Spain suing Odyssey...

[ivan salis]

ah ---the famous "tresspasser's will be shot"---since he had to tresspass to get to the house to "live" in it in the first place--- he had to "break" the law to live there---a criminal can not profit by his crime is a basic "rule" of the law---(to allow otherwise is to condone crime and thus promote lawless behavior) thus the "home owner " has the lawful rights to the property plus the home owner has had to have paid the property "taxes" on the property and is thus the "legal" owner of record--the upkeep and (so called) improvements?---well the upkeep can be considered a form of "rent" and the "so called improvements " were neither request nor desired by the owner and as a matter of fact might be lessing rather improving the value of the property depending on the type and quality of the workmanship---"squarters rights" be damned--- I'D have a 12 gauge in one hand & myproperty deed in the other---and would tell em " you're leaving my property -- will it be by you walking off it peacefully or will you need to be carried off it ? "--nuff said ---Ivan

 

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[ivan salis]

if by owned you mean taken over by force and using the locals as forced labor --then yes spain owned land in the new world ---just like nazi germany "owned" france and most of europe at one time---and the stuff the Nazi's "looted" from the countries that they "took over" belonged to them if you follow that line of reasoning---- however most folks today say "the stuff" the nazi's took belongs rightfully to those it was taken from in the "taken over" countries---Ivan

 

[old man]

Salvor 6, The Dominican Republic doesn't recognize Spains claim to any of their wrecks either,

 

[Salvor6]

Old Man, I understand that since the Dominican Republic has no navy ships lost in other countries they can afford to ignore Spain's claims.

 

[old man]

Salvor 6, You're right about that. War graves I understand and agree with. The problem that I have with Spain is that they are claiming that every ship that they lost was some how a war grave. I think there should be a starting day for that kind of thinking. Say like anything after the start of WW1. The only ships spain seems to claim were either lost to Hurricanes or Pirates.

 

[SEAHUNTER]

Yes. Spain owned and sold land in the New World. Some land was taken from previous warring factions. Some they claimed without violence, as there were no inhabitants. And some, they came...they saw.... and they conquered. That is how things were done in 1622

[/quote]
That does not make it legally or morally right. Sixty years ago the Nazi's came and saw and conquered. They also bought and sold land in other countries and also looted the valuables, would you defend them also? What about Saddam Hussein when he attacked Kuwait, a country I believe Iran used to own. The spaniards who did these things were no more correct in their actions than the Nazi's or Saddam

 

[Peg Leg]

Does anyone know of a single Spanish treasure hunting operation going on in the U.S.
I do not know of a single one.
I wonder why.
They want everything but do not want to spend any effort to recover any of their NON-ABANDONED shipwrecks.
Peg Leg

 

[Darren in NC]

As Spez mentioned before, the past is a moot point. Nations have been conquering other nations for years - right or wrong, including the early settlers in the U.S. What matters now is whether Odyssey found their wreck in int'l waters. They said they have. Until official documentation is presented in court and we hear from the ruling, we're just making guesses. Nothing wrong with discussing it, but we all just have to wait like everyone else.

 

[jeff k]

Darren... Odyssey filed the location with the Court, but it's under seal.

 

[hmmm]

i think there is a lot more to this conspiracy then we common folk realise. I think Spain knows what they are doing and are not working alone on the big picture,20 th century pirates hmmm

 

[mariner]

Quote from SeaHunter
[/quote]
That does not make it legally or morally right. Sixty years ago the Nazi's came and saw and conquered. They also bought and sold land in other countries and also looted the valuables, would you defend them also? What about Saddam Hussein when he attacked Kuwait, a country I believe Iran used to own. The spaniards who did these things were no more correct in their actions than the Nazi's or Saddam
[/quote]

I think that Montezuma and the Aztecs were even worse than Hitler or Saddam in the attrocities they inflicted on the people they displaced in Mexico and on their neighbors. They made human sacrifices on a grand scale, cutting the beating hearts out of their victims while they were still alive.

I know the point you were making is that the changing standards of behavior over time does not make something right then that would be wrong today, but I wanted to re-emphasise that when viewing Spain's conquest of Mexico, don't fall into the PR/PC trap that the Aztecs were sweet innocents who had obtained their wealth by the sweat of their brows.

Cortes was far more benign than Montezuma.

Mariner

 

[SEAHUNTER]

My father used to tell me " Two wrongs don't make a right"

 

[Chagy]

MiamiHerald.com
Posted on Fri, Jul. 13, 2007
Florida treasurer hunter's ship seized
(AP) -- Spanish Civil Guards on Thursday heightened a battle over a $500 million treasure of gold and silver coins from a shipwreck when they seized a vessel belonging to a Tampa-based company.
The Ocean Alert was seized about 9 a.m. three miles off the southeastern coast and taken to the nearby port of Algeciras to be searched, the Civil Guard said.

The Civil Guard acted on an order of a Spanish judge who in June instructed police to seize two vessels of Odyssey Marine Exploration if they left the British colony of Gibraltar -- on Spain's southern tip -- and entered Spanish waters.

Odyssey, a treasure hunting company, said it had found the Colonial-era shipwreck on May 18, and the coins have been flown to the United States from Gibraltar.

Spain filed claims last month in a U.S. federal court over Odyssey's find, arguing that if the shipwrecked vessel was Spanish or was removed from its waters, the treasure belongs to Spain.

Odyssey insists the shipwreck was outside any country's territorial waters, but has not given its exact location or the ship's name.

According to a release from the company, Odyssey has provided a 109-page affidavit to authorities in the Spanish federal government, the Junta de Andalucia, the United Kingdom, Gibraltar and the United States detailing Odyssey's activities concerning the discovery.

''We were pleased to provide this information to the interested government officials to help clear up any confusion that has been created by inaccurate media reports,'' Odyssey co-founder Greg Stemm said in a news release. ``We always attempt to work with appropriate governments on shipwreck projects in which they may have an interest and look forward to addressing any issues of claims or legal jurisdiction related to the [shipwreck site] in the proper venue, which is U.S. federal court.''

In Britain, the find generated press reports that Odyssey had salvaged the wreck of the long-sought British vessel Merchant Royal, which sank in bad weather off England in 1641. Odyssey has not confirmed or denied these reports.

 

[jeff k]

EL FARO DE INFORMACION – SPAIN
July 16, 2007
The ‘Ocean Alert’ remains free to leave the Port

The lawyer of Odyssey qualified the incident as ”not very advisable”

JUANLU REYES/ALGECIRAS
The ship Ocean Alert, docked since last Thursday on the pier of Prince Felipe of the port of Algeciras, received yesterday permission to sail from the port installations after the Guardia Civil concluded the search of the boat yesterday, according to that sources in the Navy put forward early yesterday afternoon, information that later was confirmed by the Spanish lawyer for the company Odyssey Marine Exploration, José Luis Goñi, who stated to EL FARO INFORMACIÓN that the search ended “after they had searched without finding what they were looking for, that they were not going to find because there is nothing that blames the company” stated the lawyer, who confirmed the information that we had communicated in the last few days about the requisitioning of all the computers of the Ocean Alert, as well as the laptop computer of another of the lawyers of the company and the work material of the journalists that travel on the boat.

Goni, that stated the day of the seizure of the boat that the action of the Guardia Civil was “illegal”, confirmed in his statements with respect to the events that took place “in international waters”, he indicated, asked about if they will take new legal measures after what happened in the last few days, that from the company “we will assess our rights, as will I believe the professionals that traveled on that boat and those who had their private information put up for discovery”.

Conflict
The lawyer of Odyssey qualified the action of the Spanish Government as “not very advisable” and stated over the seizure operation that “everything is nonsense because it goes from the basis that the boat was found in international waters”, at the time that he stated that it is “pillaging” against a company. Further, he accused the Government of “satisfying a demagogy”. Goni added that “as a Spaniard, I am the first to complain” about the governmental attitude.

The boat remained yesterday in the Port at the close of this edition, awaiting the final permission that has to be given by the Port Authority for its departure. The crew, reported Goni, is already on the ship.

http://www.publicacionesdelsur.net/diarios/cadiz/faro/act_local/03diarios.htm

 

[spez401]

for someone bashing the media, and unsubstantiated accusations by parties with no knowledge or interest in this issue, you sure are feeding into the media hype and BS.

 

[ivan salis]

ding ding ding ---in the "red" corner we have "spain"--AKA as baseless speculation & greed and in the blue corner we have "odyssey"--AKA ---questionible tactics & not being "fully" open and transparnet and citing "security reasons" as to why-----ladies and "ahm" gentlemen put your wagers down--- Ivan

like watching two pit bulls fight over a ham bone.

 

[jeff k]

Pipi Sarmiento is a liar, and don't be surprised if he's sued for libel. Odyssey also has him on video shouting "f... you Americans, f... you Americans," from his boat last year while the Odyssey Explorer was working on the Sussex site. That should tell you something about his character.

 

[Cablava]

It’s about right although there are so many things we are only guessing at until more data is released.

I struggle with the lack of transparency with Odyssey and the British Government. Had this cargo come from the Far East of the Caribbean then you would not expect them to have any problem with their partner. But as this is supposed to have come from an area not to far from your partner’s doorstep and in an arena of ongoing operations on the Sussex then you would at least think that they would have told them of the up and coming event rather than grab the cargo and run to the protection of the US Courts. (It is possible the UK government was informed prior and I have just not read the statements).
It does not give confidence in the people running the company, what next are they capable of doing? It seems they choose to abandon the long extended search for the Sussex in favor of this smash and grab. They must have been aware that Spain would take a dim view of this, but they chose to have a bird in the hand. (and gamble on the law suit going their way). It also saves them from proving if there was ever any treasure on the Sussex as many people doubt, and even if their target was indeed the Sussex.

I should imagine the safest place for the cargo would to have been left on the seabed, also the cheapest place as they could have then negotiated with the owners of the cargo and ship a deal for the recovery of the cargo without having to spend millions of stock holders money to fight at least one sovereign state possible more, as you said others may follow, then comes the legal owners of the ship and cargo as well. And also kept the archaeologists happy with a planned recovery and examination. Look at their plan for the HMS Sussex very detailed why then would you just grab and run.

In International waters they have right to salvage and recover (pure salvage see below), but that does not mean that they own what they bring up, that is a very wide and complicated area of salvage. OMR qualify on 2 of the 3 conditions but was the ship in peril. Well not for a long time.



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There are two types of salvage, contract salvage and pure salvage. Contract salvage occurs when a contract is made prior to commencement of salvage operations, the amount of compensation is fixed and the salvor is paid regardless of whether the salvage is successful or not. When a ship or boat has been rescued or salvaged without prior agreement between the owner and salvor or an agreement is made but not for a fixed amount, this is known as pure salvage. In this case the salvor can legally claim recompense or a salvage claim. It is also pure salvage when the ship's master signs an open form salvage agreement with no fixed compensation. This is a contingency contract that leaves the value of the salvage operation to be decided at a later date and both parties agree to binding arbitration in the case of a dispute. The best-known open form is the Lloyd's Open Form salvage contract, which was developed by Lloyd's of London and states "no cure - no pay". Although this rule seems to the disadvantage of the owner of the ship, its purpose is to encourage potential salvors to risk their vessels and use their working time for the benefit of both themselves and the ship owner. In order for a claim to be awarded three requirements must be met: The vessel must be in peril, the services must be rendered voluntarily, in other words there is no contractual obligation, and finally the salvage must be successful.
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Of course this just an excert from one of the many Salvage law books and once beyond this statement its time for the law firms to make a fortune. So even if they prove to have acted in accordance with internation salvage law, they will spend years trying to prove it against the claiments still to come once we know what ship it is.

 

[Darren in NC]

Have you ever done something totally legit and someone interpreted your actions as offensive and even hostile? We all have. It happened to me this weekend with a friend. After I had a sit down with them and explained it, they realized they were wrong and saw it differently. I've been on the other side of that misunderstanding, too.

It does seem to me that some of you want Odyssey to fail or get caught in their perceived deceit. Why assume the worse until you get the whole story? Why does your ignorance of the whole story compel you to make them wrong? If the story comes out and I see they're wrong, then I'll be the first to be saddened and admit their wrongdoing. But until then, give them the benefit of the doubt until you know the whole story...even if it looks amiss now.

 

[jeff k]

swr... I know he's a liar because I've been watching AIS Live everyday since Feb 2006. While off Gibraltar the Odyssey Explorer never stopped in one place long enough to recover anything of substance, and she was constantly being watched by the Guardia Civil. The Ocean Alert was running survey lines off Gibraltar, and always outside of Spanish waters. The Alert does not have an ROV on board, so she could not have recovered anything. The only time the Explorer could have recovered the coins was when she was out in the Atlantic for over a month, and that was in international waters.

Here's a log of the ship movements into the Atlantic that a friend recorded, and keep in mind that Sarmiento has stated that the ships never left the Med area.

March 3 - Ocean Alert sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on March 30

March 23 - Odyssey Explorer sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 4

April 3 - Ocean Alert sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 15

April 6 - Odyssey Explorer sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 9

April 17 - Odyssey Explorer sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on May 12

April 28 - Ocean Alert sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 30