Stone Tablets-Most likely planted fakes.

[UncleMatt]

I have to say, I've also found researching treasure tales really teaches me a lot about history, a treasure in and of itself.

 

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[deducer]

As a follow up to my previous post, many people enjoy treasure tales merely as a form of entertainment. Both reading and engaging in the search. I love spending time up in the high Rockies, and looking around for such things gives me an added layer of fun while up there. I doubt I will ever find anything, its just fun. I also entertain my niece and nephew with these tales, and they have fun joining in the search as well.

It is a form of entertainment and storytelling, and has its roots in very old mythology, a primal story that has existed since the dawn of time: the metaphor of man searching for, or going on a quest to find something to complete himself, be it truth, God, material wealth, or something that was missing.

Man setting out on a quest is a story we all identify with, on a very deep primal level, it answers to a primordial instinct that is as old as we are, and probably began with when we first searched for food. For those reasons, treasure stories will always be hugely popular and very relevant to culture.

The Treasure Hunt in Life, Mythology, and Literature

The symbolism of gold, as has been said above, is not only physical but also spiritual. In many mythologies around the world, gold is connected with the sun: it shines with its own eternal light, and does not fade or tarnish. This light also symbolizes purity, wisdom, nobility, honor, godliness, enlightenment and even immortality.

The general idea symbolized by these qualities is that of Truth. In David Hant’s “Tale of a Magician,” there is a short story of such a quest. A man sets out to look for treasure, wanders for twenty years on the track of various clues that lead him around the world, and finally ends up in a place not far from the one he set out from. There he finds a stone, which he must lift. Under it he finds letters spelling the word Truth. Only then does he realize that Truth is the most precious thing in the world. This story is reminiscent of a modern game called Treasure Hunt, in which various clues lead the searchers to finding some kind of true historical fact.

 

[sdcfia]

It is a form of entertainment and storytelling, and has its roots in very old mythology, a primal story that has existed since the dawn of time: the metaphor of man searching for, or going on a quest to find something to complete himself, be it truth, God, material wealth, or something that was missing. <cut>

This is the key point in my view. Who are the delusional ones - those who accept their station in life, or those who are seeking something more?

 

[gollum]

Father Charles Polzer SJ was a Jesuit Priest whose main lot in life was to ensure that Father Eusebio Kino SJ was Canonized. He was a very good man that NEVER saw ANYTHING relating to Jesuit Wealth that was authentic (in his opinion). Maybe a little conflict of interest?

Also in 1986, Polzer heard that Tayopa had been found. He and a friend flew to Mexico and attempted to claim it for the Church (after years of saying the Jesuits owned no mines and they were a poor Order). He was so obnoxious about it, the Mexicans forced him off the site. His luggage was lost on the trip home.

Father Polzer would not have been able to tell a hand carved stone map from a machine carved stone map. He did not have either the experience nor education for it. I have more experience than Father Polzer in examining stone monuments, symbols, and artifacts. I was allowed to examine the Stone Maps with a digital microscope in 2010. I had them all in a dark room, and used several types of lighting along with a digital microscope. I found no traces of metal in the grooves, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that would tell me they were in any way modern. Here are a couple of pics in case you don't believe me:



Just a couple of over 4 gigabytes of hi-resolution pictures. Here is one of the digital scope pics of the "B" in CABOLLO on the Horse/Priest Stone:



The people I know that worked at the AZ Mining and Minerals Museum told me that nobody knew for certain. That there were many stories floating around about them.

Anybody is free to believe anything and anybody they choose. When I speak, its mostly not from what I have been told by someone, I mostly speak from personal knowledge of a subject.

Mike

 

[deducer]

This is the key point in my view. Who are the delusional ones - those who accept their station in life, or those who are seeking something more?

I would say it's far better to be actively searching for something, asking questions, investigating, than "accepting one's station in life," which to me implies, in Thoreau's words, "a life of quiet desperation."

 

[gollum]

Deducer,

I agree with you to a point. Father Polzer I don't believe was there to specifically filter that information. He was there to filter out ANYTHING that might stand in the way of Father Kino being Canonized. If Kino knew about Jesuit Mines and Mining activities, as well as anything else they may have been involved in that wasn't strictly allowed, it may overshadow his becoming a Saint. Father Polzer also didn't want people going to all the Jesuit Mission Sites and digging them up looking for treasures. I don't believe there was anything dastardly in what Polzer was there to do. A bit shady, but not dastardly. HAHAHA

Mike

 

[gollum]

SDCFIA,

The entire history of the Stone Map/Peralta association is for several reasons. The Peralta Family was from Mexico. They were known to have mines in the Supers. The Stone Maps were found on the route from Mexico into the Supers. The two names found on the Horse/Priest Stone were also the names of the two most well known Peraltas. PEDRO; found on the horse's flank, and MIGUEL; found on the top edge of the Stone.



The maps were representative of the Superstition Mountains. The Peralta/Gonzalez Mines were hidden, and the maps looked like maps to hidden mines. It was a logical assumption, but I agree with you that it was an incorrect assumption. I believe the Stone Maps are much older than 1847. I believe they date to about 1765-1766.

Mike

 

[motel6.5]

Mr. Gollum, I give you a heads up for all the time youve put into the map stones, I have not seen them in person, only photos on the internet. My opinons are only thin based theorys, while yours are more rock solid due to your due diligance and personal interest drive to find out more history on the stones. I would like to ask your opinon on why the stone maps were engraved on such Large and Heavy stones. Possibly do you think they were being made for a map room in some secret mission room,or some underground chapel connected to a yet unidentifed mine.

 

[UncleMatt]

I agree motel6.5! I always appreciate the hard data Gollum brings to the table here.

 

[Hal Croves]

Father Charles Polzer SJ was a Jesuit Priest whose main lot in life was to ensure that Father Eusebio Kino SJ was Canonized. He was a very good man that NEVER saw ANYTHING relating to Jesuit Wealth that was authentic (in his opinion). Maybe a little conflict of interest?

Also in 1986, Polzer heard that Tayopa had been found. He and a friend flew to Mexico and attempted to claim it for the Church (after years of saying the Jesuits owned no mines and they were a poor Order). He was so obnoxious about it, the Mexicans forced him off the site. His luggage was lost on the trip home.

Father Polzer would not have been able to tell a hand carved stone map from a machine carved stone map. He did not have either the experience nor education for it. I have more experience than Father Polzer in examining stone monuments, symbols, and artifacts. I was allowed to examine the Stone Maps with a digital microscope in 2010. I had them all in a dark room, and used several types of lighting along with a digital microscope. I found no traces of metal in the grooves, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that would tell me they were in any way modern. Here are a couple of pics in case you don't believe me:

View attachment 1122814 View attachment 1122816 View attachment 1122815

Just a couple of over 4 gigabytes of hi-resolution pictures. Here is one of the digital scope pics of the "B" in CABOLLO on the Horse/Priest Stone:

View attachment 1122817

The people I know that worked at the AZ Mining and Minerals Museum told me that nobody knew for certain. That there were many stories floating around about them.

Anybody is free to believe anything and anybody they choose. When I speak, its mostly not from what I have been told by someone, I mostly speak from personal knowledge of a subject.

Mike

Gollum,
Will you post an example photo of the tool(s) that you believe was/were used to make the stone inscriptions?
Will you explain what materials these tools were made from?
Will you also explain exactly how you believe they were carved based on the tools that you believe were used. The technique, process from start to end.
Will you address Polzers real concerns with the stones? What did he see on the stones that led him to believe they were a hoax? If you know, will you post a photograph of the example?


Also, will you post a few hi-res magnified images of the ends of lines. Like the end (tip) of the horses tail or the crescent shapes. Any example where the lines begins narrow and shallow to where they become deeper & wider.


It seems that you have come to the conclusion that a modern mechanical tool would have left behind traces of metal in the inscription. Are you suggesting that a hand carved stone, completed with traditional sculpting tools & technique would not leave behind traces of tool metal?


You admitted finding no trace of metal in your examination of the stones. Assuming that you were careful and examined the entire collection, how is this possible?


You are one of the brightest on this site and no doubt you see where I am going with this line of questioning.
However, the argument that you are making here is seriously flawed. No disrespect intended.


Thanks gollum!

 

[motel6.5]

Just possibly the sandstone tablet was pre-engraved on a cliff wall as I have seen in person before and somebody cut it out like you would a piece of cake. As a matter of fact the horse on the tablet is very similar to one I saw on a high cliff wall in California. Quite possible one tool used could be a sharp fire heated pointed wood drill. The letters seem a bit crude, but the horse has a finer detail to it.

 

[Hal Croves]

Just possibly the sandstone tablet was pre-engraved on a cliff wall as I have seen in person before and somebody cut it out like you would a piece of cake. As a matter of fact the horse on the tablet is very similar to one I saw on a high cliff wall in California. Quite possible one tool used could be a sharp fire heated pointed wood drill. The letters seem a bit crude, but the horse has a finer detail to it.

Any chance that you have a photograph of this horse carving on the cliff? If it truly is similar in design, it would be fascinating to see in place and hopefully unmolested.

If the stones date to 1765-66 , as gollum suggests, why would they be using hardened wood to carve the stones?

 

[motel6.5]

Hal, At the time I spotted the images on the cliff wall I was following a stagecoach trail
and I did not have a camera with me. As far as the wood drill part of my statement goes
I know that the Peraltas used wood logs with notched steps inside their mines as they went
deeper.I sure they also had handmade wooden tools for their everyday mineing
activitys.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, At the time I spotted the images on the cliff wall I was following a stagecoach trail
and I did not have a camera with me. As far as the wood drill part of my statement goes
I know that the Peraltas used wood logs with notched steps inside their mines as they went
deeper.

If you ever get a chance to photograph it, it would be an amazing thing to compare.
Chances are the notches were cut with a metal tool.
People are generally lazy and tend to search for the easiest path.

But the absence of any trace of tool metal is something to consider.

Antler might work but there would be signs of "pecking". I didn't get that close.

Conclusion, the metal that was there has since been remove by washing or natural erosion or, metal was not used.

I will put money on it that gollum is correct in his examination as there should be no trace of tool metal found in the inscriptions.

 

[releventchair]

Father Charles Polzer SJ was a Jesuit Priest whose main lot in life was to ensure that Father Eusebio Kino SJ was Canonized. He was a very good man that NEVER saw ANYTHING relating to Jesuit Wealth that was authentic (in his opinion). Maybe a little conflict of interest?

Also in 1986, Polzer heard that Tayopa had been found. He and a friend flew to Mexico and attempted to claim it for the Church (after years of saying the Jesuits owned no mines and they were a poor Order). He was so obnoxious about it, the Mexicans forced him off the site. His luggage was lost on the trip home.

Father Polzer would not have been able to tell a hand carved stone map from a machine carved stone map. He did not have either the experience nor education for it. I have more experience than Father Polzer in examining stone monuments, symbols, and artifacts. I was allowed to examine the Stone Maps with a digital microscope in 2010. I had them all in a dark room, and used several types of lighting along with a digital microscope. I found no traces of metal in the grooves, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that would tell me they were in any way modern. Here are a couple of pics in case you don't believe me:

View attachment 1122814 View attachment 1122816 View attachment 1122815

Just a couple of over 4 gigabytes of hi-resolution pictures. Here is one of the digital scope pics of the "B" in CABOLLO on the Horse/Priest Stone:

View attachment 1122817

The people I know that worked at the AZ Mining and Minerals Museum told me that nobody knew for certain. That there were many stories floating around about them.

Anybody is free to believe anything and anybody they choose. When I speak, its mostly not from what I have been told by someone, I mostly speak from personal knowledge of a subject.

Mike

Carving falls under the old rule that the cutting tool must be harder than what is being cut.
Lined lettering is hard to keep straight with out lines above and below to guide. Removed after work is finished on some projects.
Sandstone a tolerable medium using any harder lithic material; not sure how far a bone needle would last, with preference depending on local availability or something reserved/carried perhaps.

 

[Hal Croves]

Carving falls under the old rule that the cutting tool must be harder than what is being cut.
Lined lettering is hard to keep straight with out lines above and below to guide. Removed after work is finished on some projects.
Sandstone a tolerable medium using any harder lithic material; not sure how far a bone needle would last, with preference depending on local availability or something reserved/carried perhaps.

Were people in this area still carrying and using stone tools in 1847 or even 1766?

 

[releventchair]

Were people in this area still carrying and using stone tools in 1847 or even 1766?

Fair question. Some graffiti over time may be from what was available rather than dulling a knife.
We know Ishi was still working with stone in California in 1911.

 

[motel6.5]

Hal, forgot about stone tools,an absoulute possibly, also the Spanish Silver miners in other parts of
Mexico were known to make silver mule shoes,silver sword hilts and guards, so why not certain tools
like carving type, dinnerware,knives,forks,spoons,etc....Any ideas where the sandstone came from
like a certain geologic area, might help to narrow down the mysrery.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, forgot about stone tools,an absoulute possibly, also the Spanish Silver miners in other parts of
Mexico were known to make silver mule shoes,silver sword hilts and guards, so why not certain tools
like carving type, dinnerware,knives,forks,spoons,etc....Any ideas where the sandstone came from
like a certain geologic area, might help to narrow down the mysrery.

I will let someone else tell you where the material was sourced. It's not entirely in agreement. When they do I will show you that Odd Halseth, a brilliant Don, by his own testimony was there. That's more than most theories.

 

[gollum]

First, as I have stated from day one, that since there is no provenance on the Stone Maps (100%) before 1949, to be intellectually honest with myself and everybody else, I cannot discount the possibility of them being modern carvings. Anybody that says they know 100% whether the Stone Maps are modern or hundreds of years old is full of **it. Between Larry, Garry, and myself, we pretty much have the entire history of the Stone Maps from 1949 onward settled. To judge on what came before, I can only go by the actions of the owners and my personal character judgement based on those actions.

There are three possibilities of how Travis Tumlinson came by the Stone Maps:

1. He found them just like he said he did. Just North of the 60 at Florence Junction.

The story he told his wife and his Uncle Robert was that he found the Stone Maps when he was trying to get a good view of Weaver's Needle for a picture . He even drew a map for his Uncle Robert showing exactly where he found them. He took a picture of three of the stones on his bumper right after he found them. After that picture was taken, he took the stones to the house of his friend in Apache Junction Charlie Miller. Miller later told another AJ Local Al Reser, that when Tumlinson brought the stones to his house, he helped clean them. He said that there were still little roots growing inside the grooves. Al Reser later went to the spot where Tumlinson said he found the stones and claimed to have found The Latin Heart as well.

2. His Grandfather John "Pegleg" Tumlinson (a well known treasure hunter around the turn of the century) got them from a person that stole them from the Mission at Arizpe, Mexico.

If this is true, then it means the Latin Heart was not real, but this possibility answers a lot of questions regarding why the maps were put on stone. The story goes that in the last few years before their suppression, the Jesuits hid all their wealth in the New World. I believe that each rectorate was responsible for hiding its own wealth, which is why we have so many Jesuit Treasure Stories from so many different places. I think that one of the larger hiding places was in the far Northern Reach of the Jesuits of 1765-6; The Superstitions. The Jesuits had already been arrested, kicked out of, and suppressed by first the Portuguese (1759) and the French (1764). It was only a matter of time before the Spanish followed suit. When the Jesuits were arrested, they were ONLY allowed to keep the clothes on their backs, their Breviaries, and a copy of Sir Thomas A Kempis' Book "An Imitation of Christ". The Spanish knew how much wealth the Jesuits had. The day of their Spanish Suppression (26 June 1767), when the Spaniards rushed into all the Jesuit Colegios and Missions, they tore the places up looking for hidden treasure. If any of the Jesuits had been carrying any maps, they would most definitely have been found. The Jesuits knew what was coming, but they didn't know how long it might be before they could get back to the New World to recover their wealth. Maps on parchment or vellum are subject to be easily destroyed. Chewed by rats. Destroyed by floods or fires. It might have been 200 years before the Jesuits could reclaim their treasure. They needed maps that could last that long. Stone Maps would last forever, but where to put them so a Jesuit 200 years later could easily find them and get the wealth back to the Church/Order? Well, locally important people are entombed inside Churches all over the world. Pimeria Alta was no exception. Inside every church, are many prominent locals' tombs. I think the Stone Maps were hidden by covering the tomb of a prominent local from Arizpe. That is why there is a Cross on the back of one and the word "DON" on the back of another. A Spaniard even looking for hidden treasure would not disturb the tomb of a dead man. The Stone Maps stayed safe there until they repaved the floor of the Church/Mission in the late 1800s. The maps were found, and they made their way to a famous Texas Treasure Hunter (Pegleg Tumlinson).

3. He made them

I put #3 at a very distant third place because of what Travis did with the Stone Maps while he owned them. His actions are in NO WAY indicative of someone who hoaxed the Stone Maps for profit or fame. To make a long story short, in the twelve (12) years that he owned the Stone Maps, he never attempted to sell them. In the twelve (12) years that he owned the Stone Maps, he mostly kept their existence a secret. He never attempted to get his name in any magazines or newspapers. He only showed them to a very few people that he knew well. His daughter Janie told me in no uncertain terms that her dad in no way hoaxed the Stone Maps.


Hal,

Any metal carving tool (old or new) would have left little traces (if the stones hadn't been cleaned many times). I was hoping to find some traces of metal, because we could tentatively date the stones by the makeup of the metal used to carve them. We could easily tell the difference between a tiny chip of modern carbon steel versus a chip of 18th century softer steel.

1. Any type of metal tool. The Stone Maps have been cleaned so many times since they were found (supposedly) in 1949, that there is a good chance any of the original material used to carve them is long washed away.

2. Any type of metal is harder than any of the stones.

3. I think the stones were ground smooth. The maps were drawn on them. Something small was used to start the groove by scratching along the lines. Then, something bigger was used to open the grooves up some. I use the term scratching rather than carving or engraving because it looks like a tool was placed on the surface. Pressure was put on it, and it was dragged toward the engraver in a scratching motion. Someone carefully using a Dremel would not carve a line by jumping out of the groove:



I can't tell you why exactly Father Polzer SJ said they were fakes. Maybe Chlsbrns has more info on that. I can only say that ANYTHING he was ever shown that supposedly came from Jesuit wealth, he said was a fake. I know several people that personally knew the man that say he was a great person. He just was a Jesuit Wealth Denier. My guess is that since he publicly stated in no uncertain terms that there are no Jesuit Treasures, then anything that pointed that way had to be fake.

Also, if you spend a lot of time looking at the Stones, it looks like there are two sets of carvings on them. One set deeply grooved, and another set of shallower carvings. Tumlinson told a friend of his that he had added carvings to the Stones so it would throw off anybody that might steal them from him. He never gave any details about what carvings he added, unfortunately.

See what looks like two different sets of carvings:



The math equation is shallow and the map parts are deeper and look older.

Mike