothing but a hall monitor on one person's behalf? My comments are about glaring hypocrisy and not some secret agenda that seems to intrigue some. Geez......

If you had no previous post (which I was asking about, as I failed to see any connection to Ryan but thought you MIGHT have mistaken some of the barb-tossing involving Real de Tayopa as being meant for Ryan) then why would you respond with "OMG" and make that point about "PS Clue: &c" ? Why would I have bothered to ask you about the Ryan connection at all, if I had not just read your post that raised him? It struck me as odd at the time, and now I can see. I now realize that I should have quoted your previous post, which posting had led to my questioning YOU at all, for SOMEONE has indeed removed it in the meantime. Otherwise I certainly would never have raised the questions at all.

Whether Wayne or Deducer are saving posts, it would take someone having to save the posts about every minute, to avoid this kind of thing. It is 100% possible that no one saved that post of yours.

Anyway the best of luck to you, sorry that you have "never had your truthfulness questioned" so fiercely ever in your life, as you have now impugned my own. I absolutely deny that I was reading YOUR posts as any kind of "propaganda" concerning Ryan or his work, although some of your previous posts in other threads are certainly in defense of him, to the point of practically demanding there be no discussion viz the stone maps until Ryan releases his results. I apologize for asking you anything, and will avoid it in future.

Oroblanco

 

[Azquester]

Peace offering?

View attachment 1389420

The Apache believed in "Bigfoot" (Sasquatch).

View attachment 1389421

Geronimo said he once had his corn flakes stolen by one. Or was it Post Toasty's?