Swamp Gold

[Bigcypresshunter]

Dont forget this one.

"In September of 1944, a Florida State Game Officer ****** led a small party into the Everglades and located what they feel that may have been the last campsite of the Confederates who buried the missing gold bullion. The old campsite was overgrown with brush, but the group still found Confederate relics." ..."rumors still persist"...



(******Game Officer's name witheld by me).

 

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[Bridge End Farm]

Do you mean just this payroll Cypress is after or in general

This falls under my quote "However, there is no reputable or verifiable data (historical or modern) that will support the humongous amounts of monies buried."

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The "payroll" Cypress is after appears to come from a treasure hunting periodical. It lacks any reputable or verifiable data. Evidently, it does not even qualify as a legend, as the periodical appears to be the single source of the story, and not based on real events or incidents.

Yes, of course, it came from several periodicals. I have never denied that. I am trying to find reputable verifiable data to back it up and to be honest, SWR, you are absolutely no help.


BTW what periodical has the mint 1861 IndianHeads coming out of the well in 1958? Im still trying to verify this one, I only have an eyewitness account, but interesting that BridgeEnd has the same account in his old notes. Often fantasy has same basis of truth than has become twisted or exaggerated over the years.

 

[Bridge End Farm]

Do you mean just this payroll Cypress is after or in general

This falls under my quote "However, there is no reputable or verifiable data (historical or modern) that will support the humongous amounts of monies buried."

The "payroll" Cypress is after appears to come from a treasure hunting periodical. It lacks any reputable or verifiable data. Evidently, it does not even qualify as a legend, as the periodical appears to be the single source of the story, and not based on real events or incidents.

Thats a fair statement of belief I guess when there are things some folks don't know
which I personally don't mind as it keeps less folks from looking. Kinda like the early 70s it was much easier to find items as only a few were MDing.

I have learned just from this site itself and others that to put all your eggs out in one basket where another can take for his own use can be costly and ruin many years of hard work in research, study and investigation. Leaving yourself with empty hands when it comes to the discovery.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I've actually have helped you out.

only in your own mind.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

If you search through those old periodicals, and I dont, you will see some treasures that are fact or have been found. That is what I meant by the Atocha statement. I cannot dismiss something just because its in a Lost Treasures periodical.


SWR, I started this thread because I dont know where to search. It may be fantasy, I dont know. If you have really searched, I thank you. But I have a funny feeling you havent searched much and you are only posting to criticize and I dont quite understand it. Please tell me Im wrong.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

SWR, I started this thread because I dont know where to search. It may be fanstasy, I dont know. If you have really searched, I thank you. But I have a funny feeling you havent searched much and you are only posting to criticize and I dont quite understand it.

bigcypresshunter, I've been truthful and tried to help you out from the get-go on your fantasy quest. I cannot help it if the results are not what you wanted. Sure, I can post the typical "good luck and hope you find the treasure" to help ease the pain...but, that will not change the end results

What results? LOL. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it seems that is all you are giving me. Maybe if you give me a list of the places you searched in your quest to help ease my pain and maybe I will find something you overlooked.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Look its no big deal SWR and I hope we are still friends. Believe me I am not in any pain or suffering if this is not verifiable. Im NOT a professional treasure hunter. I love the Everglades and I spend a lot of time out there hunting, camping and canoeing. I worked for the State of Florida this past hunting season, I had permission to camp on the Indian Reservationand met a lot of interesting people. I will post some pics here from my new camera when I figure out how to do it. Its too bad there are so few monetary treasures to be found in such a beautiful area. But there are still some clues I need to further pursue and one of them is the 1940's Florida Game Officer's statement.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

The huge amount mentioned as the payroll may be a clue as to what it truly is. CS money had devalued terrifically near the end of the war (rather like our current fiat money has been doing more slowly) to the point where they were exchanging paper currency for silver at the rate of $70 paper to $1 silver. If the payroll was CSA paper currency rather than gold or silver, a figure of $200,000 would have had a real value of more like $2857. If such paper survived being buried in a wet location (not impossible but unlikely) it might have some collectors value today, perhaps more than what it would have been worth in silver at the time.

The Confederate pay structure was modeled after that of the US Army. Privates continued to be paid at the prewar rate of $11 per month until June '64, when the pay of all enlisted men was raised $7 per month. Confederate officer's pay was a few dollars lower than that of the their Union counterparts. A Southern B.G for example, drew $301 instead of $315 per month; Confederate colonels of the infantry received $195, and those of artillery, engineers, and cavalry go $210. While the inflation of Confederate Money reduced the actual value of a Southerner's military pay, this was somewhat counterbalanced by the fact that promotion policies in the South were more liberal.
As for the pay of noncommissioned officers, when Southern privates were making $11 per month, corporals were making $13, "buck" sergeants $17, first sergeants $20, and engineer sergeants were drawing $34. About the same ratio existed in the Northern army between the pay of privates and noncommissioned officers.
Soldiers were supposed to be paid every two months in the field, but they were fortunate if they got their pay at four-month intervals (in the Union Army) and authentic instances are recorded where they went six and eight months. Payment in the Confederate Army was even slower and less regular.
Source: "The Civil War Dictionary" by Mark M. Boatner

If we use these figures we can estimate that it would require over $10,000 to pay an understrength infantry regiment (less than 400 men as many CS inf regts were by 1865) for a single month; (I got $10,613, so will work from there) a brigade usually had four or five regiments plus a command staff and a few more officers, I came up with $44,990 for a single month's pay for one infantry brigade of four regiments (all understrength) with a command staff of thirty and a brigadier general commanding, with a few staff officers (a colonel, lieutenant, plus noncoms a sergeant and corporal).

Considering that it was quite common for pay to be in arrears FOUR MONTHS and quite a few documented instances of the men having to go six or even eight months without pay, calculate an arrears in pay of a five months, a figure of $200,000 might be realistic if for example the payroll was intended for a single brigade.

Has anyone tried tracking this down from the angle of Confederate officers' reports from Florida? For instance we know there were two GA brigades in Florida for the battle of Olustee in late 1864, (Colquitt's and Harrison's) perhaps one or more brigades were in arrears for their pay - in which case we might have requests from commanders for the pay to be sent. Maybe even a report of a shipment of a payroll that has gone "missing"? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Has anyone tried tracking this down from the angle of Confederate officers' reports from Florida? For instance we know there were two GA brigades in Florida for the battle of Olustee in late 1864, (Colquitt's and Harrison's) perhaps one or more brigades were in arrears for their pay - in which case we might have requests from commanders for the pay to be sent. Maybe even a report of a shipment of a payroll that has gone "missing"? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

No I havent. Im good at IDing widgets on the "What Is It Forum" and I have helped many members but I admit I am not good researching Civil War. I have been concentrating my efforts on finding the 1861 IndianHead location, questioning Game Officers and/or relatives and I have searched some areas where relics were found. Maybe I should concentrate on the book researching part before I go back out to the field. My bad perhaps. Like SWR said, what I have is mostly from periodicals. I thank everyone for their efforts.

 

[Oroblanco]

BigCy - I respectfully disagree, it is not "your bad" - just another possible way to research this story. I just spent a few minutes skimming through CS official correspondence and while I have not found a specific incident, the tenor of the letters and reports certainly are at least suggestive. Example showing a request for a HUGE amount of money

RICHMOND VA August 12 1864
lion GA TRENHOLM Secretary of the Treasury

SIR I have the honor to return herewith the estimates made by the various bureaus of the War Department of the amount of foreign funds required by them in the next six months to meet their wants abroad These estimates are as follows
Quartermaster's Department $570 000
Commissary Department $511 000
Ordnance Bureau $162 000
Niter and Mining Bureau $135 000
Medical Department $113,000
Total _ _ $1,491,000

http://books.google.com/books?id=tM...4&pg=PA589&ci=34,1105,907,353&source=bookclip"The War of the Rebellion A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies By United States War Dept, Robert Nicholson Scott, Henry Martyn Lazelle, George Breckenridge Davis, Leslie J. Perry, United States War Records Office, Joseph William Kirkley, United States Congress. House, United States Record and Pension Office, Fred Crayton Ainsworth, John Sheldon Moodey, Calvin Duvall Cowles

Another with even larger amounts

Estimate for funds required for the Medical Department CS Army for the period of six months commencing January 1 18 65 and ending June

So JUCS

For purchase of medical and hospital supplies Medicines $8 000 000
Instruments $200,000
Books for hospital and regimental records $100 000
Hospital stores _ $2,000,000
Bedding $2,000,000
Furniture dressings &c _ $2,000,000
$14,300,000

For purchase of hospital clothing required by act of Congress approved September 27 1802 entitled An act to better provide for the sick and wounded in the Army in hospitals $500 000 For purchase of 312.000 gallons alcoholic stimulants required for Medical Department for medical and hospital purposes for an army of 500,000 men $4 000 000 For establishment and support of military hospitals S100 000 For pay of private physicians employed by contract $250 000 For pay of nurses and cooks not enlisted or volunteer $350 000 For pay of hospital stewards $100 000 For pay of matrons assistant matrons and ward matrons $350 000 For pay of ward masters $200 000 For pay of hospital laundresses $150 000 Total $20,300,000
SP MOORE Surgeon General CS Army CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA SURGEON GENERAL'S OFFICE Richmond Vn Approved JA SEDDON

http://books.google.com/books?id=tM...64&pg=PA777&ci=28,494,934,651&source=bookclip">The War of the Rebellion A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies By United States War Dept, Robert Nicholson Scott, Henry Martyn Lazelle, George Breckenridge Davis, Leslie J. Perry, United States War Records Office, Joseph William Kirkley, United States Congress. House, United States Record and Pension Office, Fred Crayton Ainsworth, John Sheldon Moodey, Calvin Duvall Cowles

As you can see, it is a fact that various agents within the CSA government (and military authorities) were requesting quite large amounts of money, and a surprising number of transactions were specifically requested to be in foreign funds (sterling and gold) so a payroll of $200,000 is not so astonishing whatsoever. If it was the payroll intended for a single company of men then it becomes unbelievable, but much larger military units were commonplace in the Civil War; as you probably know both sides put literally hundreds of brigades into the field during the war and a payroll in arrears for a single brigade could easily top $200,000.

This post is already pretty long but I think you will find the letter of that starts on page 155 to be interesting
http://books.google.com/books?id=tM...officers+reports+official+record+florida+1864
the monies being mentioned are in English pounds sterling, he is complaining about being short of funds etc.

You may find the roots of this story, which appeared in a periodical (I do not hold periodicals in such low degree as some folks) and if I should happen to find it I will sure let you know amigo. I rather enjoy reading the historical documents, and now have a good excuse!

My apologies for such a long-winded post, just wanted to point out that large sums of money were being requested (and shipped for that matter) often in foreign funds, so this "fantasy" stands a fair chance of being a true account of an incident. At worst we learn more history, and that is always rewarding!

As always good luck and good hunting, I hope you find that treasure amigo!
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

WOW mi coffee making buddy ORO: Excellent work.


Cypress, go go, remember Tayopa was even more nebulous and only an obscure, mountain legend with no concrete evidence, even the Jesuits who operated it denied it's existance, however, I did find it and now own it. Now it is your turn, go get it.

Remember those famous, but so true words.

"it is better to have tried and to fail, than to have never tried at all",

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Bridge End Farm]

Big C

Hope you got a library card cause time as come, you needed one for you to start reading

check your email it is pretty simple the legend code I gave at front of it

need any help decphering let me know thats everything I have on references

if it pays off remember me

I would appreciate that list staying between you and I

Thanks

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

WOW mi coffee making buddy ORO: Excellent work.


Cypress, go go, remember Tayopa was even more nebulous and only an obscure, mountain legend with no concrete evidence, even the Jesuits who operated it denied it's existance, however, I did find it and now own it. Now it is your turn, go get it.

Remember those famous, but so true words.

"it is better to have tried and to fail, than to have never tried at all",

Don Jose de La Mancha

You found Tayopa?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Big C

Hope you got a library card cause time as come, you needed one for you to start reading

check your email it is pretty simple the legend code I gave at front of it

need any help decphering let me know thats everything I have on references

if it pays off remember me

I would appreciate that list staying between you and I

Thanks

OK I got it thanks. Thats quite a list of books/articles on the subject. Where did you get all this? You must have been collecting this for a long time. Maybe this is what I have been looking for. Thanks again. I guess Im headed to the library.

 

[Bridge End Farm]

Big C

Hope you got a library card cause time as come, you needed one for you to start reading

check your email it is pretty simple the legend code I gave at front of it

need any help decphering let me know thats everything I have on references

if it pays off remember me

I would appreciate that list staying between you and I

Thanks

OK I got it thanks. Thats quite a list of books/articles on the subject. Where did you get all this? You must have been collecting this for a long time. Maybe this is what I have been looking for. Thanks again. I guess Im headed to the library.

yes it is years of study, I think you will find the well in there too if I remember right

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Big C

Hope you got a library card cause time as come, you needed one for you to start reading

check your email it is pretty simple the legend code I gave at front of it

need any help decphering let me know thats everything I have on references

if it pays off remember me

I would appreciate that list staying between you and I

Thanks

OK I got it thanks. Thats quite a list of books/articles on the subject. Where did you get all this? You must have been collecting this for a long time. Maybe this is what I have been looking for. Thanks again. I guess Im headed to the library.

yes it is years of study, I think you will find the well in there too if I remember right

Ill keep you informed of any progress.

 

[ivan salis]

I read a lot a whole lot on many differant matters * -- there is a lot of very interesting information out there -- often not much is said by those who know where it is and what it is --for 2 main reasons ---#1 the info is housed in archie "knowledge" places -- ie collge and state "collections" -- and since archies don't like "treasure hunters" and weekend warriors --they keep the existance of these reams and reams of info very quiet -- only sharing them with fellow eggheads * once in a while normal folks "sniff out" these storage places and sources of info and spend hour upon digging thru these vast sums of knowledge looking for valuible nuggets of knowledge *long forgotten ( it was the charts that were found in the national archives that put "name" to the 1715 fleet after all)

the #2 reason is that once one treasure hunter finds a clue * he "hoards" the info gleaned from it for fear someone else will find his "precious"--- and if another starts looking for "his treasure "-he will trash talk thier "info" / throw red herrings in their way --- its the nature of the beast sadly.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

I ran across a brief little description in the Official Records, mentioning that Jeff Davis' personal belongings had been captured - IN FLORIDA

The war of the rebellion: a compilation of the official records of the Union and Confederate armies. / Series 1 - Volume 47 (Part I) pp 167

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-....edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ANU4519-0098

Now I realize that most or all of the CSA treasury was disposed of in Georgia or between there and Richmond, yet somehow Davis' personal belongings were found near Waldo Florida in June 1865. Is anyone willing to say that absolutely no CSA treasury monies also ended up in Florida? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Bridge End Farm]

This doesn't apply to what Big C is after.

When we talk records/keepings, didn't the Confederate Secretary Of State traveled/escaped with Union Forces after them through the whole state of Florida minus the panhandle enroute to the Bahamas for safe haven. Yet though there is not much on his flight as far as the wheres, hows, etc. of the escape for example.

I know of places they hid and evaded that isn't in the record books but from old timers that families assisted in thier safe travels. Does that make those places a myth? I don't think so

Now I am not them but the last thing I personally would do is write where I put something if I was put in charge of it and responsible for it regardless of who they were. They'd have to take me to it for me to show them where.