Stone Tablets-Most likely planted fakes.

[Rick4570]

have the stone maps ever been authenicated by using the carbon dating method? or any method at all?

 

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[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Your post is not clear on who said what. For the sake of clarity I am cleaning up this quote back to remove the things you included without format, leaving just your original words.

It is an opinion. Your open response addressed it as if it were being proclaimed as fact.

Let us back up on this. What is it you claim was 'my opinion'? Pull up the full post of mine and point at it so I know what you are on about.

Never, but I have posted my ideas and solution to the stones and if you have not read them, you could not have formed an educated opinion. Unless you have and disagree.

That ^ leads me to believe you didn't understand my first post. I call you out on faulty logic. Did you catch that part? The rest of our exchange so far has been about you going off on tangents and running circles around diversions - and me trying to point you back on track.

Coming to the conclusion that a stone peppered with documented treasure symbols, is anything other than an encrypted record of directions, is in my opinion, illogical. Hoax or no hoax, you have a language laid out before you. Ignoring that obvious fact is in my opinion, a waste of ones time.

Is that the argument position you wish to impute onto me? When did I state any conclusion along those lines? What actually happened there is I again pointed out another fallacy of your argument. Anyway, about what you just said ... someone carves on a rock and and your claim is 'you have a language laid out before you.' ? Seriously? do you feel the same way about the scribbles on money? Is my post here 'a language laid out before you.' ?

The boundary of the SWA is clear and it is within those limits that I define the "Superstitions". This is because my placement of the stones is almost entirely within this area. Almost. So for me, the Superstition is the defined Wilderness Area, but only because my search is there. It could include whatever you want it to include I guess as it is only a name. Names change.

And for the sake of a particular discussion you can't be changing definitions. Now we know to what area your claim applies. Good progress So, can you prove that there is mineralization sufficient to support economically recoverable quantities of gold in the SWA, or would you like to pick some other definition of 'gold' ? (Not trying to box you in on 'gold', just say what you meant if I didn't guess right.)

If I wanted gold I would have followed Kurt into the range. He has at least had some luck despite what is written about him on TNet. And I have warned readers before, if I find it first, the DLM, I will document it, sample it, any conceal it for good.. out of spite. That would be a real pisser.

Not sure how that ^ applies... Kurt who? What range? Spite? That sounds like it could eat a guy up from the inside ....

At this point I am still unclear as to what you believe.

Not surprising.

 

[djui5]

have the stone maps ever been authenicated by using the carbon dating method? or any method at all?

Great question Rick. Not to my knowledge on the carbon dating. The maps have been subjected to authentication by a couple of people. The trouble always was that no one really knows exactly which maps are the originals. Copies have been made, and no one kept track of which one was which. This is what I've been told. Not that it's worth much

 

[Hal Croves]

Your post is not clear on who said what. For the sake of clarity I am cleaning up this quote back to remove the things you included without format, leaving just your original words. Let us back up on this. What is it you claim was 'my opinion'? Pull up the full post of mine and point at it so I know what you are on about. That ^ leads me to believe you didn't understand my first post. I call you out on faulty logic. Did you catch that part? The rest of our exchange so far has been about you going off on tangents and running circles around diversions - and me trying to point you back on track. Is that the argument position you wish to impute onto me? When did I state any conclusion along those lines? What actually happened there is I again pointed out another fallacy of your argument. Anyway, about what you just said ... someone carves on a rock and and your claim is 'you have a language laid out before you.' ? Seriously? do you feel the same way about the scribbles on money? Is my post here 'a language laid out before you.' ? And for the sake of a particular discussion you can't be changing definitions. Now we know to what area your claim applies. Good progress So, can you prove that there is mineralization sufficient to support economically recoverable quantities of gold in the SWA, or would you like to pick some other definition of 'gold' ? (Not trying to box you in on 'gold', just say what you meant if I didn't guess right.) Not sure how that ^ applies... Kurt who? What range? Spite? That sounds like it could eat a guy up from the inside ....

Not surprising.

I think the disconnect came when you thought "it was an opinion" was me writing about you. It was my opinion. You responded as if I were claiming a known fact when I was simply writing my opinion, based on my experience. You also claim that the symbols on the rock are a fallacy? This shows that you are either wholly ignorant to the history of the symbols or deliberately misrepresenting their existence and use. Since I see no reason why you would intentionally skew history, perhaps you should pick up a book and read about the language of treasure symbols . Yes, scribbles on greenbacks are a form of communication. As are cereal boxes, billboards, highway signs, and treasure symbols.

Economically recoverable quantities of gold? Heads up. It's a wilderness area.
And "out of spite" is a comedic reference to a Seinfield episode. But I was serious.

 

[Loke]

have the stone maps ever been authenicated by using the carbon dating method? or any method at all?

I might be wrong, but I believe radio-carbon dating requires some kind of organic matter ...
Again - minerals may be dateable, if they contain carbon!
But again - what help is it to date the age of the rocks themselves?
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating)

Rick - by-the-way - welcome to TN! ;-)

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I think the disconnect came when you thought

Did you just claim to know what I think?

"it was an opinion" was me writing about you.

Pretty unlikely, given that the the phrase you quote: " it was an opinion" doesn't occur in this thread until your use in post #44 quoted here. You can't just make up quotes and argue from them. Well ... not successfully anyway I don't have a clue what you mean, please go back and start that part over based in reality, K?

It was my opinion. You responded as if I were claiming a known fact when I was simply writing my opinion, based on my experience.

Please point out where this occurred. How can I defend if you can't articulate what you are trying to relay?

You also claim that the symbols on the rock are a fallacy?

Your logic is fallacious. And your claim :'you have a language laid out before you.' is insane, either that or completely meaningless if you want to semantically argue that any symbology no matter how obscure equates to and is defined as 'you have a language laid out before you.'.

This shows that you are either wholly ignorant to the history of the symbols or deliberately misrepresenting their existence and use.

Actually, no. Nothing you have proffered logically follows. You have yet to show anything.

Since I see no reason that you would intentionally skew history, perhaps you should pick up a book and read about the language of treasure symbols .

Nice- a backhanded way to claim I 'skew history'. Skew history? Me? how? When? Intentionally or other wise! I defy you to back that up.

Yes, scribbles on greenbacks are a form of communication.

Of course they are, since when was this about 'communication' instead of what you claimed: 'you have a language laid out before you.' ?

As are cereal boxes, billboards, highway signs, and treasure symbols.

ditto x 4

Economically recoverable quantities of gold? Heads up. It's a wilderness area.

So then, what did you mean with your claim 'There is gold in the Superstition if that is what you are after. ' ??

And "out of spite" is a comedic reference to a Seinfield episode. But I was serious.

I'll guess no one is afraid.

 

[Rick4570]

I might be wrong, but I believe radio-carbon dating requires some kind of organic matter ...
Again - minerals may be dateable, if they contain carbon!
But again - what help is it to date the age of the rocks themselves?
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating)

Rick - by-the-way - welcome to TN! ;-)

thanks for the welcome Loke. has anyone figured out what area in arizona that the stone material came from to make the maps?

 

[sdcfia]

"The ability to identify logical fallacies in the arguments of others, and to avoid them in one’s own arguments, is both valuable and increasingly rare. Fallacious reasoning keeps us from knowing the truth, and the inability to think critically makes us vulnerable to manipulation by those skilled in the art of rhetoric."
Logical Fallacies

ConceptualizedNetherlandr, you are a rarity because you do understand the proper method of seeking the truth of an issue, if the truth is available. It's painfully evident that a large majority of us humans fit into the underlined statement in the above quote. When you point out to a person that their argument is fallacious, chances are they have no idea what you're saying - and worse, they don't care. This won't make you popular in this forum, but I appreciate that you are at least trying to keep things real. Good luck.

 

[Hal Croves]

Did you just claim to know what I think? Pretty unlikely, given that the the phrase you quote: " it was an opinion" doesn't occur in this thread until your use in post #44 quoted here. You can't just make up quotes and argue from them. Well ... not successfully anyway I don't have a clue what you mean, please go back and start that part over based in reality, K? Please point out where this occurred. How can I defend if you can't articulate what you are trying to relay? Your logic is fallacious. And your claim :'you have a language laid out before you.' is insane, either that or completely meaningless if you want to semantically argue that any symbology no matter how obscure equates to and is defined as 'you have a language laid out before you.'. Actually, no. Nothing you have proffered logically follows. You have yet to show anything. Nice- a backhanded way to claim I 'skew history'. Skew history? Me? how? When? Intentionally or other wise! I defy you to back that up. Of course they are, since when was this about 'communication' instead of what you claimed: 'you have a language laid out before you.' ? ditto x 4 So then, what did you mean with your claim 'There is gold in the Superstition if that is what you are after. ' ??
I'll guess no one is afraid.

I want to get this straight because I am still struggling to understand you. This is obvious in your frustration. You seem to keep returning to the logic involved in my argument or, lack there of. That my ideas are flawed or the argument fallacious. And you may turn out to be correct.


But, before you or anyone reading this can dismiss the belief that we are looking at treasure symbols, you would have to learn the system, the language (it is a language) to some degree of competency. Have you done the research? Did you eliminate the possibility based on some critical evaluation? I did not coin the phrase "the language of treasure symbols". It's been floating around for a long time. Funny how a key work on the subject was published just around the time the stones were made public. Have you read the three important titles on treasure symbols? Were you able to find all three? Based on your ignorance of the subject I am guessing that you have not. Am I wrong?


So, returning to your need for logic. We have a set of stones with a questionable discovery story. They are covered with symbols and word structures that correlate almost entirely to the language of treasure symbol. That is a fact. Now, if I understand you correctly, and I am not sure that I do, you insist that the symbols are arbitrary, with no significance, and that perhaps the stones were made by an individual killing time, with no message or communication to be found in their arrangement. If this is really your belief, and at this point I simply can't tell, it is terribly misguided and uninformed.


As I tried to explain in the beginning, my understanding of the stones is based on my research, in books and on the ground. The stones IMO are a map that lead to some unknown thing or things. I am guessing that it is archeological in nature. The directions are written in the language of treasure symbols. They were made sometime before their discovery in 49(?) but not before 1925ish. They were made using an aerial photograph and an overlay. I believe that they we made by a Don named Odd Halseth.


Now before you respond with a list of generalized one liners, why not go back and look at my many posts where I offer examples and explanations. Then read a book or two on treasure symbols if you can find them.


When you have done these things, come back and tell us why and where my approach is flawed. Forget the reasoning since we already disagree on that. I challenge you to dissect my theory, show exactly where and why it's flawed and to give clear examples. You may reuse any quote or image that I have posted.


You most likely will not accept the challenge because it means a commitment of time and energy. It would also mean putting aside your prejudices and allowing for the possibility that you could be wrong. That's a tall order for someone with your mindset.

I want you to read this and tell me what it means to you, logically, without sarcasm. I have quite a bit of faith in this mans knowledge of the SWA.

A few years back, I had the privilege of showing my overlay to an archeologist overseeing the SWA. He dismissed the stones as a hoax but almost as a second thought, he pointed out that at least one of the symbols correlated to an important archeological site. An extremely old cave dwelling, prehistoric. He looked at me and said, "nice try". Meaning, I had knowledge of the site and used it to build my overlay. I did not know about the sites existence before he shared it. I think that he was sorry for saying anything by the time that I left.

So, I thanked him and left without his support for a film permit. I have never been to the site. It is on the Priest stone in my theory. This one treasure symbol, confirmed by someone in authority. The site is prehistoric and extremely fragile and I have not been there. It's also a dangerous climb.

Believing for a moment that I had no prior knowledge of this obscure site, is this coincidence? Is it logical to assume that it could be something more?

 

[chlsbrns]

So if I make a map with "treasure symbols" it must lead to treasure?

What if I make a map to a real treasure but do not use "treasure symbols?"

How about I make a map and leave it next to a paved road where it could be easily found? A map that leads people away from my mine.

Back in the Peralta days miners had knowledge of and used specific treasure symbols? They spent countless amounts of time and carved them into stone? Why? They were so dumb that they couldnt find their mines?

Lets take a poll! How many people here have cryptic maps with treasure symbols to their mines?

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
But, before you or anyone reading this can dismiss the belief that we are looking at treasure symbols, you would have to learn the system, the language (it is a language) to some degree of competency. Have you done the research? Did you eliminate the possibility based on some critical evaluation? I did not coin the phrase "the language of treasure symbols". It's been floating around for a long time. Funny how a key work on the subject was published just around the time the stones were made public. Have you read the three important titles on treasure symbols? Were you able to find all three? Based on your ignorance of the subject I am guessing that you have not. Am I wrong?
<cut>

I would be interested in your listing of the important works on treasure symbols. I own the supposedly highly-regarded works by Mahan and Kortejarvi, both of which were published in the 1960s and are the inspiration for the dozens of copycat works that have followed. Kenworthy published his different but ridiculous "king's code" material later. So, in a sense, a "language" is in the public domain, yes, but what is the provenance of this information? Certainly some of the material relates directly to alchemical and religious material, although nowhere has this been shown to relate to genuine treasure maps leading to verified treasure caches.

It's my opinion that legitimate treasure maps certainly exist, and the information contained on them is strictly proprietary, and certainly not drawn by using symbology drawn from common knowledge. Using well-known symbology on a treasure map would be, in a word, stupid. It's my belief that the "treasure map language" you refer to is merely convenient and recognizable disinformation used to prop up "lost mines and hidden treasure" legends which themselves are also of very questionable provenance.

I suspect there is something of great value secreted in the Salt/Gila region that has been carefully obfuscated by the Peralta Stones, Lost Dutchman, et al legends and their accompanying "treasure languages". There is plenty of testimony (hearsay) to support this stuff, but the results of 125 years of searching for the LDM and another 70 for the PSM speak for themselves. Lots of claims, hooting and hollering, but essentially exhaustive wild goose chases. I guess Sarge, who has allegedly recovered some placer in the region, at least has something to show for his efforts.

 

[Hal Croves]

So if I make a map with "treasure symbols" it must lead to treasure?

What if I make a map to a real treasure but do not use "treasure symbols?"

How about I make a map and leave it next to a paved road where it could be easily found? A map that leads people away from my mine.

Back in the Peralta days miners had knowledge of and used specific treasure symbols? They spent countless amounts of time and carved them into stone? Why? They were so dumb that they couldnt find their mines?

Lets take a poll! How many people here have cryptic maps with treasure symbols to their mines?

Why not define the word treasure? It means different things to different people.
If your map lead to a real treasure, it could be argued that you used your own cipher, your own treasure symbols.

What if you had a connection to the highways, it's development and promotion (tourism) and left them where you know they would eventually be found? Seems to have worked.

Yes, the system is quite old. It was used to cryptically find ones way back to a remote claim. Like a dialect, it varies with each user for security. Even when you learn the language, you still have to interpret how they were used. As it turns out, it's very, very difficult. After four years, I am still struggling to understand the final instruction.

If you are really interested you will find a book on the subject and read it. The people who carved the symbols were far from dumb. Greedy perhaps, but not dumb.

 

[chlsbrns]

Hal I think that you are here to play word games. Define treasure, really?

My map would be an x on a modern road map. One simple symbol.

Yes planted next to a paved road or not planted with the person claiming to find it being the person who made it.

In the time that it would have taken to make the maps someone could find another deposit. In the time that it would take to follow the stone map many new deposits could be found.

You have to be dumb if you need a detailed map to find your own mine. I don't read those kind of books as they are written by dreamers. I use USGS soil and sediment sample files that tell me exactly where there are large deposits of gold.

 

[Hal Croves]

Did you just claim to know what I think? Pretty unlikely, given that the the phrase you quote: " it was an opinion" doesn't occur in this thread until your use in post #44 quoted here. You can't just make up quotes and argue from them. Well ... not successfully anyway I don't have a clue what you mean, please go back and start that part over based in reality, K? Please point out where this occurred. How can I defend if you can't articulate what you are trying to relay? Your logic is fallacious. And your claim :'you have a language laid out before you.' is insane, either that or completely meaningless if you want to semantically argue that any symbology no matter how obscure equates to and is defined as 'you have a language laid out before you.'. Actually, no. Nothing you have proffered logically follows. You have yet to show anything. Nice- a backhanded way to claim I 'skew history'. Skew history? Me? how? When? Intentionally or other wise! I defy you to back that up. Of course they are, since when was this about 'communication' instead of what you claimed: 'you have a language laid out before you.' ? ditto x 4 So then, what did you mean with your claim 'There is gold in the Superstition if that is what you are after. ' ??
I'll guess no one is afraid.

Here is something that I think you will find interesting. About treasure hunting and American mythology, the psychology behind it.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal I think that you are here to play word games. Define treasure, really?

My map would be an x on a modern road map. One simple symbol.

Yes planted next to a paved road or not planted with the person claiming to find it being the person who made it.

In the time that it would have taken to make the maps someone could find another deposit. In the time that it would take to follow the stone map many new deposits could be found.

You have to be dumb if you need a detailed map to find your own mine. I don't read those kind of books as they are written by dreamers. I use USGS soil and sediment sample files that tell me exactly where there are large deposits of gold.

Word games? I hope it's more important than word games. You are assuming that treasure means the same thing to everyone. You might define it as a cache of gold bars, or a rich gold vein, or stack of priceless pottery and cultural artifacts or a hand full of Christmas card like paintings. Some might describe it as a thing of historical significance, archeological or spiritual.

About your road map. What if you dropped it, without knowing. Anyone could pick it up and find their way straight to your hidden mine. This is the point. Your can leave marks everywhere. Unless you know what they mean, they are useless. Put your "X" five hundred feet exactly due east of your mine, on your map, and you have created a cypher. Just remember to adjust 500 feet west when you return. It's not complicated.

It sounds like you are having luck with the USGS soil samples. I would keep with it.

 

[deducer]

He is something that I think you will find interesting. About treasure hunting and American mythology, the psychology behind it.

Do you have the rest of the article? I would like to read the rest of it.

 

[Hal Croves]

Do you have the rest of the article? I would like to read the rest of it.

You have mail.

 

[UncleMatt]

My degree is in Psychology, and I too recognize many elements all treasure tales have in common: 1) Treasure/cache/mine/ore site claims to be found 2) Those are then claimed to be lost (often due to the action of Natives or natural elements 3) People decide to believe in the tale, no matter the lack of evidence to support such belief 4) The searching begins, and often never ends with success.

It seems there are also a limited number of reasons such tales are created and believed to begin with 1) People without hope of wealth cling to the idea of becoming wealthy 2) tales are spread to draw people to an area for economic reasons (to draw in tourists) 3) People desire to elevate their status by claiming to know things that are not known by others 4) People make money from selling stories to media or the sale of maps 5) Delusions brought on by environmental factors or mental illness.

If I missed any, please fill in the blanks

 

[UncleMatt]

As a follow up to my previous post, many people enjoy treasure tales merely as a form of entertainment. Both reading and engaging in the search. I love spending time up in the high Rockies, and looking around for such things gives me an added layer of fun while up there. I doubt I will ever find anything, its just fun. I also entertain my niece and nephew with these tales, and they have fun joining in the search as well.

 

[motel6.5]

You forgot Common Sense #13
Healthy outdoor trekking, planning a treasure hunt is stimulateing, watching the sun go down over the Military Trail
from the Duthmans secret hidden valley,makeing a camp fire at night then enjoying a cup of coffee with Brandy
and a bowl of beans and french bread.Finding a Gold coin that Geranimo dropped while fleeing from the Horse
Soldiers, finding a cave and digging up Spanish relics from underneath its floor,did I miss anything of course i did
others can fill in the rest.Bottom line,Treasure hunting is healthy.stimulateing,brainstorming,all detective work,
nothing in any hobby could be better.