Swamp Gold

[ivan salis]

so if you found lots of CSA gold --enough to set you for life ( if you keep quiet and melted it down selling it off slowly bit by bit) * you would instead inform the US GOVT about it and and have them take all of it --with you getting nothing out of it but the "fame" of once having found it ?

thats like a dog chasing his tail -- fine now you caught it --- now what good is it to ya?

if you can't or will not keep any of it , then why bother spending all that time ,effort , energy and money on finding such a non productive thing? --

where I come from thats known as a "money pit" --all $$$$ in and nothing coming out.

so you say all they want they is the "historical info"? -- fine then share the info ---when your done send em a picture -- once upon a time these x number of gold confederate bars weighing so much were buried here at xyz farm -- ok THAT WAY they got their "historical info" . think they will be happy with that ?--nope they will want the gold bars .-- so sorry nothing for the working stiff.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

I think its way too early to decide what I would do with the gold. We dont even know if it exists. Also IMO treasure is always worth much more if you have history to go with it. Also coins or marked bars would also be worth much more than mere melt down value. It would be a sin to melt down Spanish doubloons or CSA marked gold bars.

I was only commenting on this dilemma. I realize archaeologists we are not. But we must be careful not to appear to be looters of historical sites. I like to think of ourselves as treasure hunters with an extreme interest in history.

 

[ivan salis]

sadly there would be no way to bring this out in the open legally and leaving it "historically intact" without risking total loss of it to the US GOVT , as such its rather unique treasure.

if a treasure can be found left intact historically and legally revealed so you can profiet by it --then by all means do so.

but if its one of those few rare cases where the "grubbermint" will take it all --if its reveled you found it . -- mums the word.

I 'm a realist -- if I do the all the work (the research, time ,effort, sweat and money) / I'm going to profiet somewhat from it -- not just fork it over for nothing. ----as the famous spanish say goes ---nada por nada , nada por gratis , nada por amore .--- (nothing for nothing , nothing for "free" , nothing for "love") -- ie --there is no freebies in life, you want something you gotta buy it , and trying to buy "love" does not work.

 

[Oroblanco]

SWR wrote

I know it is just tongue in cheek, and the tall-tale about stuff being buried in the swamp is just a total fabrication (made up)…

This is YOUR OPINION correct? For there is a fair amount of evidence that the Confederate treasury did in fact "vanish" and one of the likely end games was in fact to bury it in a swamp in Florida, probably somewhere not far off the route Davis and party intended to take to escape, and safely out of Federal hands. There are plenty of stories that are just that, stories (in some cases simple misunderstandings) but this one has very real roots. Of course if you now deny what Gen. Thomas and Gen. Stoneman wrote, well you are entitled to believe and disbelieve what ever you wish.

As for fears of the Feds seizing everything, if you do NOT file a Treasure Trove claim on anything you discover, you will face that as a strong probability. You can get legal ownership through a Treasure Trove claim, which does involve some red tape etc and of course the Feds get half, BUT you would have clear title to the rest. You would probably have to pay income taxes etc but there are some legal deductions so that amount would be negotiable. It may seem harsh to lose half when you could simply keep quiet and keep all, but the risks involved are simply not worth it. Half a loaf, and in this case half of MILLIONS $$$ is surely better than NONE. The process of filing for a Treasure Trove was the subject of an interesting thread elsewhere here in T-net, anyone interested can look it up, much excellent information came from a Forest Service ranger who actually handled the apps etc. Then again, you could end up with far more than half, if it ended up in court, just look at the story of the "Ship of Gold" - the finders got over 90% of the booty and all legal! Besides, wouldn't it be neat to be able to show the treasure on TV, for the rest of the world to enjoy, along with the story of how it was found and recovered - and without any fears of being arrested?

Good luck amigos I look forward to seeing you on TV showing the gold bars stamped with the CSA!
Oroblanco

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

That's the norm for a legend, right? Deep in the swamp where nobody lived yadda-yadda.

Dont forget, the entire South Florida was swamp back then.

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

Each time I venture into the discussions of Confederate Treasure, I find myself rereading A.J. Hanna's "Flight Into Oblivion". Chapter II is called "Confederate Gold" and gives a pretty good account of how much they actually had........and what happened to it.

The historical accuracy of this book is assured by the extensive References, Bibliography and Acknowledgments in the back of the book. Hanna's research is thorough, and the results is a very well written historical account. The reality of what took place after the fall of the Confederacy, is every bit as exciting as any fictional account.

My copy of Hanna's book is a signed first edition, and is the only (quasi) Confederate treasure I ever expect to possess.

Anyone seeking Confederate gold, would do well to start their search with this book, rather than any treasure hunter's story. That's just my personal opinion, and I could be all wrong. I would still recommend reading the book, which will give you a better perspective on the various treasure tales.

Good hunting,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

[Davis' hesitation nearly dooms flight

by Brent Hughes

Confederate government officials came within a few hours of not getting out of Richmond as resistance collapsed. The delay must be attributed primarily to hesitation on the part of President Jefferson Davis to face reality. Indeed, it had been obvious to most people for more than a year that the war was lost, but Davis had held himself aloof from all the evidence.

The West Point graduate considered himself a military leader, not a civilian executive. On Sunday, April 2, 1865, Davis was attending services in St. Paul's church when he received a telegram from Gen. Robert E. Lee advising him that Richmond must be evacuated immediately. Davis resisted for a time but finally gave the order.

He and his Cabinet officers would leave first and set up a new government southwest of Richmond at Danville. Everyone else was to save whatever they could and follow.

Treasury officers had to pack and transport to the railroad depot the cash and other assets in their vaults. Every kind of container was used - boxes, chests, barrels - whatever was available. In spite of widespread panic, these men maintained control of the situation, so we know what valuables left Richmond and what became of them on the hectic journey south.

The Treasury assets consisted of $20 gold pieces, Mexican silver dollars, gold and silver ingots, English gold sovereigns and sacks of silver and copper coins. Someone also brought along a huge quantity of almost worthless Confederate currency and bonds, which the tellers never listed as assets. They also did not count the value of a box of jewelry donated to the government by the ladies of Richmond.

Also aboard the train was $345,000 in gold that represented the assets of the Richmond banks and was accompanied by bank officers. Oddly enough, some Cabinet officers took with them large amounts of U.S. greenbacks, their salaries for several months. Official Treasury assets alone totaled about $500,000.

Thus, we know that when the train left Richmond shortly after midnight, it carried about $845,000 in valuable metals. Watching over it was a confidential secretary to Davis, Capt. Micajah H. Clark, who kept detailed records of disbursements.

During the week at Danville, Treasury tellers exchanged silver coins for Confederate currency at the rate of $1 coin for $70 in bills. This and other expenses reduced the Treasury assets to $327,022.90. At Greensboro, N.C., Davis ordered Clark to pay out $39,000 in coin to Gen. Joseph E. Johnston to meet his payroll.

It was there that Davis and his party separated from the rest of the group and headed for Charlotte by wagon and horseback. Clark transferred $35,000 in gold sovereigns to the president's wagon to pay expenses along the route.

At Charlotte, Clark stored the remaining $253,022.90 in a secure building while Davis tried to reorganize his government. Those efforts failed when it was learned that President Lincoln had been assassinated and the Union military had been ordered to arrest Davis and his associates.

The Confederate president and his party left with a 50-soldier escort. The Treasury wagons followed a different route, with 2,000 troops as guards. Both groups would shrink as they moved south.

At Abbeville, S.C., soldiers began to leave en masse, and the stop at Washington, Ga., saw an almost total disintegration of the Confederate parties. Clark handled disbursements with his usual coolness. Davis appointed him acting treasurer of the Confederate States as he paid out $108,322.90.

That left $144,700 on hand. Incredibly, Davis still hoped to set up a new government in Texas and asked various officials to take money for that purpose. He also ordered two officers named Tidball and Semple to carry $86,000 to Europe. No one knows what happened to them.

Then began the period when Union troops moved toward Washington, Ga., intent on collecting the reward for the capture of Davis. Scouts warned Davis and Clark, who hurriedly paid out the remainder of the Treasury funds to the hundreds of soldiers due back pay. Davis then asked Clark to take back the remaining gold in his wagons and head for Florida. From that money, Clark paid out $9,800 to the president's staff officers as they departed.

Davis soon was captured near Sandersville, Ga., while Clark and his party moved on to the plantation of Sen. David Yulee near Gainesville, Fla. Back at Washington, Ga., Union soldiers stole the jewelry donated by the ladies of Richmond and terrorized the town in their search for Rebel gold.

In Florida, Clark was forced to give the remainder of the gold to Capt. Watson Van Benthuysen, head of Jefferson Davis' Elite Guard. Clark was officially relieved of further responsibility for the funds as the captain first "set aside" $6,500 for Mrs. Davis and her children.

He then divided the rest among the nine men still with the party. Each, including Clark, got $2,000. Two soldiers received $250 each. The captain's last payments were $20 each to the five black servants who had served the president very well. The men then scattered. (Clark settled in Tennessee, where he waited until 1882 before revealing that he still had his vouchers and receipts.)

Back in Georgia, the Richmond bankers tried to get home with the $345,000 in gold coins entrusted to them, but they were attacked by marauders who stole $250,000. The banks later sued the federal government for negligence in failing to provide military escorts. The case dragged on until 1893, when an appeals court awarded them $17,000.

Meanwhile, the Davis family was in desperate need in Canada and asked Van Benthuysen for the $6,500 set aside for it. So far as is known, he sent only $1,500, with no explanation. If Clark ever found out, he probably was outraged.]

BCH,

What happened to your last post?

The account given above is pretty close to what happened to the Confederate Treasury.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I deleted it. Thanks for the information. I will save and study it. I dont know at this point that the missing payroll buried in the swamp has any connection with Jeff Davis' money. Ivan has a theory that it may be blockade runners money. I really dont know.

One of the clues I have is that 1861 mint Indianhead pennies were found in the swamp sinking a hunting camp well in 1958. They thought it was stolen and buried by Seminoles and for some reason didnt dig anywhere. They filled a galvanized bucket with what came up the pipe. Problem is the eye witness cant remember the exact location so long ago. Maybe there is a connection with the missing payroll. Pennies could be part of it. What else would mint pennies be doing buried there in a South Florida swamp? The Seminole wars were over.

 

[ivan salis]

big cy the only point I trying to make is this --when treasure hunting --often its best to think of end game first -- is it worth while thing to be hunting in the first place ? could you even legally keep it if you found it ? -- would you be able to legally revel that you found such a tresure or would you face certain forfeiture of it if word leaked out about it to the US GOVT ? -- the way you approch hunting for it from day 1 is way differant if the treasure can be legally reveled than if it can not .

sadly there are treasures that if found by the adverage joe citizen that will be "strong armed" from them by the US GOVT --( treasure trove laws do not work if the govt claims the money is theirs -- once govt money always govt money)personally I say that if there is any large sum of confederate gold found by us citizens on american soil and the US GOVT becomes aware of it ---count on intense US GOVT interest in the matter of "ownership".

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

If I had ever had the inkling do anything illegal, I wouldnt be able to admit to it here on this public forum.

I think that would be conspiracy and I would be giving the goverment the evidence they may need to prosecute.

 

[ivan salis]

of course not -- mr legal 110 % thats me.

so right away upon finding a huge stash of confederate gold that could make me rich for life , after much effort & time spent researching ,money spent and the sweat and effort of looking for it by me.
I would run right away to to my state govenor , my senator and congreessman telling them where to find "thier" money at. AND KISS IT GOOD BYE WITH NOTHING BUT THE "GLORY" OF THE FIND FOR ME . yep exactly what I'd do. you betcha.

 

[ivan salis]

and to think some folks have the gall to think that lost things belong to the finders of said lost items --huh think of that --other wize there is not much of a reason to look for lost stuff at all --- since every marked or tracible to its past owner item should be properly returned to its "past" owner under that school of thought---

so everything if its "marked" or tracible in anyway belongs forever to whoever lost it .--- fine then let them look for it and find it .--- because normal folks think --hey you lost it and I find it its mine , in most cases.

some folks (me included) however do return clearly marked class rings and other jewelry ( as I have in the past) but "plain" unmarked" goods ---are mine 100% in my veiw. --you lost it too bad , so sad. thats life.

 

[Oroblanco]

SWR wrote

Sure it would. "Finding" something on anyone's property, be it public or private, without following proper protocol could lead to serious consequences.

Listening to the doomsayers and conspiracy theorists whine about the Government "taking" away something that wasn't theirs in the first place always enter these types of fantasy discussions. If it's found on public property...it belongs to the public. No free lunches.

Well if this is all a "FANTASY" discussion, then what possible difference could it make whether someone went about recovering it legally, or illegally? No free lunches? If it is FANTASY then it is always FREE 100%.

It does make me wonder, if a person is so convinced that all this talk of Confederate treasure is nothing but fantasy, why the same person follows the discussion faithfully? Fantasizing? Nothing to worry about SWR, if you are right then it makes little difference whether anything found is recovered legally or illegally, since it is fantasy so doesn't exist.

On the other hand, if SWR is mistaken about this subject being wholly FANTASY, then it is worth your while to do it the legal way. Red tape might be a headache but it is a part of the treasure hunting business in the 21st century.

Here is an article on our Treasure Trove law and results of some recent (large) cases, of course they must have been imaginery/fantasy finds in some folks eyes, but historically when treasure hunters do things the legal way they generally have come out winning. Not so in some foreign countries however, but Florida is still a part of the US right?
http://www.abanet.org/genpractice/magazine/2000/sep/sep2000bradley.html

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find a huge cache of CSA booty!
Oroblanco

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

One of the reasons I started this thread is to see if this story is true. So far neither side has proven anything but there are some clues looking positive and some looking bad. Researching one treasure often discovers another. But to give up now proves nothing. Everyone is welcome to post their opinion.

 

[Oroblanco]

SWR wrote

The typical southern nincompoop stereotype garbage.

Sheesh SWR

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

LOL SWR is very anti-KGC and he feels this is just another southern Knights of the Golden Circle fantasy. I feel Swamp Gold is not KGC related, never was stated as such; but rather paymaster related as stated in the original legend/documentation wherever it is.



As far as discussing to melt or not to melt (the gold), I feel its premature to talk about that at this time.

 

[Bridge End Farm]

One of the reasons I started this thread is to see if this story is true. So far neither side has proven anything but there are some clues looking positive and some looking bad. Researching one treasure often discovers another. But to give up now proves nothing. Everyone is welcome to post their opinion.

I agree on the above, you know I myself knew things that only you knew so maybe in a way that helps knowing that others have knowledge of items etc making it more of just a tale.

I personally believe it was there at the least, unfortunately as Ivan is correct most folks that find something like that really don't report it and slowly thru the years use it to make thier own lives sightly better. Still our wonderful state of Florida has more treasure from spanish and the U S still lost and buried than has been found in my opinion. I believe that to not look and research does provide only one outcome. Nothing.

 

[Oroblanco]

Bigcypresshunter wrote

SWR is very anti-KGC and he feels this is just another southern Knights of the Golden Circle fantasy.

I respectfully do not see any KGC connection with this story. As for the KGC and whether they existed or not, I held much the same opinon as SWR - however a friend who operates an excellent treasure hunting site really opened my eyes about the KGC. The name may not even be what they called themselves, but that the CSA had a sort of "secret service" that was quite active in Canada IS documented. This CSA SS did have financial resources and much of these resources have "disappeared" so COULD be at the root of at least some of the stories about the KGC. All that said, I still fail to see a KGC connection with a report of a paymaster burying a cache of money in the Florida swamp. Whether it is related to the CSA treasury or not is open to debate, personally I tend to agree that it is more likely a blockade runner behind this story. These "stories" do not grow out of thin air in at least 90% of the cases, they are based on real events and incidents.

I have never searched for treasure in the Florida swamps but if they are anything like the eastern VA swamps, it would be quite a challenge IMHO.

Good luck amigos I hope you find that treasure!
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good evening: I have been reading this series and noticed that my friend SWr posted-->

"That's the norm for a legend, right? Deep in the swamp where nobody lived yadda-yadda."
~~~~~~~~~~

You are obviously correct my friend, since the logical place would be the town square. Who would want to go where no-one is to bury something of value?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Hello Realde. Long time no see.